Bring Back Hustling Culture

[SLO-ROLL]

If you don’t want to chance loosing your $ don’t bet. It’s that simple. Nobody is forcing these “beginners” to gamble, especially with someone they don’t know or know how well they play.

 

[SBC]

By the logic given so far, schools of fish pack in to every casino on the face of the planet all day, every day waiting to be hustled, and there is no shortage of business, despite people booking losers 99.999% of the time. Only the 'big scores' are discussed.

Are these casinos parasites as well? Are the people willingly handing over their cash despite knowing (or not) the odds of booking a winner are not in their favor victims in a similar regard? Many don't believe so. Most people call them dumbasses.

Discuss.

Anybody who frequents a casino, playing their game, hates their money. Playing poker against other players can be profitable, but you better be dam good at it.

You gotta be smart in pool in picking your spots and making the game....especially if you are the weaker player. Many medicore players, excel at getting games they can win. Especially if they are known to have money and be good action.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Anybody who frequents a casino, playing their game, hates their money. Playing poker against other players can be profitable, but you better be dam good at it.

You gotta be smart in pool in picking your spots and making the game....especially if you are the weaker player. Many medicore players, excel at getting games they can win. Especially if they are known to have money and be good action.

People live predictable lives. They can tell you to the cent what their paycheck will be. They know what it will take to save a certain amount of money. A casino is an unpredictable.

They may walk out with a pocket full of money. For a change, there is something different. It is more understandable then one may think. Same with a lottery ticket. Unfortunately it is the same desires that may make someone cheat on there spouse.

"The mass of men live lives of quiet desperation”

 

[MitchAlsup]

People live predictable lives. They can tell you to the cent what their paycheck will be.

During the time I worked (1975..2016), I could not tell you the last 4 digits of my pay check.

$xx,xyy.yy

I knew what the xs were, but I cared not about what the ys were.
Much of the time, I did not know what the lower order x was, either.
only the top 2 digits are/were important.

 

[middleofnowhere]

During the time I worked (1975..2016), I could not tell you the last 4 digits of my pay check.

$xx,xyy.yy

I knew what the xs were, but I cared not about what the ys were.
Much of the time, I did not know what the lower order x was, either.
only the top 2 digits are/were important.

I don't know your job but jobs like that can be attactive and exciting. Some people like the unknown, even the insecurity, such as selling real estate.

You take the average clock puncher, not so. Their lives are boring. Everyday the same. A job making just enough money to keep you from quiting but hate every day they go in.

I was in the bar business, I saw them all the time. Some looked one step from sucking the barrel of a gun. There are some unhappy people in this world.

However, jobs with uncertainty are not for everybody. The world needs the clock puncher's and they need a little excitement once and a while.

 

[MitchAlsup]

You take the average clock puncher, not so. Their lives are boring. Everyday the same. A job making just enough money to keep you from quiting but hate every day they go in.

I spend 40 years designing computers from the chips inward.
Never "did" the same thing twice,
Started out making over $100K,
Ended up making well north of 300K,
never had to manage anyone (except myself).

For the first 20 years, I would have probably come to work even if they didn't pay me--because it was so much fun.
For the first 35 years I could not understand why anyone would ever want to actually retire.......

Sadly, I came to realize that I could not work for a large corporation, and these are the only people doing what I am actually god at.
And, so, I remain retired.

 

[boogieman]

I spend 40 years designing computers from the chips inward.
Never "did" the same thing twice,
Started out making over $100K,
Ended up making well north of 300K,
never had to manage anyone (except myself).

For the first 20 years, I would have probably come to work even if they didn't pay me--because it was so much fun.
For the first 35 years I could not understand why anyone would ever want to actually retire.......

Sadly, I came to realize that I could not work for a large corporation, and these are the only people doing what I am actually god at.
And, so, I remain retired.

I bet you'd like the Weird old tech thread.

 

[Chicagoplayer]

We have card rooms where people can go play poker, it would be cool if there was something similar for pool. "There's the $5 table, there's the $10 table, there's the no limit table." If they had a bad beat jackpot I could really make some money.

The nice thing about pool is,
that every table can be either the $5 table or the no-limit table

 

[Fatboy]

I'm not a poker player but feel there are too many variables involved in the game and neither player knows what the other is holding.

In pool, a hustler can observe a player without the other player knowing it so they can, more than likely, gauge said player's speed so the mark has already "shown his hand" so to speak with the hustler holding his cards (speed of play) close to the vest.

Same in chess

 

[middleofnowhere]

I spend 40 years designing computers from the chips inward.
Never "did" the same thing twice,
Started out making over $100K,
Ended up making well north of 300K,
never had to manage anyone (except myself).

For the first 20 years, I would have probably come to work even if they didn't pay me--because it was so much fun.
For the first 35 years I could not understand why anyone would ever want to actually retire.......

Sadly, I came to realize that I could not work for a large corporation, and these are the only people doing what I am actually god at.
And, so, I remain retired.

You're exactly the definition of Thomas Edison's quote. One asked how we could work 18 and 20 hours a day, he said he's never worked today in his life.

Unfortunately that doesn't represent most of the working public. The last job I had was in 1971 and since then I've always been self-employed. I couldn't imagine being one of those people who get up in the morning every day and go punch that clock at a job just looking forward to retirement.

 

[Fatboy]

I lost $300 gambling today.

I’ll be back on the grind tmr, staying in action.

Gambol

 

[book collector]

Lots of great comments here - I especially love hearing you guys' stories.
A lot of you didn't read the post I wrote, but to reiterate, I'm not talking about running cons, cheating, or sharking. I defined "hustling" as playing for stakes, so call it "stake playing" if the word "hustling" has too many negative connotations for you.
What I'm proposing would eliminate many of the things that those of you who are anti-hustling dislike about hustling: I propose clear rules, clearly-marked "cash" tables, a referee, etc. Of course there is nuance, and the details would need to be worked out to accomplish the general aim, but the point would be to eliminate the negatives, and keep the positives. A system could be devised for how to offer to spot balls, ask for balls to be spotted, etc. - I'd suggest writing everything like that down on a chalkboard.
As far as the gambling component, opposed to putting money on oneself, people already gamble on everything, and 99% of people who gamble on pull-tabs, lottery, etc. come out behind. Betting on the outcome of billiards games would be more interesting, and give better odds.
For fish like me, it would be like stepping up to a carnival booth and spending money to try to win a stuffed animal. I'd most probably lose, but it would be fun to play a skilled player who I know is actually trying to win, and maybe I'd get lucky. Meanwhile when the big dogs were playing one another, I'd have a chance to watch how these guys play when stakes are on the line, and wouldn't be the one weirdo watching their game.
To be clear, I'm not talking about making hustling ubiquitous in every bowling alley and bar - I'm talking about setting up specific places where playing for stakes would be done out in the open, and would be well-regulated to eliminate fights, robbery, cons, cheating, etc.

They have had a couple of guys try that , or something similar. The main objective, was to get people interested in watching the matches and then ease them into PPV. At least that is what I think it was.
Someone can feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
It may still work , I don't keep up with much any more, sounded like a good idea to me though.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I lost $300 gambling today.

I’ll be back on the grind tmr, staying in action.

Gambol

If I lost $300, my house payment wouldn't get paid for the month. We are definitely in different boats.... you are the Yahoo in the yacht, I'm the douche in a dinghy.

 

[alstl]

I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.

Bring it back buddy. Live stream it so we call all watch.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Hustling? It’s been romanticized much like the Wild West and the Mafia. There’s no future ini it. Never has been. I’ve never seen a road man living in Beverly Hills or staying at the Plaza in New York.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

It’s not about getting rich, it’s just about making your way in this world doing what you like, or at least avoiding what you don’t like ; )

I was a road man myself for a few years at different times in my life. It was easy when I was a teenager, as I didn’t go to school and my dad's basement was a consistent base of operations I could return to rent free whenever necessary.

Later in life after my army days I went at it again but I was out west where I didn’t know anyone.

Pool wasn’t my hustle, I hadn’t discovered the game yet but it would’ve been more honorable I suppose lol.

It’s true there’s no retirement plan from this kind of stuff but you really only get one chance to ride this crazy rock around the sun. I guess it depends on your personality and skill set.

I ended up getting my lady pregnant while drying out and prepping for another excursion and that changed my trajectory to mostly safe and boring. I still don’t know what I wanna be when I grow up, if that ever happens

I stayed at the Broadmoor more than once and yucked it up with rich folk while I was on my tear. I don’t know if that compares to this Plaza though. Never stepped into California

 

[Phil Carr]

There is much to be credited in your excellent article regarding 'hustling'. You mention referees, and 'bouncers', both great ideas but did you stop to consider that they might want to be...er....paid? A qualified referee (and I would consider no other) does cost quite a bit and would drain the pot considerably if paid from the winnings.
That's not to say I don't think your suggestion is a great idea. There is currently a real lack of 'romance' in the game of pool and yes, I for one would love to see excellent players compete right here in the pool hall. As you say, much better than the omnipresent mindless lottery schemes in existence.
The only question, as you say, is the 'authorities' as they too would want their cut, which is probably the main reason why such games are no longer in existence. Forgive me for preaching politics, but isn't this yet another case as to why government should GET OUT of our lives and let us pursue harmless pleasures on our OWN terms?
I enjoyed your article (ignore the morons who have no patience to read interesting facts or ideas), and welcome to the forum.
Don't forget that many halls operate money tournaments. I have seen huge interest grow and grow, and despite being against all forms of 'gambling', I don't see any harm in exponentially increasing pool halls earnings by supporting these types of tournaments. You always have the choice of whether to participate or not!!

 

[John the Barber Naples]

"Hustler" can only be called a subculture anyway, and honestly, why go through all the trouble of the "Gin bottle filled with water, stumbling sneaky pete" routine when you can just go to your old pool hall and say something like "I am a pool shootin boy my name is Willy McCoy, but down home they call me 'Slim?'" The REAL way to get the (color of blood) money flowing in pool is from THE TOP DOWN. Has anyone noticed how hideous the entire monetized Pool Tournament Landscape has become? Even at the Mosconi Cup the players walk between cheesy "flame machines," and have to wear doubleknit shirts like Bucking (rodeo horse) NASCAR drivers! The players sit in sterile, zero personality chairs that are LOWER than the surface of the pool tables, its so sterile and boring! Anyway, a client just came in so my indictment will have to wait. Signed, John The Barber, Naples (fb)

 

[Freddy Fuzzmore]

My hustler career ended when I was seventeen. It was difficult being a pool hustler. At seventeen no one took me seroius and I didn't have the experience necessary to land me in the right places. So in 1970 me and a buddy were at a bowling alley in San Jose playing pool. Must have had half a dozen tables in the place. There was another young guy playing perty good so I went over and asked him if he wanted to play for money. Like minded he agreed on a twenty dollar bet. I don't remember what game or how many we played but I did take his twenty bucks. I win he leaves and me and my buddy stay and spend his money. Gosh we were having fun. Me and my bud had two new motorsicles we had ridden to the bowling alley. Had them parked right out front side by side. Mine had all the cables cut and the seat cut to shreds. Took a lot more than twenty bucks to replace all the parts and I had to hear from the folks. If I ever take up hustling again, I'm walking.

 

[Woody Woodward]

I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.

There are a lot of reasons why pool culture has been declining for a couple decades. Films like The Color of Money and The Hustler had a lot of impact on reviving the game at points in the past, and even though there are new movies on pool, they're not as mainstream or popular or promoted as the Paul Newman ones.
Also there's a lack of incentive for new players to get in the game, financially speaking. If you look at snooker, the top prizes for tournament play is a lot higher than prize money for pool tournaments. A top 5 snooker player can earn a very good living playing. Just from purse money. It takes a lot of time and effort to be one of the best and a lot of people just don't have the time to devote to playing.
Hustler culture is romantic sounding but it's not good for the game to basically run off weaker players by hustling them. Old school pool halls had coffee and sandwiches for sale and no alcohol or music until after 5pm. So that the older people could concentrate on a very demanding game. Times have indeed changed. But the future of pool is up for grabs if anyone can revitalize it for the next generation. Btw, I think you made a good reading thread.