Billiard Blogger Needed
- Thread starter JAM
- Start date
Believe me, I know. I can take a page an edit it and edit it and edit it, and a day later, I want to edit it again. Writing comes easy for some people, but it sure ain't easy for folks like me. :embarrassed2:
A polished writer, however, is a rarity. 'Twas more my point. Sorry I was not more explicit.
I guess I'm not a good writer! :thumbup:
Mike:
Thanks for the reply and your thoughts. I've inserted my replies below...
Mike, I wasn't talking about the avertorial umbrella. I was talking specifically about blogging. Yes, blogs used in this way are just another form of avertorials. My point was not how blogs fit or go outside the advertorial umbrella, but rather how they fit in with the OP's original post; how businesses recognize their importance as tools on their commerce websites, but how they don't want to properly compensate those that blog for them. Blogs used in this way, to me, *are* professional writing. If you're writing for the purpose of representing a company and putting a spin on their products (without it looking like an out-and-out advertisement), it better be of professional caliber.
And I stand by what I mentioned about Jonathan Schwartz. He is recognized as the pioneer of what an "advertorial" blog is supposed to look like. (Others have tried it -- or rather, waffled with it -- and failed. Their attempts looked like out-and-out advertising or cheerleading.) Jonathan set a new standard with what he was doing; he blogged every day (he also wrote everything himself, unlike others in his position at other companies), and folks flocked to the Sun Microsystems website each morning with their coffee to see "what did Jonathan put up there today?" I was one of them.
Mike, I have no idea why you're bringing up this topic of grammar and "high school punctuation," because I certainly didn't mention anything of the sort. I *never* mention grammar or punctuation errors in someone's writing, unless it's *SO* bad that I can't read it. (There are certain things that push my buttons in other people's writing, but I keep those to myself. I consider it part of the "everyone, including myself, has habits or traits that annoy other people" thing.)
As for your statement of, "I'm not sure the people in this thread are qualified to determine who is a 'professional' writer," I strongly disagree. I think if you have the ability to read, you have the ability to judge what you read. Did you like it? Did it "ring" to you? Is the person saying something unique -- even if you don't agree with it -- in a way that you readily understand? (That latter part is key -- clarity is a trait that can either be born with [as in your Bill Simmons example below], or else taught/studied/practiced -- as in many "grown" writers. I consider myself in that latter camp.)
You've done some professional writing yourself, haven't you, Mike? And as you mention, having been an editor in charge of hiring freelancers, you yourself were in a position to judge and select writing you consider to be "professional," correct? So you *are* in a position to judge "professional" writing. And so am I. And so is The Hamster, and JAM, and Lou, and anyone else that takes the time to actually read, digest, and comment on what they just read. Because it is the writer's job to get his/her point across in an easily-understandable way to his/her target audience. It is not the audience's job to decipher bad writing, especially if it's outward-facing writing with a purpose in mind -- to sell product.
Mike, I'm a headlined author on several big works in the I.T. industry. After I completed these works, I was offered employment with the publishing company. I turned these opportunities down for various reasons (e.g. compensation was less than what I was making at the time; the hours/dedication/commitment was more than I could bear at the time; I'd have to write about things that didn't interest me [or that I was trying to get away from]; etc.). I don't write full time, nor do I want to. (I have much more to offer this world than be welded to a keyboard full-time.) I explain all this, because your notion of, "If you haven't got past the stage of freelancing you're not as good as you think or competitive with the real talent in the writing business" is INCORRECT. People make career choices; I made mine, and I stand by them.
This is an example of someone with natural raw writing talent, and -- this is key -- was looking to be found. There are many out there that are talented but don't want to be found. They may enjoy writing for the purposes of "distraction." Just because someone writes well, doesn't mean they want to do it full time. If they do, they will put themselves in the position to be "found."
Here you go again with the grammar and punctuation thing. Why? I never mentioned it. Nor did I imply that professional writing needs to arrive from the source in a polished form. They have copy editors for that.
If you're trying to combine your reply with something directed at someone else, do us both a favor, and target that where it needs to go -- at the person you mean to say this to. Not at me. I've personally spent enough years in this industry to have learned to pay more attention to *what* a person has to say, than the "packaging" the person uses to say it.
As for your notion of, "Real talent is something very far apart from the physical act of putting one word after another," I disagree again. Putting one word after another in an easily read and understood manner -- to get across an idea in a unique way -- is the very definition of writing talent. It's one thing to have ideas; it's quite another to be able to express them in a lucid and easily-understood way.
I thank you for the opportunity to engage your thoughts.
Regards,
-Sean
Thanks for the reply and your thoughts. I've inserted my replies below...
Mike, I wasn't talking about the avertorial umbrella. I was talking specifically about blogging. Yes, blogs used in this way are just another form of avertorials. My point was not how blogs fit or go outside the advertorial umbrella, but rather how they fit in with the OP's original post; how businesses recognize their importance as tools on their commerce websites, but how they don't want to properly compensate those that blog for them. Blogs used in this way, to me, *are* professional writing. If you're writing for the purpose of representing a company and putting a spin on their products (without it looking like an out-and-out advertisement), it better be of professional caliber.
And I stand by what I mentioned about Jonathan Schwartz. He is recognized as the pioneer of what an "advertorial" blog is supposed to look like. (Others have tried it -- or rather, waffled with it -- and failed. Their attempts looked like out-and-out advertising or cheerleading.) Jonathan set a new standard with what he was doing; he blogged every day (he also wrote everything himself, unlike others in his position at other companies), and folks flocked to the Sun Microsystems website each morning with their coffee to see "what did Jonathan put up there today?" I was one of them.
Mike, I have no idea why you're bringing up this topic of grammar and "high school punctuation," because I certainly didn't mention anything of the sort. I *never* mention grammar or punctuation errors in someone's writing, unless it's *SO* bad that I can't read it. (There are certain things that push my buttons in other people's writing, but I keep those to myself. I consider it part of the "everyone, including myself, has habits or traits that annoy other people" thing.)
As for your statement of, "I'm not sure the people in this thread are qualified to determine who is a 'professional' writer," I strongly disagree. I think if you have the ability to read, you have the ability to judge what you read. Did you like it? Did it "ring" to you? Is the person saying something unique -- even if you don't agree with it -- in a way that you readily understand? (That latter part is key -- clarity is a trait that can either be born with [as in your Bill Simmons example below], or else taught/studied/practiced -- as in many "grown" writers. I consider myself in that latter camp.)
You've done some professional writing yourself, haven't you, Mike? And as you mention, having been an editor in charge of hiring freelancers, you yourself were in a position to judge and select writing you consider to be "professional," correct? So you *are* in a position to judge "professional" writing. And so am I. And so is The Hamster, and JAM, and Lou, and anyone else that takes the time to actually read, digest, and comment on what they just read. Because it is the writer's job to get his/her point across in an easily-understandable way to his/her target audience. It is not the audience's job to decipher bad writing, especially if it's outward-facing writing with a purpose in mind -- to sell product.
Mike, I'm a headlined author on several big works in the I.T. industry. After I completed these works, I was offered employment with the publishing company. I turned these opportunities down for various reasons (e.g. compensation was less than what I was making at the time; the hours/dedication/commitment was more than I could bear at the time; I'd have to write about things that didn't interest me [or that I was trying to get away from]; etc.). I don't write full time, nor do I want to. (I have much more to offer this world than be welded to a keyboard full-time.) I explain all this, because your notion of, "If you haven't got past the stage of freelancing you're not as good as you think or competitive with the real talent in the writing business" is INCORRECT. People make career choices; I made mine, and I stand by them.
This is an example of someone with natural raw writing talent, and -- this is key -- was looking to be found. There are many out there that are talented but don't want to be found. They may enjoy writing for the purposes of "distraction." Just because someone writes well, doesn't mean they want to do it full time. If they do, they will put themselves in the position to be "found."
Here you go again with the grammar and punctuation thing. Why? I never mentioned it. Nor did I imply that professional writing needs to arrive from the source in a polished form. They have copy editors for that.
If you're trying to combine your reply with something directed at someone else, do us both a favor, and target that where it needs to go -- at the person you mean to say this to. Not at me. I've personally spent enough years in this industry to have learned to pay more attention to *what* a person has to say, than the "packaging" the person uses to say it.
As for your notion of, "Real talent is something very far apart from the physical act of putting one word after another," I disagree again. Putting one word after another in an easily read and understood manner -- to get across an idea in a unique way -- is the very definition of writing talent. It's one thing to have ideas; it's quite another to be able to express them in a lucid and easily-understood way.
I thank you for the opportunity to engage your thoughts.
Regards,
-Sean
Last edited:
mlalum
Banned
thanks for your input.
mlalum
Banned
Karl what in the heck do you edit in Baker City Oregon. This comes from someone who had their first job at the Seaside Signal.
JAM...Could be...I've talked with four different BD "correspondents", some of whom still write for the mag. They all told me the same thing...sad, but true. Even at $250, they certainly aren't doing it for the $$$!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
edit
I edit for the Forest Service. The bulk of my work is environmental impact statements and land and resource management plans. I've done some public affairs work here and for the Air Force Reserve (DINFOS grad) and have worked on press releases, newsletters, and various other documents.
I have degrees from the U of Montana in journalism (with photo emphasis) and resource conservation, for what that is worth.
Photography is a sideline for me. My specialty is rodeos. It's a nice escape from the daily grind so long as I escape the rough stock.
Cheers,
Karl
I edit for the Forest Service. The bulk of my work is environmental impact statements and land and resource management plans. I've done some public affairs work here and for the Air Force Reserve (DINFOS grad) and have worked on press releases, newsletters, and various other documents.
I have degrees from the U of Montana in journalism (with photo emphasis) and resource conservation, for what that is worth.
Photography is a sideline for me. My specialty is rodeos. It's a nice escape from the daily grind so long as I escape the rough stock.
Cheers,
Karl
mlalum
Banned
hope you don't run into any rodeo cowboy clowns like the one we have on this forum.
edit or revise?
Don't be so hard on yourself. I would offer that you revise, not edit, your work.
Another point is that many writers have great difficulty editing their own work. Being able to self edit is a talent in its own right.
Off topic: I wonder how many AzBers read what they type before submitting it?
Karl
Don't be so hard on yourself. I would offer that you revise, not edit, your work.
Another point is that many writers have great difficulty editing their own work. Being able to self edit is a talent in its own right.
Off topic: I wonder how many AzBers read what they type before submitting it?
Karl
I read and re-read everything I type on here. More often than not, I decide against posting altogether and hit the back button.
I am currently having that battle with this post but I'm going to let it stand because to hit the back button now would make my irony meter explode.
~rc
That is true. Most of the *regular* pool scribes do it because they have a great deal of passion for pool and take pride in their writing about it. It's a labor of love for some, I'm sure.
When I am speaking about $250 per article, Scott, remember that BD ain't the only fish in pool's fourth estate. :wink:
You're right. Editing one's own work isn't productive.
I have a friend who's a scopist for a court, and she was also an English major in college. She knows *nothing* about pool. I called on her many times to be my copy-editor, so to speak. I did not need her critique on my punctuation or catching typos. I'm comfortable in that department, but where she really helped was content and flow. If she did not understand my description of a pool happening, then we both worked on clarity. Sometimes I would use a word several times within a paragraph or the same page, and she was very instrumental in that area for me.
I spoke to an instructional pool author who shared with me that he wrote his last book in six months. Wow! Writing does come easy for some, I guess, but not me. A publisher was kind enough to suggest to me that I try to condense my 500 pages to 300, which may help relieve my nagging need to edit, edit, and edit, so that's next on my writing platter.
Thanks again for the great advice, Karl!
I can't tell you what it's really like.
For thirty bucks, they may have to accept the blog written in the hip-hop short hand.
It may be that the criteria to be a blogger is quite different than a professional writer for a magazine such as PC or Byte.
I've read some articles written by so-called "professional writers" on other forums that are riddled with spelling and punctuation errors. I realize mags have copy-editors and the like, but usually, if you're going to label yourself as a "writer," you should know the difference between its/it's, they're/their/there, affect/effect, principal/principle, loose/lose, et cetera. :wink:
Bloggers aren't as picky when it comes to spelling/punctuation issues, I think.
And then there's that strange punctuation and spellings they have in Canada that really seems odd to my American eyeballs.
For thirty bucks, they may have to accept the blog written in the hip-hop short hand.
There is some merit in "You get what you pay for." :yes: