breakshot WWYD?

[Dan White]

Actually, why talk about it when you can see it for yourself. I've seen this video several times, but it isn't until now that I realize that they edited the shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKw56oAA-E

At 45 seconds he starts describing the first break shot. He pockets the ball and then they immediately flip to an overhead shot. Then at 1:10 he says, "Now that's better." I never really understood why he said that until now. If you look at the balls just after he breaks the rack and compare it to the layout in the overhead it is clear that they are two different break shots! In the first break it looked like the cue ball rested near the foot rail and he may not have had a shot. In the second view the cue ball comes off the foot rail and he says, "Now that's better."

At 3:50 he starts discussing the next break shot, and at 4:25 he says that he had to put more spin on the cue ball to keep the cue ball at that end of the table (because the break shot was straighter).

I have to admit that he didn't actually come out and clearly say "I am putting right english on the ball so that when it bounces off the foot rail it will not roll uptable." Instead, he said in the first break that the high right keeps the cue ball at "this" end of the table. On the second break he said he has to use a lot more spin to "try to hold the ball down here." I assume he wanted more english because the cue ball would have been moving faster in the shallower second break, and needed some good spin to prevent it from going uptable. You can clearly see the cue ball jump to the right after hitting the rail.

Anyway, we can't dispute that right english will prevent you from losing the cue ball uptable, so it is a good reason to use it. Willie doesn't come out and say it 100%, but I think it is clear that is what he means.

 

[alphadog]

Notice the break at 4.25 cueball gets hit by object ball and cueball ends up near bottom rail. If that kiss doesnt happen cueball goes into the 3 loose balls that were bottom right corner of the rack. That is what was "devastating" me. Getting trapped right there,

 

[sfleinen]

Notice the break at 4.25 cueball gets hit by object ball and cueball ends up near bottom rail. If that kiss doesnt happen cueball goes into the 3 loose balls that were bottom right corner of the rack. That is what was "devastating" me. Getting trapped right there,

While the "conventional wisdom" keeps saying to put top outside on that classic break shot (and you see evidence of that conventional wisdom here in this thread), some of us know Bad Things(TM) do happen with that classic break shot with that traditional approach.

Like you say, the kisses the cue ball makes as it fights its way through that calamity it caused, for the coin-flip chance that it might end up in a nice spot behind the rack with a shot at one of the two bottom corner pockets. You can see that in the Mosconi video that Dan White shared above -- in the very first break shot he demonstrated, the first shot right after that break shot, he had no clear shot except for a combination. (An easy combination, to be sure, but still a combo.)

Me? Coin-flip odds say that I end up with no shot at all. My cue ball ends up in the area behind the rack, all right, but I'm looking at clusters of balls that must've had a past life as blood platelets or something -- no clear shot in those bottom two pockets. So I have to shoot uptown (towards the head-end corner pockets) in close proximity to the object ball (risky business). I'm half-Irish, and you'd say "the luck of the Irish," right? Yeah, right. Murphy is Irish, too, and he and I go way back, in Hatfield/McCoy fashion.

Give the low-inside technique a try. You may have to compensate for the deflection (i.e. aim a bit fatter than you'd normally shoot a cut-shot like that, because you're going to give it some oomph and the cue ball will deflect some). The cue ball will pull to the cushion after contacting the rack, and then spin out to the center of the table. I find that I have a greater selection of shots from up there, and my cue ball isn't trying to fight its way through the rack of balls, kissing everything on its way through the calamity to the back rail, where you may find you have no shot in that area anyway.

Just IMHO; sharing something that I found helped me in the same situation you describe.
-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Actually, why talk about it when you can see it for yourself. I've seen this video several times, but it isn't until now that I realize that they edited the shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRKw56oAA-E

At 45 seconds he starts describing the first break shot. He pockets the ball and then they immediately flip to an overhead shot. Then at 1:10 he says, "Now that's better." I never really understood why he said that until now. If you look at the balls just after he breaks the rack and compare it to the layout in the overhead it is clear that they are two different break shots! In the first break it looked like the cue ball rested near the foot rail and he may not have had a shot. In the second view the cue ball comes off the foot rail and he says, "Now that's better."

At 3:50 he starts discussing the next break shot, and at 4:25 he says that he had to put more spin on the cue ball to keep the cue ball at that end of the table (because the break shot was straighter).

I have to admit that he didn't actually come out and clearly say "I am putting right english on the ball so that when it bounces off the foot rail it will not roll uptable." Instead, he said in the first break that the high right keeps the cue ball at "this" end of the table. On the second break he said he has to use a lot more spin to "try to hold the ball down here." I assume he wanted more english because the cue ball would have been moving faster in the shallower second break, and needed some good spin to prevent it from going uptable. You can clearly see the cue ball jump to the right after hitting the rail.

Anyway, we can't dispute that right english will prevent you from losing the cue ball uptable, so it is a good reason to use it. Willie doesn't come out and say it 100%, but I think it is clear that is what he means.

Dan:

Very astute observation! Every time I watch that video, I always wondered why Willie said, "Now that's better!" Better than/from what? I never thought to look at the layout just before the camera view changed to an overhead, compared to the camera overhead view itself. Wow. How come noone else noticed this? It might cause some scuff with the Mosconi deity worshippers, but that's an editing job right there.

How do you tell? When Willie executes that break shot, watch the bottom left corner pocket (as you, the viewer, watches it from behind the table -- your left). You'll notice *no balls* go towards that pocket at all -- none come even near it, nor are any balls on a trajectory towards that pocket. Yet, when the camera switches to an overhead view, you see a ball jarring in that pocket, setting up the first-shot-after-the-break combination shot that I described in my previous post.

Editing job aside, that's what we both are talking about -- Willie probably had no shot after the break, so they cut the tape so Willie could execute it again. "Now that's better."

Sharp eyes, Dan!
-Sean

 

[Dan White]

While the "conventional wisdom" keeps saying to put top outside on that classic break shot (and you see evidence of that conventional wisdom here in this thread), some of us know Bad Things(TM) do happen with that classic break shot with that traditional approach.

To repeat, I also think a lot has to do with the table you are playing on. I couldn't execute the inside draw shot for my life on my old table, but I could execute a HIGH inside shot. The cue ball came around the corner and out into the clear pretty nicely with high inside. Most of the balls go away from the near corner pocket, so the cue ball typically would not get kissed on its way to the middle of the table. On my table now, I'd probably end up at the head of the table with high inside.

 

[sfleinen]

To repeat, I also think a lot has to do with the table you are playing on. I couldn't execute the inside draw shot for my life on my old table, but I could execute a HIGH inside shot. The cue ball came around the corner and out into the clear pretty nicely with high inside. Most of the balls go away from the near corner pocket, so the cue ball typically would not get kissed on its way to the middle of the table. On my table now, I'd probably end up at the head of the table with high inside.

Yup, you do what you got to do for what works for you, not by what "conventional wisdom" says. Often, the equipment itself dictates what works and what doesn't.

Good point,
-Sean

 

[3andstop]

I was envisioning an even thinner hit break shot. I really couldn't see the angle well in that giant photo,I resized it and looked again, but regardless this is still a thin enough angle for my main point to be valid.

Note, if you see my post, I mentioned how I felt the CB reacted "AFTER" the contact with the rack as merely a secondary point. In that aspect of the shot, you do what is comfortable.

My main point, and the thing to take away from my thought was, on a thin cut the inside english has ALL to do with the cut and making the shot and LITTLE to do with path of the CB after rack contact. So, please don't focus on the rack contact. I was thinking about the higher percentage way of making the thin firm cut.

Once again, on thin cuts, outside english, be it high, low or center, will squirt the CB in toward the OB and can cause unwanted fatter hit on the OB. This is one reason these cuts are missed. They are rarely over cut, most often undercut and lots of time because the CB squirts into the OB and causes the miss without the shooter even realizing what happened.

Many players opt to use the inside because it will slightly squirt the CB away from the OB enhancing the desired result thin hit. Of course a laser eyed youngster doesn't care. :smile:

That was the main thought of my suggesting the inside, a little insurance for very thin hits.

I also mentioned that on very thin cuts outside english will not throw the OB much so there is no benefit in that area to use it.

 

[Marop]

I was envisioning an even thinner hit break shot. I really couldn't see the angle well in that giant photo,I resized it and looked again, but regardless this is still a thin enough angle for my main point to be valid.

Note, if you see my post, I mentioned how I felt the CB reacted "AFTER" the contact with the rack as merely a secondary point. In that aspect of the shot, you do what is comfortable.

My main point, and the thing to take away from my thought was, on a thin cut the inside english has ALL to do with the cut and making the shot and LITTLE to do with path of the CB after rack contact. So, please don't focus on the rack contact. I was thinking about the higher percentage way of making the thin firm cut.

Once again, on thin cuts, outside english, be it high, low or center, will squirt the CB in toward the OB and can cause unwanted fatter hit on the OB. This is one reason these cuts are missed. They are rarely over cut, most often undercut and lots of time because the CB squirts into the OB and causes the miss without the shooter even realizing what happened.

Many players opt to use the inside because it will slightly squirt the CB away from the OB enhancing the desired result thin hit. Of course a laser eyed youngster doesn't care. :smile:

That was the main thought of my suggesting the inside, a little insurance for very thin hits.

I also mentioned that on very thin cuts outside english will not throw the OB much so there is no benefit in that area to use it.

Excellent post...

 

[poolmouse]

This breakshot "devastated" me
2 views for ball placement recognition.
Post some ideas and I will post up my results.
Diamond table 4" pockets and very humid

If you know which ball within the rack your cue will hit, and how it will carom off that ball, you can predict to a reasonable degree where the cue will go after impact.

I usually don't hit break shots too hard. I prefer to break the balls free enough to make them, but not enough to send them all over the table.

If I can keep all the balls at the foot of the table, I'm happy.

 

[alphadog]

If you know which ball within the rack your cue will hit, and how it will carom off that ball, you can predict to a reasonable degree where the cue will go after impact.

I usually don't hit break shots too hard. I prefer to break the balls free enough to make them, but not enough to send them all over the table.

If I can keep all the balls at the foot of the table, I'm happy.

Many will argue that it is impossible to break the stack, and predict where the balls are going. Story is Mosconi could call the break ball for the next rack before he hit the stack!

 

[poolmouse]

Many will argue that it is impossible to break the stack, and predict where the balls are going. Story is Mosconi could call the break ball for the next rack before he hit the stack!

Agreed. My point was that when I break my only goal is to not lose control of the cue ball.

 

[alinco]

I'm very impressed with all the knowledge in this thread! I'm no straight pool master by any means but I thouroughly enjoy studying break shots.

Put me in the camp that wants to know exactly where in the stack I'm hitting. In the photo it looks like it will be either the 2 or 3. Can't tell without looking straight at the stack from behind the 12. Here's what I do:

If I'm hitting the 3 almost straight on - then the cue ball will lose a lot of speed. I don't follow this - you'll get stuck unless you have a high level professional stroke. I draw this one and like Sean mentioned use a little inside if you're comfortable.

If I'm hitting the bottom of the 3 then the cue ball is going to want to head to the rail pretty quickly. You need to make sure you've got a smooth follow stroke. I like outside on this shot for the reasons mentioned above. You want to spin off the end rail and back into something or you'll wind up frozen to the top rail (with my luck!). I don't like inside draw on this because the cue goes forward pretty quickly and you're not going to spin to the middle of the table anyway.

If I can't tell if it will contact the 2 or the 3 first, then I draw it. This avoids shooting into the corner pocket if it catches the 3 first. I find this shot unpredictable but draw will prevent scratching. I don't hit this one hard at all.

If I'm hitting the top of the 2 - you have choices. The 2 is so low down that a nice follow stroke will go through the pack. Make sure your stroke is smooth and not "hard". You can stick if you don't follow like you mean it. I sometimes just use draw on this shot. Cue ball screams up table and rebounds back to almost the middle. I'm not sure what it is but a good draw stroke just always seems to avoid those corner pockets.

I don't follow the rule of thumb of follow/draw based on cue ball to object ball position. I do find one very true fact: if you draw every break shot you'll never stick to the rack! Of course you can wind up table but I use the contact point to judge how fast the cue will draw. Just note that draw will use up some of the energy and will result in less energy spreading the balls.

Maybe all this analysis is why I never execute on the table!

Andy