Brain Food - How Would You Play This?

Jude Rosenstock said:
This is a rather interesting scenario. Both shots have the cue-ball and low-ball in identical places. How would you play them? Would you play them differently?

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I have been in this position (btw, great post), and from what I've been told (now bear in mind I am not highly experienced as everyone else here is) is to simply get near the rail, even if it means straight-on, or if it bounces a little more than expected of the end rail. And yeah, I did as others asked... I would pocket the ball..... and of course I would end up short/long/straight on the next shot.... and that is the point they simply wanted to make.... Just get to the end rail.

Archer had faced this shot, and had to pull it off and came up long, but the cut shot was definitely possible, a tall order, and pulled thru.
 
First pic, top left on the 7, 2 rails leaving about 45 deg on the 8, then just a regular smooth shot on the 8 up to the 9 around the head string, shoot the 9, no eng.......this could also be played stop eng...ie, just below the cue ball on each floating down past the middle of the table, but I don't like that play as much....always like to just use speed when possible...

Second pic, first shot is still the same, top left....feel like I have more control of speed and angle....but, it can be played with stop, just below the middle....

That, or I could just choke on the 7 and make the run-out the other player's problem ;)
 
OK.... I've done some work here with some prints of case #1 and a triangle straight edge and a protractor... and here's what I learned about trying to go 3 rails to get from the 7 to the 8.

If you set the seven and whitey exactly as shown, you'll be doing real well to contact the long rail adjacent to the 7-ball any less than 1.5 diamonds from the short rail... which would equate to a 42 degree incoming angle to the long rail... and with the english being supplied, whitey will likely come off of the long rail at ~35 degree angle, which will take it on a path to the first diamond above the foot rail... meaning there will be a strong tendency to come up straight(er) into the 8-ball when trying this route.

Two-rail position on this same path looks like the better proposition by comparison to 3 rails. In other words, spin whitey when shooting the 7... but speed-wise, try to come up short of the third rail... targeting for no lower than 2 diamonds up from the short rail... thereby giving you a good cut angle (45 degrees) to get back up-table for the 9-ball. If you hit this target, whitey will be 2 diamonds from the short rail and ~3/4 of a diamond from the side rail.

It'll be interesting to see if it pans out that way this evening.
 
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Uhhmmm, yeah...that sounds a hell of a lot more simple than going straight up & down the table with a 1/2 tip of straight draw here and there...

:) I kid, I kid! :)
 
Once you practice these shots a little bit, it's EXTREMELY easy to take a side or corner pocket scratch out of the equation completely. You can easily tell if the cueball is coming in short right above the side pocket for an automatic angle, or in the middle between the side and corner for an angle with less room for error on getting straight in. Going straight up and down the table arent shots the pros would shoot. They use these inside english paths all the time.
 
(The shot on the 7) Just as i suspected, this shot has little angle. I played it with center left 3 rails (short, long, short) and most times got very good position including the first shot. Then just cut it in the 8 and come 1 rail back for the 9 most times.

Using top left I come short of the second diamond on the long rail but it drifts down a bit to far leaving not enough angle on the 8 which i suspected. I'd never shoot it this way anyway unless of course the 8 was the last ball.

Originally I thought center right would work as well but it is really to straight to shoot this way. One tip of low only was my best option for one rail position. Just a fairly easy stroke and leave the c/b short. However it tended to go a little to far.

I played the three rail better for angle and speed. I feel my speed better coming off that third rail as I wrote in my original post.

For setup, 1 ball width from the center diamond toward the 7, then two ball widths plus a 1/2" inch for the c/b. The 7 was 1/2" off the rail.

I got what I originally thought worked best for me. The 9 footer is in my local rec room and isn't that great and a bit slow. I did that rather than make a trip to the pool room. Hey I'm lazy.

Table conditions do make difference but I think this is fairly close to what would happen on a good table. It will be interesting what others post, that is, depending how they set up the shot.

Rod
 
I won't say what is the correct shot, but I will say this....While watching the Sunday finals at Hollywood Billiards recently (Swanee Event) (from above) I made an observation that "nobody" would shoot this type of shot with top inside going two rails out.

It was "always" 1-rail with a touch of bottom right.

Two reasons (I suspect)

1 - The tight pockets at Hollywood tended to recieve Obs better that were struck with a touch of draw.

2 - Juicing the CB on those tables was the last thing you wanted to do..(touch of low right takes way less power to get down table for this type of shot)

Just my opinion...but with top inside....you are out of position for the whole shot until the cb finally gets in line....and if you miss the inside by just a little (or the rail does not grab the spin) you are sitting right on top of the 8 with nothing but a bank or safe)

But I am not saying which is the right shot.. :D
 
seymore15074 said:
Maybe for the second one. One the first one definately play it 3 rails with high left...that way you are holding an angle on the 8 so that you can get back down to the 9.

In the second one, you do not have to have an angle you can get straight in and be fine...but I would probably play it the same way, just out of habbit...and going away from habbits often reminds you why you have developed that habbit when you scratch. :p
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For my style of play, I was completely 100% right. I tried this shot about 5 times while practicing yesterday. Half a tip of right put it easily in range for the next ball in both cases. It didn't take NEARLY as much effort as I thought it would even with a shallow angle. The first time I hit it much too hard, but it just bounced back off the rail and settled right where I wanted it to be. Then I put another half a tip of right for the 8 and hit much softer. The CB ended up straight in on the 9.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
Once you practice these shots a little bit, it's EXTREMELY easy to take a side or corner pocket scratch out of the equation completely. You can easily tell if the cueball is coming in short right above the side pocket for an automatic angle, or in the middle between the side and corner for an angle with less room for error on getting straight in. Going straight up and down the table arent shots the pros would shoot. They use these inside english paths all the time.
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I would have to disagree with this statement.
 
Well.........I went to the pool hall right after work, and it was just like I thought. I stayed out until 1:30, lost $60 playing one-pocket and 9 ball, drank 8 pints of Budweiser, and smoked a whole pack of Camels. I never actually tested these shots, but they came up a few times and I decides on one all important fact. A couple of degrees angle or 1 or two beers on the first shot makes a huge difference in how I play it. Good topic. We need more like this.
 
Hierovision said:
Half a tip of right english and a hard, level stroke should send it past mid-table on the bottom cushion for both shots. I might stroke it a bit harder on the bottom setup just to get straighter on the 9. It's a lot less complicated and requires only slightly more power than any top-left english shot.
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Ditto. I think that's easier to control than the left-follow shot. :)
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is a rather interesting scenario. Both shots have the cue-ball and low-ball in identical places. How would you play them? Would you play them differently?

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Well, the second layout is NOT the result of the first layout. The nine has changed position.

For the first layout, I would play a little high-left on the seven and force the ball three rails for position on the 8 ball. Then, when shooting the 8, I'd play LOW left on the cue and draw cue ball three rails for position on the 9.

In scenario B (bottom table), I would play the same high left that I did on the 7 ball in scenario A.
 
pharaoh68 said:
Well, the second layout is NOT the result of the first layout. The nine has changed position.

For the first layout, I would play a little high-left on the seven and force the ball three rails for position on the 8 ball. Then, when shooting the 8, I'd play LOW left on the cue and draw cue ball three rails for position on the 9.

In scenario B (bottom table), I would play the same high left that I did on the 7 ball in scenario A.
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You're absolutely right. Shot 2 is not meant to be the result of shot 1. The two are identical shots with different goals in-mind. Shot 1 is the first of a three-ball sequence. Shot 2 is a shot leading to an end-ball. Your answer essentially says you would play the two the same way.

Personally (and I've realized this is a personal preference), I enjoy making sure I have an angle for the 8-ball in shot 1. For that reason alone, I would take a 1-rail route with the goal of setting up for a thin-cut on the 8-ball. The second scenario, I would also play three-rail shape since I know all I have to do is hit that lower-left quadrant and I'm making the 9-ball.
 
Rod said:
(The shot on the 7) Just as i suspected, this shot has little angle. I played it with center left 3 rails (short, long, short) and most times got very good position including the first shot. Then just cut it in the 8 and come 1 rail back for the 9 most times.

Using top left I come short of the second diamond on the long rail but it drifts down a bit to far leaving not enough angle on the 8 which i suspected. I'd never shoot it this way anyway unless of course the 8 was the last ball.

Originally I thought center right would work as well but it is really to straight to shoot this way. One tip of low only was my best option for one rail position. Just a fairly easy stroke and leave the c/b short. However it tended to go a little to far.

I played the three rail better for angle and speed. I feel my speed better coming off that third rail as I wrote in my original post.

For setup, 1 ball width from the center diamond toward the 7, then two ball widths plus a 1/2" inch for the c/b. The 7 was 1/2" off the rail.

I got what I originally thought worked best for me. The 9 footer is in my local rec room and isn't that great and a bit slow. I did that rather than make a trip to the pool room. Hey I'm lazy.

Table conditions do make difference but I think this is fairly close to what would happen on a good table. It will be interesting what others post, that is, depending how they set up the shot.

Rod
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I didn't put much time into this, but after about 3 shots it was appartent that:

Straight left seemed to work well, just as you explained, but I would be affraid of the ball getting away from me.

High left came into the long rail around 1 1/2 diamonds, which is closer to the pocket than I had expected. This is a disappointing result, straight in or not is like the flip of a coin. When I tried to muscle it, I often rattled the ball.

Low got there effortlessly, but with little consistancy from my 3-4 attempts. Once I hit the side pocket, a few times I hit the long rail, and a few times I hit the short rail. I have no doubt that with 15 minutes of practice, this shot could be scratch free; but I didn't give it time last night. Position-wise, straight in is still a threat, but not quite as much. From this day on, this is the shot I will play.

I didn't get the time to try straight right, but I will the next time I have a chance.
 
OK... here's my report after setting up case #1 last night and trying both pathes to the 8-ball numerous times:

When I originally marked all four balls' positions on the cloth, I inadvertantly set whitey exactly one ball width down-table from what I later believed to be its intended position... that being exactly 1/2 diamond from the head rail... and that is the way that I shot the shot a total of ten times... five times each way. My results were... I got out 4 out of 5 times playing 1-rail position for the 8... and got out 2 times out of 5 going the 3-rail route. The three times I didn't get out going 3-rails was due to getting too straight in on the 8-ball to get back up-table for the 9. I had to muscle whitey causing the 8 to rattle and miss. The two times that I got out going 3-rails, I successfully muscled whitety back up-table.

It was at this point that my shooting partner, Mr. J, joined me on the table and we re-examined the positioning of the cue ball... and adjusted its position the full ball width I mentioned above... placing it the ball's width up table... putting it the 1/2 diamond that I believe was intended by Jude. Both Mr. J and I shot the 7-ball shot numerous times... and both agreed that with whitey at the adjusted position, going 3-rails was the much preferred path to the 8... leaving plenty of angle (~45 degrees) to easily get whitey back up-table for the 9.

When whitey was the one-ball width down table (from the 1/2 diamond position), the shot could be played 2-rails (speed-wise to end up short of the third rail)... because the path to the third rail took it all the way down to the first diamond above the short rail on which the 8-ball was positioned just off of... leaving us too straight in on the 8. We could get whitey on a path to the second diamond by shooting softer but whitey came up way short of a good shot on the 8.

Bottomline... it was very interesting how much the shot differed with whitey being only one ball width apart... the lesson we both learned... examine these types of shots carefully... because what may seem like the obvious choice isn't the better choice of how to get from the 7 to the 8... so that you leave yourself the correct angle to get back up-river for an easy 9. :)
 
cigardave said:
Bottomline... it was very interesting how much the shot differed with whitey being only one ball width apart... the lesson we both learned... examine these types of shots carefully... because what may seem like the obvious choice isn't the better choice of how to get from the 7 to the 8... so that you leave yourself the correct angle to get back up-river for an easy 9. :)
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That is the bottom line and I agree. Just moving the c/b back or forward from the 7 a balls width makes a big difference. Players need to know which route is better from any given position.

The Wei is a bit deceiving, what route looks good by a photo may not work well in a real situation. Table conditions does make a difference. What route works well on one table may not work on another.

Rod
 
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