Borana's page on womeninpool.com

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude - I've enjoyed and respected your posts for some time, but maybe you have overthought this particular situation.

The first thread had Jim's new style case in each photo - the point was to show the new case in a way that would get more attention than if the case were shown by itself. Since that was a popular thread and Jim had more Borana pics to show from this new website, he posted the link in this second thread. The pics are pretty tame, she's very attractive and so is the case. I enjoyed looking at them. I just don't see the harm.

You are entitled to your opinion and as an American, please feel free to speak your mind. I really would prefer it if you did. However, please understand that I will also exercise that same freedom as I see fit. For starters, I'd like to see this forum used as constructively as possible. I believe its purpose is to convey knowledge to others about the game we all love but sometimes, I feel a bit alone in this belief.

Another interest of mine is pool's image and this very forum is part of that image. The Borana pics have received nothing but responses filled with derogatory references to the female anatomy albeit, in good humor. I think, on the whole, women who view this will merely roll their eyes at the level of maturity we've displayed but some might have a slightly different reaction. It shows that the respect we have for women in pool goes no further than their cup-size or how they fill jeans. It shows that finishing in the money takes a backseat to beauty. It shows that the interest in women's pool isn't about pool.

Perhaps it's the older-brother in me but the women in my life mean more to me than this. The harm? Here goes the harm:


Shes gota pool junk in the trunk gota love that.. =).. ... Idoo hhahaha
Her derrier is ugly but the face is cute and don`t care how good she is in playing pool
I didn't see no cue cases Jim. LOL
Butt first? Nah, screw it...

 

[whitey2]

I would totally expect comments like that

I'm not surprised, nor blaming anyone for posts like that. I
would expect nothing else from such a large community.
Is that a bra or a shirt? I honestly don't know, but posting pics
like that will always elicit comments on anatomy.
I'm surprised some didn't ask if she was a double D player.

 

[Stones]

You are entitled to your opinion and as an American, please feel free to speak your mind. I really would prefer it if you did. However, please understand that I will also exercise that same freedom as I see fit. For starters, I'd like to see this forum used as constructively as possible. I believe its purpose is to convey knowledge to others about the game we all love but sometimes, I feel a bit alone in this belief.

Another interest of mine is pool's image and this very forum is part of that image. The Borana pics have received nothing but responses filled with derogatory references to the female anatomy albeit, in good humor. I think, on the whole, women who view this will merely roll their eyes at the level of maturity we've displayed but some might have a slightly different reaction. It shows that the respect we have for women in pool goes no further than their cup-size or how they fill jeans. It shows that finishing in the money takes a backseat to beauty. It shows that the interest in women's pool isn't about pool.

Perhaps it's the older-brother in me but the women in my life mean more to me than this. The harm? Here goes the harm:


Shes gota pool junk in the trunk gota love that.. =).. ... Idoo hhahaha
Her derrier is ugly but the face is cute and don`t care how good she is in playing pool
I didn't see no cue cases Jim. LOL
Butt first? Nah, screw it...

Jude,
I see the point you are making, but.........I haven't met a woman yet that doesn't like being admired for her beauty,skill or both.

In 45 years of playing this game, more than once I have overheard 2 or more women talking about a man's anatomy while he is bent over the table shooting.

Women are just more discreet about it than us dogs are. Some of the things I've heard would make a sailor blush.

I hold the women in my life on pedestals also and try to protect them at all costs as they are true treasures in this life and make it worth living.

What you're saying is that this forum is not the time or place for this but to condemn us for being sexual beings by nature is naive.

Harm? I don't see it. Just guys being guys trying to be funny. A lot of women think the same way. They just don't talk about in the open.

End of story......If I see a beautiful woman that can also handle a cue, she's got my attention! There's nothing more beautiful in life than a pretty woman that can hit a table length draw shot for shape!

And if that makes me a dog, well, WOOF, WOOF!

 

[QueenB]

The fact is that she is a woman who plays pool and that is what the website is about. now whats wrong with that? she is not posing in a bra!

 

[QueenB]

Hi Jude, this is Borana,
Seriously, I respect everything you are saying because it is what you believe, but I do not respect you calling me immature. You have really taking this to a personal level.
And to tell you the truth, I didn't choose to be in this forum and there are others close to my level of playing who will be in the website.
I play pool, I practice a lot, I am a woman, and thats all the website is about so CHILL.
This is great though, this is exactly what the forum was about, the make people watch and you did it. Thank You

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)... this is now the second thread about Borana and she's a D-player.

(snip)

She may be a D-player....going on double-D!!!!

Suddenly, I feel like playing pool.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Cornerman]

Look, I'm from New York City. I saw the rise of Jeanette Lee first-hand. You're comparing Borana to a woman who was ranked #1 in the world. For a time, Lee was the dominant force on the WPBA and remains one of the toughest draws in the field and was the #1 ranked American as recently as 2004. Help me out here. How is she "a long ways from the best pool player" again?

I suppose this is like a bunch of pool players in a pool hall, since there are fewer women that walk in, and everyone's going to notice a new one. Especially if she has a pulse.

The very serious players will continue to play.

The married ones will look, then look away, then look again.

The social bachelors are going to look, gawk, make comments, whistle, fantasize.

The bold and dumb will ask her if she "comes here often."

And the miserable curmudgeons will mutter how they've seen better legs in a bucket of Colonel Sanders' extra crispy (okay, the Colonel hated the bastardization of his recipe).

Me, I liked the dress. I'm not sure where that puts me on the list above.

Fred

 

[acedotcom]

I have to post my opinion on this. I saw this thread this morning and I've been thinking about what to say and how to say it ALL DAY. It is a touchy subject because I consider all the women you have on your site as friends and I know all of them have shown marked improvement in the past year. However, this is now the second thread about Borana and she's a D-player.

I want to stress that I think it would be wonderful if she does reach pro-level. She's beautiful and very charming and I think the sport would definitely benefit but giving her any attention now is extremely premature (and, some may argue, immature).

I don't want to try and define what this forum should be about but I think most will agree that provocative photographs of a D player does not make it "pool-related".

Ditto! I wanted to say something and was happy to find that you already have.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Hi Jude, this is Borana,
Seriously, I respect everything you are saying because it is what you believe, but I do not respect you calling me immature. You have really taking this to a personal level.
And to tell you the truth, I didn't choose to be in this forum and there are others close to my level of playing who will be in the website.
I play pool, I practice a lot, I am a woman, and thats all the website is about so CHILL.
This is great though, this is exactly what the forum was about, the make people watch and you did it. Thank You

Borana, when I used the word "immature", it was in reference to the attention you were receiving. You can read it again, the post is still there.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Beautiful girl, beautiful case. But from a woman player's point-of-view, the site itself is basically 'fluff', and definitely appears to be geared towards men as visitors.

Quality pictures of beautiful pool players is all well and good, as long as the site is balanced with content of substance. That appears to be currently lacking, hopefully as the site grows that will change. Just my .02 worth.

Lisa

 

[QueenB]

The website is not finished and it just started. It definetely needs more work. I would agree, it is meant for men as visitors.

 

[jimM]

You and Borana are right. The site has many different ways to go. The photos and depiction of the women players is completely up to the women themselves. I don't know that any woman would object to nice photos of themselves being shown. But if the point of someones page is to show them in their kitchen or at their job, that would be good also. We intend to have articles on the site that are written by responsible people, including the women themselves. I have a feeling that being a woman in a sport like pool, has many disadvantages as well as the obvious advantages. We will try to share the experience with everyone.

At this point, I would like to invite anyone who would like to write an article on their experiences with either playing with or teaching women, please email us. If you are a woman who wishes to tell your pool story,please contact us. If you are a woman who wishes to be on the site, please contact us. womeninpool@womeninpool.com

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

You and Borana are right. The site has many different ways to go. The photos and depiction of the women players is completely up to the women themselves. I don't know that any woman would object to nice photos of themselves being shown. But if the point of someones page is to show them in their kitchen or at their job, that would be good also. We intend to have articles on the site that are written by responsible people, including the women themselves. I have a feeling that being a woman in a sport like pool, has many disadvantages as well as the obvious advantages. We will try to share the experience with everyone.

At this point, I would like to invite anyone who would like to write an article on their experiences with either playing with or teaching women, please email us. If you are a woman who wishes to tell your pool story,please contact us. If you are woman who wishes to be on the site, please contact us. womeninpool@womeninpool.com

Thanks Jim,

I appreciate that. I hope things go well.

 

[ShootingArts]

where does jeanette rank overall?

Look, I'm from New York City. I saw the rise of Jeanette Lee first-hand. You're comparing Borana to a woman who was ranked #1 in the world. For a time, Lee was the dominant force on the WPBA and remains one of the toughest draws in the field and was the #1 ranked American as recently as 2004. Help me out here. How is she "a long ways from the best pool player" again?

Jude,

I don't claim to know why but the men are flat better than their counterparts playing in the women's pro ranks. If marketing herself as an attractive female who played pool had nothing to do with it, Jeanette would be unnoticed in the field of the top players in the US, male and female. So would the other females most of the time. Since you seem to think that being female shouldn't be part of the equation, that is how I can say quite accurately that she is a long ways from being the best pool player. She has never held the number one ranking to my knowledge. She has been ranked the number one woman which means nothing from your viewpoint since that is a sexist ranking and of course rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. You have to be consistent.

You seem to think that marketing is wrong or it is wrong to market yourself unless you are at the top of the heap. I simply pointed out that marketing yourself from day one is a smart part of the path to success. Jeanette is smart, attractive, a bit exotic, and plays a fine game of pool. Her pool playing abilities are not what have made her the most marketable player in the US however.

Jeanette didn't have a snowball's chance in hell playing speed pool against the best men but I didn't see you complaining about her exposing much more than this young lady has in these images. She also was proud to be named one of the ten sexiest women on ESPN and definitely was dressed to best show her assets when hosting her own marathon on ESPN. Jeanette has used all of the tools at her disposal to succeed while maintaining a classy image. Few arenas are tougher to succeed in than professional pool, men's or women's, and my hat is off to her. Jeanette seems on the verge of breaking through to being a generally recognized celebrity with some help from a push by ESPN.

Where you and I part company is in thinking that it is wrong for others to follow suit. To really make money most pool players have to be entertainers or corporate shills. Either is best served by a lifetime of molding and polishing your image and marketing yourself.

Hu

 

[Williebetmore]

Jude,
If marketing herself as an attractive female who played pool had nothing to do with it, Jeanette would be unnoticed in the field of the top players in the US, male and female. So would the other females most of the time.

. She has been ranked the number one woman which means nothing from your viewpoint since that is a sexist ranking and of course rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.

Jeanette is smart, attractive, a bit exotic, and plays a fine game of pool. Her pool playing abilities are not what have made her the most marketable player in the US however.

Jeanette didn't have a snowball's chance in hell playing speed pool against the best men


Hu

Hu,
I'm going to have to disagree with your assessments above.

Jeanette's times in speed pool practice were as good as the best players in the world. Are you saying that the few racks in front of the television camera were an indicator of "not a snowball's chance"??? You are sorely mistaken on this point. I've seen the best speed pool players play racks in 3 minutes (not EVERY rack is a 50 second masterpiece). Speed pool is stupid, and there is great rack to rack variation; you do her a disservice by trying to estimate talent based on such a small sample of racks.

Comparing the men to women is difficult anyway when you are playing those silly, power-break, short-race, rotation games. I noticed Jeanette (STILL not even close to 100% following her 8th major spine surgery last year) rolled over Ralf Souquet in the World Straight Pool championship. I'm not saying she is a better player than Ralf, but DAMN that was ultra-impressive to anyone who appreciates good pool.

I can't believe that Jasmine's and Jeanette's performances in the World Straight Pool tournament would (as you say) go "unnoticed" if they weren't attractive. Jeanette plays an old school game that is extraordinarily ELEGANT (the game, forget the appearance). Let's give credit where it's due.

 

[ridewiththewind]

You and Borana are right. The site has many different ways to go. The photos and depiction of the women players is completely up to the women themselves. I don't know that any woman would object to nice photos of themselves being shown. But if the point of someones page is to show them in their kitchen or at their job, that would be good also. We intend to have articles on the site that are written by responsible people, including the women themselves. I have a feeling that being a woman in a sport like pool, has many disadvantages as well as the obvious advantages. We will try to share the experience with everyone.

At this point, I would like to invite anyone who would like to write an article on their experiences with either playing with or teaching women, please email us. If you are a woman who wishes to tell your pool story,please contact us. If you are a woman who wishes to be on the site, please contact us. womeninpool@womeninpool.com

Thanks, Jim. I may actually consider writing an article for the site. It has been a long time since I have written, and I cannot think of a better reason to perhaps start again.

Lisa

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,

I don't claim to know why but the men are flat better than their counterparts playing in the women's pro ranks. If marketing herself as an attractive female who played pool had nothing to do with it, Jeanette would be unnoticed in the field of the top players in the US, male and female. So would the other females most of the time. Since you seem to think that being female shouldn't be part of the equation, that is how I can say quite accurately that she is a long ways from being the best pool player. She has never held the number one ranking to my knowledge. She has been ranked the number one woman which means nothing from your viewpoint since that is a sexist ranking and of course rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. You have to be consistent.

When did I say gender-related ranking was sexist? Actually, if you did know my opinion, you'd understand that I fully support the existence of the WPBA and for good reasons! Historical-sexism has created obstacles that are unique to women. In order for them to have the opprotunity to become professional pool players, organizations like the WPBA are somewhat necessary. I really look forward to the day when all WPBA members are ranked among the best pool players in the world (a list including men) but we're not there yet and the reason for such has much much more to do with the suppression of women over 100,000 years than sexual limitations. Next time, you can just ask for my opinion. You don't have to make presumptions.

You seem to think that marketing is wrong or it is wrong to market yourself unless you are at the top of the heap. I simply pointed out that marketing yourself from day one is a smart part of the path to success. Jeanette is smart, attractive, a bit exotic, and plays a fine game of pool. Her pool playing abilities are not what have made her the most marketable player in the US however.

Market away! I have no problem with it. However, I believe this forum should have SOME integrity. Posts here are supposed to have pool-relevance. I think the many reponses that womeninpool has received have shown what is truly relevant and if you think it's pool, you're kidding yourself.

Jeanette didn't have a snowball's chance in hell playing speed pool against the best men but I didn't see you complaining about her exposing much more than this young lady has in these images. She also was proud to be named one of the ten sexiest women on ESPN and definitely was dressed to best show her assets when hosting her own marathon on ESPN. Jeanette has used all of the tools at her disposal to succeed while maintaining a classy image. Few arenas are tougher to succeed in than professional pool, men's or women's, and my hat is off to her. Jeanette seems on the verge of breaking through to being a generally recognized celebrity with some help from a push by ESPN.

I actually don't care for speed-pool and do you really think that's the bar we should measure ourselves against? GIVE ME A BREAK!

Jeanette DID have a great showing in the Straight Pool Championships back in 1999 where she beat some of the game's more recognized male players and finished 5th/6th in last years Joss Tour finale.

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3716

Where you and I part company is in thinking that it is wrong for others to follow suit. To really make money most pool players have to be entertainers or corporate shills. Either is best served by a lifetime of molding and polishing your image and marketing yourself.


Hu

I never said it's wrong for others to follow suit. Jim has every right to market whomever he pleases and he's not going to hear a peep out of me. However, the moment you post it on this forum, you subject yourself to the support/criticism of this forum's members. Personally, I'd like to see less marketing/advertising and more pool discussion in the main-forum but that's me.

 

[Rich93]

Her derrier is ugly but the face is cute and don`t care how good she is in playing pool

Borana, since you are reading these posts, let me assure you that Vagabond is probably alone in his derriere opinion. He certainly doesn't speak for me.

Sorry to turn the discussion in this direction, Jude, but I thought it ungentlemanly to let Vag's opinion stand unchallenged.

 

[QueenB]

Thanks Rich but it really does not matter to me.
I am just glad this forum turned into politics, I think its great! Give a huge applaud do Jude!

 

[ShootingArts]

I did judge by what I saw and heard

Hu,
I'm going to have to disagree with your assessments above.

WBM,

I did indeed only go by what I saw and what the commentators were saying when I was watching the speed pool event. It seemed very much like Jeanette was in there largely for "color". Her style of play handicapped her in that format. How did her average shake out in practice?

The story was much the same when she was on the other silly TV pool party show that I think Hopkins put on also. It raises Jeanette's profile and definitely adds appeal to the shows as far as the general public is concerned but I can't say either one show cased her abilities with a cue stick.

I admire Jeanette as a smart savvy businesswoman who plays pool. However in an open ranking of men and women most players around her with equal abilities in tournament play are and will remain unknowns to most, even those with some interest in pool. That is why I continue to say that being an attractive female and her marketing skills and hard work in that area are at least as important as her playing abilities in bringing her to the position of prominence she holds today.

This isn't disrespectful of Jeanette or the obstacles she has overcame. Just the opposite in fact, I respect the entire person, not just her public image. Her issues and the fact that she added being the spokesperson for MS to an already busy schedule aren't lost when I think of what she has accomplished.

Hu