Bonus Ball Schedule: Right or Wrong

[JAM]

Wow, what a train wreck of a thread. I'm not sure I want to even post my thoughts having a business degree and spending a decent amount of time with marketing aspects (including creating business plans).

I'll give you a hint though...$ just MIGHT be a factor in some of this conversation.

I remember reading numerous posts written by you while you were on your honeymoon.

Go ahead and express your expertise. You might as well. Everybody else has. :thumbup:

What kind of business have you operated in the past, or should I say, what expertise do you bring to the forum table? :smile:

 

[Spimp13]

I remember reading numerous posts written by you while you were on your honeymoon.

Go ahead and express your expertise. You might as well. Everybody else has. :thumbup:

What kind of business have you operated in the past, or should I say, what expertise do you bring to the forum table? :smile:

I never did get to post some pictures of Jamaica like I wanted to, but maybe some day I will (including a couple of slightly humid pool tables out there eek)...

I'm by no means a "expert", but I do have a degree in business management. As for credentials, I have helped to create multiple business plans including (since I love the game of pool) a pool hall while attending Northwest Missouri State. I have multiple classes/hours etc under my belt in marketing, negotiations, management etc. In general I feel I have a pretty good understanding on concepts about businesses on why they fail or succeed.

That being said while it is healthy to throw out opinions on the subject, way too much emotion get's involved and that clouds potential facts. There are always 3+ sides to every story and I would be willing to bet high there are some facts that have not been mentioned by key parties involved here. That still may not sway peoples' opinions, but unless all facts are known it may be harder to understand the reasoning behind things. I have only skimmed the thread so it sounds like I may have some back reading to do.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, I just might tread lightly on this one!

 

[JAM]

I never did get to post some pictures of Jamaica like I wanted to, but maybe some day I will (including a couple of slightly humid pool tables out there eek)...

I'm by no means a "expert", but I do have a degree in business management. As for credentials, I have helped to create multiple business plans including (since I love the game of pool) a pool hall while attending Northwest Missouri State. I have multiple classes/hours etc under my belt in marketing, negotiations, management etc. In general I feel I have a pretty good understanding on concepts about businesses on why they fail or succeed.

That being said while it is healthy to throw out opinions on the subject, way too much emotion get's involved and that clouds potential facts. There are always 3+ sides to every story and I would be willing to be high there are some facts that have not been mentioned by key parties involved here. That still may not sway peoples opinions, but unless all facts are known it may be harder to understand the reasoning behind things. I have only skimmed the thread so it sounds like I may have some back reading to do.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, I just might tread lightly on this one!

That's quite remarkable, the business plan for the pool room, and I'd love to see the photos from the honeymoon. As you know, I love my pictures. Hope married life is agreeing with you. :smiling-heart:

Your reply is a well-reasoned one. It is obvious you have expertise in this area by the way you have worded your post. The Bonus Ball enterprise could have used someone like you at its genesis, I'd imagine, but, like you stated, none of us know all sides of what has transpired to date. I agree there are probably more things behind the scenes that we on this forum are not aware of.

Thanks for the great post. Good contribution to the thread. :smile:

 

[mikeyfrost]

I don';t know Mikey - I have been successful in my tour and feel I am the biggest/best but also made sure that I didn't step on anyone that I felt was 'lesser' than what I was doing. In fact, i have offered them assistance physically, technologically, and with promotion of their event.

You have a tour though my man, you hold events. It behooves you to schedule better cause that will keep them coming. It's not apples to apples, your's would be like scheduling the Derby over the US Open, which I am in favor of lol. The league thing though especially with alternates gives more than fair flexibility in my opinion.

Also don't overlook the fact you also know what you are doing and handle business in the best of ways...others aren't necessarily that smart lol. In a perfect world none of this would have happened in the first place, but you gotta adapt and adapting calls for sacrifice. If it's you or the other guy, people will choose themselves. It's self preservation.

Believe me, mikeyfrost, what you think of me makes no difference whatsoever. I just consider the source. :grin-square:

You showed your true colors when you embellished my PM to you in defense of your friend. Though I admire loyalty in this regard, I don't care for those who disseminate untruths in an effort to further their own gain. It displays a lack of integrity.

Just so you know, though, I've been saying whatever I want since before you were born. It's a right I have under the Constitution of these United States. I also have the right to the pursuit of happiness, which means nothing you can do or say will interfere with this.

As far as your "Texas boys," I have friends in Texas, so you're not the lone soldier here. The only difference is that I don't need my friends to surround me when I take a stance.

Now, you have yourself a very nice day, okay?

I did that just to multi-quote you with Watchez for a forum first lol. I made history with your pure rant.

Oh and I'm loving the fact you want people to qualify themselves to you like they need more than a user name to talk to you. All you need is to complete registration to have a voice on this forum.

 

[JAM]

I did that just to multi-quote you with Watchez for a forum first lol. I made history with your pure rant.

Oh and I'm loving the fact you want people to qualify themselves to you like they need more than a user name to talk to you. All you need is to complete registration to have a voice on this forum.

I feel like there's a gnat in my ear.

 

[Ghosst]

Poor guy. I feel sorry for Larry now. I'm thinking he's been duped by people in his ear. Now I believe he has no idea what he's stepped in.

Lest you forget JAM, he's not American, and therefore evil. If you keep sympathizing with the enemy we will label you a pinko and deport you to Mother Russia.

 

[DecentShot]

To compare the retail industry, especially a conglomerate like Walmart, to the fractured pool industry is not a fair analogy.

The similarity lies in doing what is best for the company. Not the industry. I just see the wpbl taking the necessary and unpopular steps toward doing exactly what they should. Trying to be number 1. The more complaining I heard the more I would know my work was paying off. Pool is competition. So is the pool industry. I mean it sounds like they have been reasonable within the large scope of what they are trying to do.
If bonus ball is going to climb a ladder, they will have to step on and over others to get to the top. Something, I for one am looking forward to.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

What's in a poll?

I've learned that if I want to conduct a poll, in order to get the most accurate, unbiased results, I:

1) think through the questions, options and wording very carefully

2) in my OP I expound upon the poll's intent and try very hard not to express a view or bias the results; I post that later


When I see someone else's poll I first read the OP, then guess what the results will be, THEN vote or open the poll.

On this poll I guessed 75% wrong. I was right, lol. The OP had bias in it, and hence the results are surely skewed. That is the OP's right.

Just saying.

 

[JAM]

The similarity lies in doing what is best for the company. Not the industry. I just see the wpbl taking the necessary and unpopular steps toward doing exactly what they should. Trying to be number 1. The more complaining I heard the more I would know my work was paying off. Pool is competition. So is the pool industry. I mean it sounds like they have been reasonable within the large scope of what they are trying to do.
If bonus ball is going to climb a ladder, they will have to step on and over others to get to the top. Something, I for one am looking forward to.

Okay. I'm going to spell it out for you, just so you understand it better, okay?

Greg Sullivan is a valued American pool promoter. Everybody knows who he is. He's the Derby City Classic promoter and the Diamond table man.

For years, maybe decades, he has taken money out of his pocket and given it to pool players, knowing how expensive it is to attend pool happenings. For our European counterparts, he helps them with expenses by giving them free entry fees and hotel rooms. He does the same for many, many American players, as well as a whole host of international pros. He does this so that his Derby City Classic and Southern Classic will be a pool mecca for everyone -- young, old, amateur, professional, railbird, stakehorse, action players, legends of the game, and young aspiring newbies. That's what Greg Sullivan is all about.

Some of the Bonus Ball players are the recipients of Greg's kindness. I would imagine it hurts deeply to have those very players not support him by coming to the Southern Classic. Bonus Ball, because of changing their schedule willy-nilly, has created a division.

Now, maybe those Bonus Ball players don't care about Greg Sullivan. They're in it to win it at the Bonus Ball venue, but me personally, I could never do that to somebody like Greg Sullivan. Johnny Archer in particular has been the recipient of numerous generosities of many American promoters, to include Greg Sullivan. A paid-for limousine request comes to mind at one event I attended.

This isn't big business here. We are talking about pool, a love most of us on this forum share. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. I just don't think Greg Sullivan deserves this from the players. I am angry that Bonus Ball has created this problem. It's unforgiveable as far as I'm concerned.

Now, you can say they're making a business decision to benefit them all you want. At the end of the day, money to me doesn't mean much if I have to earn it at the expense of shooting a man down that has helped me throughout the years. These Bonus Ball players who Greg Sullivan has helped will be broke sooner than later when Larry finds out how he's been duped.

I'm starting to feel just as sorry for Larry as I am Greg. I'm not sure who to blame now. Those who provided advice to Larry and created this schedule should be tar-and-feathered. Now I understand more fully how the construction fiasco happened. Bad planning, bad advice, and bad administration. I hope the Bonus Ball investors take note of what's happening right now. Bonus Ball is a folly.

 

[JAM]

I've learned that if I want to conduct a poll, in order to get the most accurate, unbiased results, I:

1) think through the questions, options and wording very carefully

2) in my OP I expound upon the poll's intent and try very hard not to express a view or bias the results; I post that later


When I see someone else's poll I first read the OP, then guess what the results will be, THEN vote or open the poll.

On this poll I guessed 75% wrong. I was right, lol. The OP had bias in it, and hence the results are surely skewed. That is the OP's right.

Just saying.

Yeah, they all voted to please me. That's the ticket. Sheesh!

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Yeah, they all voted to please me. That's the ticket. Sheesh!

Yup, that's how Gallup does it too. Thanks for catching my point. I was simply making an observation and trying to share my experience with others who may create their own polls. You, I and many others have seen some completely butchered polls. Yours was not butchered, but it had bias in it, as is your right.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Once again. The field at the southern classic will be strong. Both attendance and stream viewings will be higher than bonus ball.

So how is this hurting Greg?

 

[mikeyfrost]

Okay. I'm going to spell it out for you, just so you understand it better, okay?

Greg Sullivan is a valued American pool promoter. Everybody knows who he is. He's the Derby City Classic promoter and the Diamond table man.

For years, maybe decades, he has taken money out of his pocket and given it to pool players, knowing how expensive it is to attend pool happenings. For our European counterparts, he helps them with expenses by giving them free entry fees and hotel rooms. He does the same for many, many American players, as well as a whole host of international pros. He does this so that his Derby City Classic and Southern Classic will be a pool mecca for everyone -- young, old, amateur, professional, railbird, stakehorse, action players, legends of the game, and young aspiring newbies. That's what Greg Sullivan is all about.

Some of the Bonus Ball players are the recipients of Greg's kindness. I would imagine it hurts deeply to have those very players not support him by coming to the Southern Classic. Bonus Ball, because of changing their schedule willy-nilly, has created a division.

Now, maybe those Bonus Ball players don't care about Greg Sullivan. They're in it to win it at the Bonus Ball venue, but me personally, I could never do that to somebody like Greg Sullivan. Johnny Archer in particular has been the recipient of numerous generosities of many American promoters, to include Greg Sullivan. A paid-for limousine comes to mind at one event I attended.

This isn't big business here. We are talking about pool, a love most of us on this forum share. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. I just don't think Greg Sullivan deserves this from the players. I am angry that Bonus Ball has created this problem. It's unforgiveable as far as I'm concerned.

Now, you can say they're making a business decision to benefit them all you want. At the end of the day, money to me doesn't mean much if I have to earn it at the expense of shooting a man down that has helped me throughout the years. These Bonus Ball players who Greg Sullivan has helped will be broke sooner than later when Larry finds out how he's been duped.

I'm starting to feel just as sorry for Larry as I am Greg. I'm not sure who to blame now. Those who provided advice to Larry and created this schedule should be tar-and-feathered. Now I understand more fully how the construction fiasco happened. Bad planning, bad advice, and bad administration. I hope the Bonus Ball investors take note of what's happening right now. Bonus Ball is a folly.

Damn you put a lot of words in others mouth don't you. Guess Greg wasn't really being generous or helping out too much if he expects something in return vs being happy for their success. It's not like the players are staying on their couch doing nothing, they are working. I would assume the players he helped probably needed it, therefore he should take satisfaction that now some of them don't need yet another handout from him. The only true division being created is from people like you whether you realize it or not.

There is no gun to the players heads at all. They have to make that decision on what to do for themselves and that varies from situation to situation. How much would it cost to go play those events in Tunica? Now look at the opportunity cost of it if they do play there they miss out on $1k minimum right. Cliff asked for about $3500 to play all the events and travel etc which means they'd need to win at least $4500 while down there to end up in the same place as not going in the first place.

You blame bonus ball but truth be told, very few guys leave those events with the majority of the money. You ask them to gamble when they don't need to or maybe don't even want to. There's an alternative now...what's the big problem?

You fight for your point blindly with no look at it from the players perspective or bonus ball's perspective. It's a big outlay for the players and the league will suffer financial losses but you don't give a damn about that cause of poor Greg. Greg has never been woe is me and never will be and I highly doubt he needs you putting that out there on his behalf....you got Greg looking BAD out here right now. Soooo shaky baby!!!!

 

[jimmyg]

Unless there was a "blood oath" there is no "right" or "wrong".

What I do believe there is, is an "ethical", an "intentional", and an "effective", and attached to the "effective" remains a question: Whether BB has/will ultimately benefited or damaged their own product, corporate image, and their potential for success? PR and public perception can be a tremendous boost to a new enterprise, or a deadly nightmare, and, in this case, I believe the latter.

When you enter the room pounding your chest and stepping on toes, you had better be the biggest and baddest .... in the entire room because you're going to turn a lot of potential friends into angry enemies and you're going to be spending a lot of time, energy, and money fighting them instead of building your business. An amateur move, IMO.

J

 

[JAM]

Damn you put a lot of words in others mouth don't you. Guess Greg wasn't really being generous or helping out too much if he expects something in return vs being happy for their success. It's not like the players are staying on their couch doing nothing, they are working. I would assume the players he helped probably needed it, therefore he should take satisfaction that now some of them don't need yet another handout from him. The only true division being created is from people like you whether you realize it or not.

There is no gun to the players heads at all. They have to make that decision on what to do for themselves and that varies from situation to situation. How much would it cost to go play those events in Tunica? Now look at the opportunity cost of it if they do play there they miss out on $1k minimum right. Cliff asked for about $3500 to play all the events and travel etc which means they'd need to win at least $4500 while down there to end up in the same place as not going in the first place.

You blame bonus ball but truth be told, very few guys leave those events with the majority of the money. You ask them to gamble when they don't need to or maybe don't even want to. There's an alternative now...what's the big problem?

You fight for your point blindly with no look at it from the players perspective or bonus ball's perspective. It's a big outlay for the players and the league will suffer financial losses but you don't give a damn about that cause of poor Greg. Greg has never been woe is me and never will be and I highly doubt he needs you putting that out there on his behalf....you got Greg looking BAD out here right now. Soooo shaky baby!!!!

If you only realized how wrong you are. I'm not going to point it out for you, though. I am going to let your post shine brightly for all to see how brilliant you are.

 

[DecentShot]

Okay. I'm going to spell it out for you, just so you understand it better, okay?

Greg Sullivan is a valued American pool promoter. Everybody knows who he is. He's the Derby City Classic promoter and the Diamond table man.

For years, maybe decades, he has taken money out of his pocket and given it to pool players, knowing how expensive it is to attend pool happenings. For our European counterparts, he helps them with expenses by giving them free entry fees and hotel rooms. He does the same for many, many American players, as well as a whole host of international pros. He does this so that his Derby City Classic and Southern Classic will be a pool mecca for everyone -- young, old, amateur, professional, railbird, stakehorse, action players, legends of the game, and young aspiring newbies. That's what Greg Sullivan is all about.

Some of the Bonus Ball players are the recipients of Greg's kindness. I would imagine it hurts deeply to have those very players not support him by coming to the Southern Classic. Bonus Ball, because of changing their schedule willy-nilly, has created a division.

Now, maybe those Bonus Ball players don't care about Greg Sullivan. They're in it to win it at the Bonus Ball venue, but me personally, I could never do that to somebody like Greg Sullivan. Johnny Archer in particular has been the recipient of numerous generosities of many American promoters, to include Greg Sullivan. A paid-for limousine comes to mind at one event I attended.

This isn't big business here. We are talking about pool, a love most of us on this forum share. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. I just don't think Greg Sullivan deserves this from the players. I am angry that Bonus Ball has created this problem. It's unforgiveable as far as I'm concerned.

Now, you can say they're making a business decision to benefit them all you want. At the end of the day, money to me doesn't mean much if I have to earn it at the expense of shooting a man down that has helped me throughout the years. These Bonus Ball players who Greg Sullivan has helped will be broke sooner than later when Larry finds out how he's been duped.

I'm starting to feel just as sorry for Larry as I am Greg. I'm not sure who to blame now. Those who provided advice to Larry and created this schedule should be tar-and-feathered. Now I understand more fully how the construction fiasco happened. Bad planning, bad advice, and bad administration. I hope the Bonus Ball investors take note of what's happening right now. Bonus Ball is a folly.

Well written. I see where your comming from. Communication could have solved a lot of problems early on. One problem compounds or creates the next in buisness. I think my highest hope is that a remanant of a professional team pool league is left. I like the idea.

 

[JAM]

Unless there was a "blood oath" there is no "right" or "wrong".

What I do believe there is, is an "ethical", an "intentional", and an "effective", and attached to the "effective" remains a question: Whether BB has/will ultimately benefited or damaged their own product, corporate image, and their potential for success? PR and public perception can be a tremendous boost to a new enterprise, or a deadly nightmare, and, in this case, I believe the latter.

When you enter the room pounding your chest and stepping on toes, you had better be the biggest and baddest .... in the entire room because you're going to turn a lot of potential friends into angry enemies and you're going to be spending a lot of time, energy, and money fighting them instead of building your business. An amateur move, IMO.

J

Well said! Good read!

 

[mikeyfrost]

If you only realized how wrong you are. I'm not going to point it out for you, though. I am going to let your post shine brightly for all to see how brilliant you are.

That's probably the difference between me and you, I truly don't care if I am wrong in your eyes. Glad you think there is a right answer, I focus on dealing with reality, it's a nice place come visit sometime.

 

[JAM]

Well written. I see where your comming from. Communication could have solved a lot of problems early on. One problem compounds or creates the next in buisness. I think my highest hope is that a remanant of a professional team pool league is left. I like the idea.

It doesn't stand a prayer. That's what's so upsetting. Bonus Ball is already positioned for failure. I realized that after finding out who's manning the Bonus Ball ship. It reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, especially now that I know who's behind the curtain: inexperienced staff with little to no business acuity.

Plus, they're "on the come" for investors. What does that tell you?

The players are going to milk Bonus Ball for as long as it lasts. Meanwhile, good men, pioneers in the pool industry, will suffer because of this Bonus Ball machine, which in reality is nothing more than fluff. It's a facade.

Think about it. Purple and orange balls. I mean, I love pool, but you couldn't pay me to sit there and watch people playing that game. As a recreational player, I'd be more interested in 8-ball, but that's water under the bridge now.

I hope the players that are there don't lose all their income in Vegas. That's a tough town for pool players.

 

[JAM]

That's probably the difference between me and you, I truly don't care if I am wrong in your eyes. Glad you think there is a right answer, I focus on dealing with reality, it's a nice place come visit sometime.

Why don't you get it from the horse's mouth and talk to Greg Sullivan yourself, wise guy?!