Blaze Tour ban

lodini

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I heard something weird about the Blaze Tour... that they have recently banned Tony Robles from their events! I do not know the whole story but would be amazed that Tony could ever do anything to warrant this kind of treatment. He's one of the nicest and most sincere guys I have ever met!

Has anyone ever heard of a regional tour banning a professional player before??? If so, what reasons could they possibly have? Aren't these pros a big part of what keeps these tours alive?
 
From what I hear is that Tony has been banned because he is going to start his own tour and will be competing with Jose Burgos(sp) of the Blaze Tour in some geographic areas
 
To bad the 2 tours can't find a way to benefit each other. Maybe have events on different weekends or something.
 
hilla_hilla said:
To bad the 2 tours can't find a way to benefit each other. Maybe have events on different weekends or something.


petty minds lack the ability to think in terms of mutual benefits.They feel powerful when they ban some one from the tournaments and pool halls for petty reasons like teen age boy thinking that he dumped his girl friend first.
The sub culture of pool is loaded with lot of petty minds.:cool:
 
Hmmmmmm, interesting story. Toney Robles starts a tour, Tommy Kennedy, Shannon Daulton, Ron Wiseman is promoting events, Shawn Putnam is directing events ...............

I have no clue about the Blaze Tour and the Toney Robles story but to me it sounds like the same sad story all over again.

Boy oh boy do I wish I could tell the whole story on how bad this is for the sport.

I'm just wondering what players will be left to compete in tournaments beside their own?


lodini said:
Has anyone ever heard of a regional tour banning a professional player before??? If so, what reasons could they possibly have? Aren't these pros a big part of what keeps these tours alive?

Yes
Many
Nope

The pro's not having a viable tour to make a living on have gone into the countryside and pillaged the regional tours to the point of scaring off the main group of weekend fun players from participating in weekend events. This in turn led to the decreased participation in regional events and gives the medium to highly skilled upcoming players less of a chance to make money in the regional system. This now becomes disruptive to the point that even if there was a pro tour there are not enough new players to feed it (or spectators to fund it). Its a very viscious cycle and extremely bad for the organization of our sport.

This in turn has spureed off many additional problems for the Pro Player, Room Owners and Regional Tour Promoters.

For the Pro's the problem has become that their visibility on the regional tour has decreased their value for an effective pro tour because the spectators now see them for free every weekend.

The room owners get hurt because there are too many tournament each weekend and it divides up the players so nobody gets a realy good turnout anymore.

The Promoters fall into the same category as the room owners with the low participation and that translates to less sponsorship for the individual regional tour. This in turn does not allow the regional tours to grow.
 
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lodini said:
Has anyone ever heard of a regional tour banning a professional player before??? If so, what reasons could they possibly have? Aren't these pros a big part of what keeps these tours alive?

I won't name names but it has happened on more than a few occasions. Still, it's generally for unruly or unsportmanslike behavior, not because that player dares to compete with that tour.

PS Thanks to Mike Janis for his particpation in this thread. He may be the single most qualified person in America to analyze and comment on this situation.
 
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MikeJanis said:
Hmmmmmm, interesting story. Toney Robles starts a tour, Tommy Kennedy, Shannon Daulton, Ron Wiseman is promoting events, Shawn Putnam is directing events ...............

I have no clue about the Blaze Tour and the Toney Robles story but to me it sounds like the same sad story all over again.

Boy oh boy do I wish I could tell the whole story on how bad this is for the sport.

I'm just wondering what players will be left to compete in tournaments beside their own?




Yes
Many
Nope

The pro's not having a viable tour to make a living on have gone into the countryside and pillaged the regional tours to the point of scaring off the main group of weekend fun players from participating in weekend events. This in turn led to the decreased participation in regional events and gives the medium to highly skilled upcoming players less of a chance to make money in the regional system. This now becomes disruptive to the point that even if there was a pro tour there are not enough new players to feed it (or spectators to fund it). Its a very viscious cycle and extremely bad for the organization of our sport.

This in turn has spureed off many additional problems for the Pro Player, Room Owners and Regional Tour Promoters.

For the Pro's the problem has become that their visibility on the regional tour has decreased their value for an effective pro tour because the spectators now see them for free every weekend.

The room owners get hurt because there are too many tournament each weekend and it divides up the players so nobody gets a realy good turnout anymore.

The Promoters fall into the same category as the room owners with the low participation and that translates to less sponsorship for the individual regional tour. This in turn does not allow the regional tours to grow.

Thanks for your insight, Mike! I really appreciate it. (and thanks to everyone else who responded too!!)
 
hilla_hilla said:
To bad the 2 tours can't find a way to benefit each other. Maybe have events on different weekends or something.

In starting this tour, Tony's main goal was to host events that would benefit the players and the sport of pool.

Tony has coordinated with Mike Zuglan of the Joss Tour that their two tours will not conflict with one another as this is not the purpose of the tours and will only thin out the tournament's showing. Tony had the same conversation with Jose of the Blaze Tour.

I'm disgusted with the circumstances behind the Blaze Tour banning Tony. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body and for anyone to question his character or motives is absurd. He's been a continuous advocate for the players and the sport of pool. The Blaze Tour should be ashamed of itself.
 
With all these people wanting to start a tour makes me think that each one could have a large event every month or so and START A PRO TOUR...... sigh.

Eric.
 
I rack balls said:
With all these people wanting to start a tour makes me think that each one could have a large event every month or so and START A PRO TOUR...... sigh.

Eric.

And within your statement is the BIG problem. If the regional tours only had 1 BIG tournament a month they would not be able to sustain as a business. Additionally, it would divide up the sponsorship pool even greater.

To give a more detailed insight.
The SPONSORSHIP POOL = a total amount of money and or products that is given by the billiard industry in a whole to support events and players in our sport. The more this fund is divided up between different entities the less effective it is because it lessons the promoters ability to bring in revenues to support the advertising that the sponsorship requires to be sustaining as an advertising venture.


GG11 said:
Tony has coordinated with Mike Zuglan of the Joss Tour that their two tours will not conflict with one another as this is not the purpose of the tours and will only thin out the tournament's showing. Tony had the same conversation with Jose of the Blaze Tour.



While Tony's communications are commendable it is simply a matter of fact that the three tours will overlap. As a result of this several things will happen. 1. On conflicting dates the players will be forced to choose which event to go to. More times than not the players will choose to go to the nearest event to their home regardless of the added monies, promoter fees or anything else. 2. When this happens the ROOM OWNERS will be upset (this takes a little time) because no matter how hard they try the turnouts will get smaller and smaller at most events. This is a result of the players no longer wanting to travel greater distances to get to larger events because they can play in smaller ones closer to their house. Inturn the room owners and promoters will figure out that they no longer need to add larger amounts of money to events and the players will suffer.

Again, the scenario of several regional tours operating in on area is extremely devastating to our sport. Other things that will soon happen will be that the room owners will shop the tours for the best deal, this is Great for the room owners in the beginning but bad in the long term. The effect of this will decrease the promoters ability to make money and/or will decrease prize funds. The combined effects of this will be that the PLAYERS will end up loosing the most because promoters/room owners will increase fees to the players and prize funds will start to decrease as a result of less and less players attending events.


I rack balls said:
With all these people wanting to start a tour makes me think that each one could have a large event every month or so and START A PRO TOUR...... sigh.

Eric.


What a novel idea. I think we should call it the NUTS (New Unified Tour System). Something like this was tried and tested and now more than ever is needed. It was designed to protect the Regional tours/promoters/players/room owners and sponsors alike from something as potentialy devastating as what is happening now with every local-joe trying to run a tournament to line their pockets instead of looking out for the better interest of growing the sport in a whole.

To be blatently honest and a little self serving. I predicted this several years ago and tried to warn my fellow regional tour promoters and sponsors of what was to come. Unfortunately many of the others disregarded this effort and it fell away. Additionally, to protect the Viking Tour against the above described effects I immediately started taking precautionary measures by diversify the Viking tour into 1 main tour and 3 sub tours. As a result of doing this the Viking Tour has been able to sustain larger turn-outs for events and provide room owners with more sponsorship and sponsors with more advertising than any other regional tour going today. The downside of this is that one of the sub tours (the Viking Cue Amateur Tour) has grown to almost the size of the main tour (The Viking Cue Open Tour) and is giving it a god run of competition on its own. The bad news for the players is that fact that it is more affordable to the room owners to run our amateur tour than the open tour so what I expect to happen is that the Open tour added monies will decrease and the amateur tours added monies will increase which is real bad news for the better players as this may effect every regional tour in the US when we make the jump from Open events to Amateurs only.
 
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The EGO among the men pro's is ASTOUNDING I'm waiting for the first to have a "chalk boy" some kid running up and chalking their cues for them each shot.

the Mens tour is stepping on their own toes they don't know what they are doing and don't care. they are all ME ME ME and no US. The women figured out US and are doing pretty well.

there are ways to make money in pro pool... there are ways of getting non pool sponsors (can you say Budweiser) they just don't want to chase it.. they want it to come to them. its all ego and its killing ALL of them.

I am what they call around here a "good stick" I like to play and I hold my own. never once in my life did I see that ability resulting in people beating down my door begging to fill my pockets with money.

Money just doesn't show up you gotta work for it. you worked to get the stroke... now work to make it pay off ...

If these players could get out of their own way, vary the game, vary the format, create a multi-discipline format where the winner could legitimately call himself the " World Pool Champion"

you might get the mass audience that would be needed to attract the big name sponsors.

I'll never be a Pro... mostly because there is no money in it LOL
 
softshot said:
The EGO among the men pro's is ASTOUNDING I'm waiting for the first to have a "chalk boy" some kid running up and chalking their cues for them each shot.

the Mens tour is stepping on their own toes they don't know what they are doing and don't care. they are all ME ME ME and no US. The women figured out US and are doing pretty well.

there are ways to make money in pro pool... there are ways of getting non pool sponsors (can you say Budweiser) they just don't want to chase it.. they want it to come to them. its all ego and its killing ALL of them.

This line of thinking is so totally off the mark. It is difficult for me to explain why, but I disagree with this opinion.

If you think there are ways to make money in pro pool in these United States of America, it is not as easy as one might think.

In fact, today two of America's major top players lost sponsorship. Even the pool industry members are pulling back because of these difficult economic times we live in. For these two major top players, it is a rude awakening. They will have to attend tournaments on their own dime, like the majority of American pros do, unlike pro players from other countries.

It doesn't have anything to do with ego. It has to do with pool not considered a sport in the States. Hot dog eating contests and lawn mower races rank higher than pool does as an American sport.

The Hilton Hotel chain several years ago decided to start a pool tour. After the second event in Pittsburgh, they changed their mind. Thus, the Hilton Tour ended almost as quickly as it began. Low turnout of players and spectators was one reason. At the time of the Pittsburgh event, there were three major tournaments going on simultaneously which may be one reason why the Hilton event in Pittsburgh suffered.

Poker enjoys corporate sponsorship, but pool does not. In fact, at some pool events, one of the sponsors could be a poker entity.

The regional tours offer the best bang for the buck for pros today in the United States. There is not a great "PROFESSIONAL" tour for the men pros, restricted to PROFESSIONALS ONLY, other than the UPA tour that piggy-backs off of indepdent promoter events. The reason being is that the men's governing body of professional pool does not enjoy a strong backing by corporate sponsors. It is very sad.

In sum, it doesn't have anything to do with player egos. It has to do with the fact that pool sucks in America for professional caliber of play. Leagues, however, is another story. That's where it's at.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM
 
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JAM said:
This line of thinking is so totally off the mark. It is difficult for me to explain why, but I disagree with this opinion.

If you think there are ways to make money in pro pool in these United States of America, it is not as easy as one might think.

In fact, today two of America's major top players lost sponsorship. Even the pool industry members are pulling back because of these difficult economic times we live in. For these two major top players, it is a rude awakening. They will have to attend tournaments on their own dime, like the majority of American pros do, unlike pro players from other countries.

It doesn't have anything to do with ego. It has to do with pool not considered a sport in the States. Hot dog eating contests and lawn mower races rank higher than pool does as an American sport.

The Hilton Hotel chain several years ago decided to start a pool tour. After the second event in Pittsburgh, they changed their mind. Thus, the Hilton Tour ended almost as quickly as it began. Low turnout of players and spectators was one reason. At the time of the Pittsburgh event, there were three major tournaments going on simultaneously which may be one reason why the Hilton event in Pittsburgh suffered.

Poker enjoys corporate sponsorship, but pool does not. In fact, at some pool events, one of the sponsors could be a poker entity.

The regional tours offer the best bang for the buck for pros today in the United States. There is not a great tour for the men pros, other than a tour that piggy-backs off of indepdent promoter events. The reason being is that the men's governing body of professional pool does not enjoy a strong backing by corporate sponsors. It is very sad.

In sum, it doesn't have anything to do with player egos. It has to do with the fact that pool sucks in America for professional caliber of play. Leagues, however, is another story. That's where it's at.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM


If thats the truth then why don't the women have the same problem???

they are making money all the players are reasonably happy. whats the difference?

I think part of the problem lies in the slop of nine ball. American players even the bad ones can tell a slop shot when they see one ... not that the pro's can't play or that they slop often... but it does happen. and for the American audience one is enough. You lose all credibility at that point.

the vast majority of the world prefers soccer . the Americans prefer the more strategic NFL. should the NFL switch its game to soccer to make the rest of the world happy??? NO!! they should stay with what we want.

The most recognizable names in pool in the U.S. are still Mosconi and Mizerak both deceased , but more noteworthy both from a time when the champ called his shots. Once Tom Cruise got the U.S. excited with nine ball we hit a major growth in the pool industry every tourney wanted that crowd and every player wanted to be Tom Cruise.

The truth is that the movie forced the Pro Players hand. some T.V. exec saw nineball as a game that could fit between the commercial breaks. so nineball it was and has been ever since. even though that same T.V exec. left you in the dust 20 years ago. its not the best game for showcasing the ability of the players its only merit is that it has fast racks that showcase's a hard shot and the balls hit lots of rails.


this is not a lost cause there are ways to get it done. it will just take a little effort from those with the most to gain... " Pro Players"
 
Mosconi and Miserak?
I think Earl Strickland is the most recognized name at this point...

I mean i don't like Earl, but IMO he is the most recognizable name in US pool...

Corey D. is up there as well....
 
BPG24 said:
Mosconi and Miserak?
I think Earl Strickland is the most recognized name at this point...

I mean i don't like Earl, but IMO he is the most recognizable name in US pool...

Corey D. is up there as well....

tell you what... we meet in time square on new years eve and each ask 100 random people who Earl Strickland is and who Willie Mosconi is. my money is on Mosconi coming out ahead and thats all that needs to be said about American pool after the cancer of 9 ball.
 
softshot said:
If thats the truth then why don't the women have the same problem???

they are making money all the players are reasonably happy. whats the difference?

I think part of the problem lies in the slop of nine ball. American players even the bad ones can tell a slop shot when they see one ... not that the pro's can't play or that they slop often... but it does happen. and for the American audience one is enough. You lose all credibility at that point.

the vast majority of the world prefers soccer . the Americans prefer the more strategic NFL. should the NFL switch its game to soccer to make the rest of the world happy??? NO!! they should stay with what we want.

The most recognizable names in pool in the U.S. are still Mosconi and Mizerak both deceased , but more noteworthy both from a time when the champ called his shots. Once Tom Cruise got the U.S. excited with nine ball we hit a major growth in the pool industry every tourney wanted that crowd and every player wanted to be Tom Cruise.

The truth is that the movie forced the Pro Players hand. some T.V. exec saw nineball as a game that could fit between the commercial breaks. so nineball it was and has been ever since. even though that same T.V exec. left you in the dust 20 years ago. its not the best game for showcasing the ability of the players its only merit is that it has fast racks that showcase's a hard shot and the balls hit lots of rails.


this is not a lost cause there are ways to get it done. it will just take a little effort from those with the most to gain... " Pro Players"

You have made some very valid points, and I agree with much of what you have written.

However, to place blame on male professional players is where we disagree.

I do not believe that the so-called "pro players," men in particular, are the reason why pool sucks in the States. There is no market for pool here, like there is overseas. As you state, NFL, MLB, NBA, PGA, tennis are sports here in America. Pool is considered a recreational game, much like bowling, where pool players enjoy playing pool at a once-a-week league night or in the basement of their homes.

There is only one game in football with one set of rules. Pocket billiards, however, comes in many different forms, 3-ball, 6-ball, 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, one-pocket, banks, et cetera.

The recent WPC 9-ball tournament, though I did enjoy it and found it very exciting, is a good example of why 9-ball as a game of skill for pocket billiards is met with scrutiny. The Taiwanese said it right when they labeled the soft break as the "bird break."

Another problem with 9-ball is the rack riggers who deliberately, with malice aforethought, rig the racks, so that when they break, they are guaranteed to make a ball. There are ways to fix the rack with cracks in certain places, sad to say but true. It is not possible to have neutral rackers, though, for all professional matches. So 9-ball continues to be the game of skill for pocket billiards players, but it does have its problems.

Pool is boring to watch on TV. Even my boyfriend who is considered a pro caliber player does not enjoy watching pool on TV. Therein lies the problem. Pool is just not exciting in its present form.

Though movies like "The Hustler" and "The Color of Money" did bring a boom to the pool industry, I am not sure if in today's market the same would happen.

In most major metropolitan areas, pool rooms, REAL pool rooms, are fading away and have been replaced with what I seem as sports lounges with big screen TVs and LOUD, LOUD, LOUD music. Pool is only an afterthought in these joints.

Pool is a rich man's high, and I do enjoy it still today, but I will never sacrifice my work responsibilities again for pool. When I attend events today, I will look at it as if it were a pool vacation because, in essence, that is all it is, a place to party and have fun.

JAM
 
softshot said:
tell you what... we meet in time square on new years eve and each ask 100 random people who Earl Strickland is and who Willie Mosconi is. my money is on Mosconi coming out ahead and thats all that needs to be said about American pool after the cancer of 9 ball.


Why would it matter what people in 1 area thought... Thats right it doesn't.

Alot of people don't know that much about Mosconi... Especially the under 30 crowd...
 
BPG24 said:
Why would it matter what people in 1 area thought... Thats right it doesn't.

Alot of people don't know that much about Mosconi... Especially the under 30 crowd...

I think Softshot is right about this fact. I did a poll on another forum, an industry forum to my profession consisting of mainly American women. I labeled it as "Have you ever heard of any of these people?"

Earl Strickland (4.2%)
Efren Reyes (2.1%)
Steve Mizerak (4.2%)
Alex Higgins (4.2%)
Cliff Thorburn (2.1%)
Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats" (35.4%)
Willie Mosconi (12.5%)
None (35.4%)

Notice that "None" category tied with "Minnesota Fats" category.

JAM
 
JAM said:
I think Softshot is right about this fact. I did a poll on another forum, an industry forum to my profession consisting of mainly American women. I labeled it as "Have you ever heard of any of these people?"

Earl Strickland (4.2%)
Efren Reyes (2.1%)
Steve Mizerak (4.2%)
Alex Higgins (4.2%)
Cliff Thorburn (2.1%)
Rudolph Wanderone, Jr., a/k/a "Minnesota Fats" (35.4%)
Willie Mosconi (12.5%)
None (35.4%)

Notice that "None" category tied with "Minnesota Fats" category.

JAM


Where people live is a huge factor in the outcome of such polls....

Also if pool players are not allowed to vote would be a huge factor...

Sex could also be a factor, as well as age
 
BPG24 said:
Where people live is a huge factor in the outcome of such polls....

Also if pool players are not allowed to vote would be a huge factor...

Sex could also be a factor, as well as age

This is true, and I agree.

I think why this poll was a little revealing, though, is that it captured an audience from many backgrounds around the States. One voter was a gal who plays on a league, and so she knew who Earl was.

What Softspot was getting at is that if you were to walk down the street in ANYWHERE, USA, and ask 100 people who Earl Strickland was, I think you would be lucky to get one correct answer. :(

If you were to walk down the street in ANYWHERE, PHILIPPINES, and ask 100 people who Efren Reyes was, I think you would get almost a perfect score of 100 correct answers. Efren Reyes is to Philippines what Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods is to the States. :)

JAM
 
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