Break this (1)

S

spoons

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The premise is this: For whatever reason, the break didn't spread the balls out very well. Maybe your opponent missed and left you with only marginal options for break balls, maybe the rack was a slug, maybe you broke and they ran back together, or maybe your opponent missed and left you with a mess of a table. In any case, you've got very limited options, and you need to get into the rack in a hurry if you want to run any balls.

The only rule: you can't play safe. There will always be at least one ball out in the open that you can shoot, and your job is to lay out the option you'd feel most comfortable playing in a match.

With that in mind, how are you going to get into the rack? Where are your safety valves? What are your biggest worries?

I thought this might be an interesting twist. If the response is good, hopefully this will complement Jeff's "run this" threads.

Oh, and if it looks like it might go....it doesn't. ;)

CueTable Help

 
Great idea, Spoons. This one looks pretty natural to go from the 10 to the 7 to the 9. You'll break the cluster with the 9, going off the one rail.

Some very important things to note:

1) While using a rail to break clusters is not often ideal, when the cluster is already disturbed like it is in this diagram, it's perfectly reasonable. Going off the rail can actually be preferable in these cases, because you have more leeway in using side english to affect exactly where you hit the balls. This is critical and leads me to #2.

2) When using the 9, you want to "choose" which side of the cluster you're going to break. You should either choose the 2-11 or the 12-2. The 12-2 is probably preferable, but there are benefits to both. The important thing here is, as a general rule, you never want to go into the bottom ball of a cluster. You usually want to keep it there as a possible next shot. They don't look like classic insurance balls but in fact they are.

If you can clip the 12-2, you might have the 6, for example. Also maybe the 5. Going into the 2-11 is a little riskier because you won't have the 6 or the 5 as insurance, though you may come out with a shot on the 11.

- Steve
 
Great post, Steve. Thanks!

Especially this part:
Steve Lipsky said:
you never want to go into the bottom ball of a cluster. You usually want to keep it there as a possible next shot. They don't look like classic insurance balls but in fact they are.
Click to expand...

This is probably old hat to a lot of folks, but i'm pretty new to 14.1 and that was the first time I'd heard that.

How hard would you hit that break shot on the 9?
 
Steve Lipsky said:
The important thing here is, as a general rule, you never want to go into the bottom ball of a cluster. You usually want to keep it there as a possible next shot. They don't look like classic insurance balls but in fact they are.

- Steve
Click to expand...

SL,
I have just one word for people reading your post....NUGGET!!!

I've not really heard this general principle before; it REALLY makes sense. Many thanks. I've always felt badly going into the pack without insurance balls (often necessary as in this case); your advice will make me feel much better the next time I play; and will give me a strategy to use.
 
I was actually thinking 10 to the 9 to the 7. Shoot the 9 as a stop shot and have that angle off the 7 straight into the 2,11.
 
I'd like to know your thoughts on rolling the 10 in and gently breaking with the 7 using a touch of inside english and maintain the 9 as a safety valve. It looks like the cue can come off the rail without disturbing the 9.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I was actually thinking 10 to the 9 to the 7. Shoot the 9 as a stop shot and have that angle off the 7 straight into the 2,11.
Click to expand...
If you go into "edit" mode on the CueTable, you will see that the 9 doesn't fit past the 7. If it did, that would be my preference, too.

As for playing 10, 7-break, it looks to me like the cue ball will hit the 9 a little if you try that. If it is clear, it does have the advantage of position on the 9.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I was actually thinking 10 to the 9 to the 7. Shoot the 9 as a stop shot and have that angle off the 7 straight into the 2,11.
Click to expand...

Nice idea Dennis, and if the 9 passes the 7 ball, I might have gone for that too. But, that's actually the exact two ball cluster that I added the little caveat for. If it looks like it passes....it doesn't. So in this scenario, say the 9 doesn't pass. Knowing that, what would you try instead?
 
3andstop said:
I'd like to know your thoughts on rolling the 10 in and gently breaking with the 7 using a touch of inside english and maintain the 9 as a safety valve. It looks like the cue can come off the rail without disturbing the 9.
Click to expand...


Where would you try to hit the cluster? And, assuming that you have to utilize the 9 as insurance after your break shot, what would you play position for next?

My biggest worry would be that is there's a good possibility that I'm going to end up bridging over a ball to shoot a fairly steep cut on the 9. Depending on how they spread, I might also have to do some work with the cue ball. Both of those scare me away.

Granted, it might not matter for me anyway, because there's a good chance I'd miss the shot on the 7 or miss the rack with the cue ball in the first place. :(
 
spoons said:
Nice idea Dennis, and if the 9 passes the 7 ball, I might have gone for that too. But, that's actually the exact two ball cluster that I added the little caveat for. If it looks like it passes....it doesn't. So in this scenario, say the 9 doesn't pass. Knowing that, what would you try instead?
Click to expand...

Since that is the case, I guess I would be back to Steve's solution. 10,7,9 into the rail and back towards the 12,2 or 5,11.
 
Bob Jewett said:
If you go into "edit" mode on the CueTable, you will see that the 9 doesn't fit past the 7. If it did, that would be my preference, too.

As for playing 10, 7-break, it looks to me like the cue ball will hit the 9 a little if you try that. If it is clear, it does have the advantage of position on the 9.
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

I agree that the 9 doesn't look like it will pass the 7.
I think if you do a near stop shot on the 10, then you could have an angled cut on the 7 that will break up the 5/11 side of the rack, then shoot the 9 and break up the other side.
What do you think?

-Mathew Pugh
 
Great idea spoons. I think this will be fun. Another series that would be incredibly useful to be hosted by anyone who has decent cloth and decent balls, would be a cluster series. Show a cluster and a given direction of impact and speed and have us guess where the balls will end up.

As for this layout, I was thinking like 3andstop until I read Steve's post.
Thanks for a very informative post Steve. I'll be keeping that rule in mind from now on.

Care has to be taken with that 10-ball though. You can't underfollow or overfollow it. If you overshoot you can't make the 7 because the 9 will block you. If you undershoot, you'll have a hard time holding the cueball for the 9. I guess if you undershoot, you can at least go into the pile from there, so my thoughts would be to err on the short side.

Below, the shaded area is where I think you'd have to leave the cueball to be able to have proper position on the 9 after the 7. I don't see anything wrong with just nudging the outside of the 5-ball when playing the 7.

CueTable Help

 
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This really is a neat idea and will compliment Bluepepper's "run this" series. This rack looks like a mess. I mean, you have no other choice than 10, 7, 9. I'm sure I'd screw it up after the 7 ball.
MULLY
 
The weird thing is that I was going to make a post about not hitting the bottom ball in a cluster, and then bam, spoons gave me the perfect thread to just reply.

Anyway, to answer the question about how hard I'd hit the 9... not hard at all. Once the balls are mostly broken like this, you want to move them very lightly. That said... I find that most players will benefit from hitting all break shots (primary and secondary) just a tad harder than they normally do. Once you get to the near-pro level, you'll be able to comfortably veer away from this strategy - but until then, I really recommend that people try this.

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
The weird thing is that I was going to make a post about not hitting the bottom ball in a cluster, and then bam, spoons gave me the perfect thread to just reply.

Anyway, to answer the question about how hard I'd hit the 9... not hard at all. Once the balls are mostly broken like this, you want to move them very lightly. That said... I find that most players will benefit from hitting all break shots (primary and secondary) just a tad harder than they normally do. Once you get to the near-pro level, you'll be able to comfortably veer away from this strategy - but until then, I really recommend that people try this.

- Steve
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was taking DiLiberto's advice about "You don't have to go into balls very hard" and finding that more often than not I was getting stuck inside or not clearing the pack enough to get a good shot. Lately I hit them a little stiffer.
MULLY
 
Thanks for all the replies. There's been some really good discussion so far!

I'm glad you folks like the idea. To be honest, it's a little self serving in that lately I've found myself having a hard time getting the balls open to where I have more than one shot option. And, I'm looking for some help with that part of the game. But, I figured that if I'm having a hard time with it, maybe someone else is too.
 
spoons said:
Where would you try to hit the cluster? And, assuming that you have to utilize the 9 as insurance after your break shot, what would you play position for next?
Click to expand...

After shooting the 7 I'd be trying to hit the cluster on the near side of the 6 and into the 12 gently. The cue ball should run right around and open up the five also. Then two rail position to the center of the table would be natural from the 9.

It just seems slightly higher percentage to me, to leave the 9 for a safety valve than it does shooting it off prior to going into the cluster. Thats the only reason I'd be trying to roll easy to position on the 7 first.
 
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Being that there's no real certainty regardless of the initial approach, one could stop on the 7, pocket the 9 with the intention of just parting the 13-15 as you come off the bottom cushion (perhaps developing a breakball in the process), and then re-break off the 6.
 
Rik,

In my opinion you will find yourself with no shot a majority of the time that you try this. If you hit the upper part of the 13 (as viewed on the screen), there is a good chance your cueball will carom off and be behind the 13 for no shot on the 6 (you might have a shot at the 15 in the side, but that's about it). If you hit the lower part of the 13 (as viewed on the screen), you will carom into the 6 and possibly move the 6 to an unmakeable position.

Finally, if you hit the 13 perfectly square, you will have a shot at the 6 but it will be very close quarters. You'll have to be careful of a double-hit.

In none of these scenarios do you have anything resembling an insurance ball, other than that 6 (which according to how I'm seeing it is not going to work most of the time).

Maybe I am seeing this wrong... what do you think?

- Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Rik,

In my opinion you will find yourself with no shot a majority of the time that you try this. If you hit the upper part of the 13 (as viewed on the screen), there is a good chance your cueball will carom off and be behind the 13 for no shot on the 6 (you might have a shot at the 15 in the side, but that's about it). If you hit the lower part of the 13 (as viewed on the screen), you will carom into the 6 and possibly move the 6 to an unmakeable position.

Finally, if you hit the 13 perfectly square, you will have a shot at the 6 but it will be very close quarters. You'll have to be careful of a double-hit.

In none of these scenarios do you have anything resembling an insurance ball, other than that 6 (which according to how I'm seeing it is not going to work most of the time).

Maybe I am seeing this wrong... what do you think?

Oh, you make good points. Mine was just playing for the spirit of the thread and suggesting another approach that hadn't been mentioned. Again, and IMHO, a real time layout like this has a definite factor of uncertainty regardless of plan. IOW, I don't think the outcome of parting the balls, given this layout, can be precisely predicted.

_Rick
Click to expand...
 
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