Buying an LD shaft for a production cue?

[Mikjary]

This question might've been posted before or addressed in numerous threads, but I think it needs to be brought up again to definitively answer the reasoning behind it. I've recently returned to the game after a 20 year layoff (2 kids) and the first thing I noticed was the abundance of new cuemakers making custom cues. This thread is not directed at them. They are making individual cues to specs for a player. Some really nice stuff out there I might add.

The first thing I did was buy 3 (American made) production cues for around $4-$600 each. I figured it was enough money to spend for starter cues. The shafts were not really what I wanted for consistency so I bought LD shafts and tried those. They hit better than the production shafts, but only about as good as I was used to when I bought a production cue years ago. Am I alone on this?

In the 70's and 80's I owned several customs and many production cues. All shafts are not created equal and some of them were mediocre at best. But the large majority of them hit pretty good. Finally getting to the point of this thread, why should I have to buy a an upgrade shaft? You can always answer that if I spent more shekels I would've gotten what I was looking for, but is that true? Does anybody have a cue they spent a dime or more on and then went out and bought a different shaft for it?

I have read that some of the manufacturers are offering better shafts as an option. But why not make the better shaft a standard item that comes with every cue? I'm not trying to step on the LD shaft maker's toes here as they currently are the LD shaft suppliers to some of these production companies, but why has the quality gone down so far that we are even given these shafts we will never use? Quit making them!

A production cue in a certain price range should have a very good to top quality shaft. We buy the simpler butts to fit a budget with the intention of adding the LD shaft. I'm not talking about entry level cues or off brands that are cheaply made. A cue in the $4-$600 range with no inlays, no points, no anything should at least come with a shaft you don't have to shelf before you even try it. Why even send it with the cue? Just sell butts and reduce the price.

I'll end this pathetic, whiny rant with a thought. I've noticed a production cuemaker (not American) moving in this direction. Flame me if you want, but is the industry moving this way and should they if they're not?

Best,
Mike

 

[ShootingArts]

all those cue makers and cues being made

This question might've been posted before or addressed in numerous threads, but I think it needs to be brought up again to definitively answer the reasoning behind it. I've recently returned to the game after a 20 year layoff (2 kids) and the first thing I noticed was the abundance of new cuemakers making custom cues. This thread is not directed at them. They are making individual cues to specs for a player. Some really nice stuff out there I might add.

The first thing I did was buy 3 (American made) production cues for around $4-$600 each. I figured it was enough money to spend for starter cues. The shafts were not really what I wanted for consistency so I bought LD shafts and tried those. They hit better than the production shafts, but only about as good as I was used to when I bought a production cue years ago. Am I alone on this?

In the 70's and 80's I owned several customs and many production cues. All shafts are not created equal and some of them were mediocre at best. But the large majority of them hit pretty good. Finally getting to the point of this thread, why should I have to buy a an upgrade shaft? You can always answer that if I spent more shekels I would've gotten what I was looking for, but is that true? Does anybody have a cue they spent a dime or more on and then went out and bought a different shaft for it?

I have read that some of the manufacturers are offering better shafts as an option. But why not make the better shaft a standard item that comes with every cue? I'm not trying to step on the LD shaft maker's toes here as they currently are the LD shaft suppliers to some of these production companies, but why has the quality gone down so far that we are even given these shafts we will never use? Quit making them!

A production cue in a certain price range should have a very good to top quality shaft. We buy the simpler butts to fit a budget with the intention of adding the LD shaft. I'm not talking about entry level cues or off brands that are cheaply made. A cue in the $4-$600 range with no inlays, no points, no anything should at least come with a shaft you don't have to shelf before you even try it. Why even send it with the cue? Just sell butts and reduce the price.

I'll end this pathetic, whiny rant with a thought. I've noticed a production cuemaker (not American) moving in this direction. Flame me if you want, but is the industry moving this way and should they if they're not?

Best,
Mike

Mike,

The answer to your question is as close as your local lumber yard. The wood stinks compared to what I bought in the eighties. The wood in the eighties stunk compared to what I bought in the sixties. Part of it is that we almost always remember the older stuff as being better, part of it is less quality wood being available and a lot more demand for it. Very few people have huge stocks of quality shaft wood. A lot more demand for it today and an ever decreasing supply. Veneer companies can pay more than cue builders and get the cream of the old growth maple usually adding to the supply problem.

When I buy shaft wood in bulk maybe 10 percent is fit to go on a high dollar cue if I'm lucky. Another 20 percent might be fit to put on sneaky petes or merry widows. Most of it is kindling. I find this and that use for it but it isn't going into a pool cue as a shaft or core. 70% waste brings up the price of my bulk shafts quite a bit. I can buy shafts that other people have already sorted at a premium price but the cost is the same for the amount of quality shafts, maybe even higher because I still have culls. The biggest reason for the success of the laminated shafts is that the laminations replace the lines in the wood and increase the playability of wood that would otherwise hit the kindling bin.

One little detail, I make my personal shafts out of cull shaft wood, the kindling box. They usually warp slightly in the summer and straighten in the winter. They play just fine either way.

Hu

 

[Maniac]

This question might've been posted before or addressed in numerous threads, but I think it needs to be brought up again to definitively answer the reasoning behind it. I've recently returned to the game after a 20 year layoff (2 kids) and the first thing I noticed was the abundance of new cuemakers making custom cues. This thread is not directed at them. They are making individual cues to specs for a player. Some really nice stuff out there I might add.

The first thing I did was buy 3 (American made) production cues for around $4-$600 each. I figured it was enough money to spend for starter cues. The shafts were not really what I wanted for consistency so I bought LD shafts and tried those. They hit better than the production shafts, but only about as good as I was used to when I bought a production cue years ago. Am I alone on this?

In the 70's and 80's I owned several customs and many production cues. All shafts are not created equal and some of them were mediocre at best. But the large majority of them hit pretty good. Finally getting to the point of this thread, why should I have to buy a an upgrade shaft? You can always answer that if I spent more shekels I would've gotten what I was looking for, but is that true? Does anybody have a cue they spent a dime or more on and then went out and bought a different shaft for it?

I have read that some of the manufacturers are offering better shafts as an option. But why not make the better shaft a standard item that comes with every cue? I'm not trying to step on the LD shaft maker's toes here as they currently are the LD shaft suppliers to some of these production companies, but why has the quality gone down so far that we are even given these shafts we will never use? Quit making them!

A production cue in a certain price range should have a very good to top quality shaft. We buy the simpler butts to fit a budget with the intention of adding the LD shaft. I'm not talking about entry level cues or off brands that are cheaply made. A cue in the $4-$600 range with no inlays, no points, no anything should at least come with a shaft you don't have to shelf before you even try it. Why even send it with the cue? Just sell butts and reduce the price.

I'll end this pathetic, whiny rant with a thought. I've noticed a production cuemaker (not American) moving in this direction. Flame me if you want, but is the industry moving this way and should they if they're not?

Best,
Mike

Mike, it is reasonable to assume that 1.) One man's junk is another man's treasure, and 2.) Why pay for a Lexus when a Chevy will do.

What I'm getting at here is that some people find the standard shaft that comes with their production cue to be perfectly adequate for their game/abilities. Why should an occasional player that doesn't play very often or for any other reason than for fun/socializing, but may want to own his/her own cue, be forced to pay more money for a shaft that they neither need nor will help their game? The lower priced option should ALWAYS be there for these types of people.

Then there are the persons that have and will always want to play with the standard-type shaft that comes with their cue. They have been using this type of shaft for years on end, many of them with absolute high proficiency. They do not wish to pay for the "upgraded" shaft. Heck, they wouldn't want one if you offered it to them for free.

So basically what we have is the NEED to keep cues at a standard low price so that ALL enthusiasts can afford one with an upgrade option available for those who WANT one. It's that way with many more products than just pool cues.

Hope my explanation is understandable.

Maniac

 

[Mikjary]

Mike,

The answer to your question is as close as your local lumber yard. The wood stinks compared to what I bought in the eighties. The wood in the eighties stunk compared to what I bought in the sixties. Part of it is that we almost always remember the older stuff as being better, part of it is less quality wood being available and a lot more demand for it. Very few people have huge stocks of quality shaft wood. A lot more demand for it today and an ever decreasing supply. Veneer companies can pay more than cue builders and get the cream of the old growth maple usually adding to the supply problem.

When I buy shaft wood in bulk maybe 10 percent is fit to go on a high dollar cue if I'm lucky. Another 20 percent might be fit to put on sneaky petes or merry widows. Most of it is kindling. I find this and that use for it but it isn't going into a pool cue as a shaft or core. 70% waste brings up the price of my bulk shafts quite a bit. I can buy shafts that other people have already sorted at a premium price but the cost is the same for the amount of quality shafts, maybe even higher because I still have culls. The biggest reason for the success of the laminated shafts is that the laminations replace the lines in the wood and increase the playability of wood that would otherwise hit the kindling bin.

One little detail, I make my personal shafts out of cull shaft wood, the kindling box. They usually warp slightly in the summer and straighten in the winter. They play just fine either way.

Hu

Hu,

All good points. Since I don't make cues I don't have any specific answer for the deficit in good quality lumber. I do have some experience though in lumber selection as I have been a contractor for many years. It is really tough to find good quality stock to make trim and I have all but abandoned my shapers and joiners. Unless I take on a project to match hundred year old crown moulding or the customer is old school I buy all my trim. Sadly, the owner of a local lumber yard goes through all of his new lumber shipments and removes the higher end #2 boards personally. He sells them marked up as premium clear pine to make my point about availability.

I also used to buy the higher end maple baseball bats when I lived in Florida. Everyone was using $400 aluminum bats. Not me. I love the feel of a wooden bat. I hit better than most of them with it, but they didn't last long with 90 mph fastballs. At $120 a pop the expensive aluminum suddenly became the cheaper bat. I suspect the inferior wood contributed to that breakage problem, too (along with a few bad swings).

I'm not complaining about the quality, but rather why don't we recognize it for what it is? Make the shafts better with the new technology and establish that as the new standard. Just as the automakers and many other industries are doing, improve the product in a certain price range.

If more people expressed a concern about the things they buy alot of goods and services would improve. I put alot of effort into having a satisfied customer and appreciate the gesture in return when I pay for something. I know just one comment isn't going to change a mindset, but it will be noted and possibly lead to an improvement in future planning.

Best,
Mike

 

[LAMas]

Another slant.

I shoot with a Z2 for I like the narrow diameter for tactile feel and LD characteristics.

I have several Shon, Joss and other nice looking cues with the shafts that they came with. I used to have their butts refinished when they got beat up.

A few years ago, I bought a cheap cue with a 3/8-10 pin to fit the Z2 and I don't have to refinish the butt even though it is now beat up.

I also have a 314, Z, OB, TIger and McDermitt G that hit well but I haven't got around to have them turned down to fit my hand like the Z2...so they sit in my closet LOL.

 

[Mikjary]

Mike, it is reasonable to assume that 1.) One man's junk is another man's treasure, and 2.) Why pay for a Lexus when a Chevy will do.

What I'm getting at here is that some people find the standard shaft that comes with their production cue to be perfectly adequate for their game/abilities. Why should an occasional player that doesn't play very often or for any other reason than for fun/socializing, but may want to own his/her own cue, be forced to pay more money for a shaft that they neither need nor will help their game? The lower priced option should ALWAYS be there for these types of people.

Then there are the persons that have and will always want to play with the standard-type shaft that comes with their cue. They have been using this type of shaft for years on end, many of them with absolute high proficiency. They do not wish to pay for the "upgraded" shaft. Heck, they wouldn't want one if you offered it to them for free.

So basically what we have is the NEED to keep cues at a standard low price so that ALL enthusiasts can afford one with an upgrade option available for those who WANT one. It's that way with many more products than just pool cues.

Hope my explanation is understandable.

Maniac

Maniac,

Yes, you are right. We need to keep cues at a certain price range. Millions of players have no need, interest or the cash to change anything about their production cue. That is not my reason for posting my thoughts. I'm speaking about a price range just above that level of cue. A tier above the entry level or basic to middle range of equipment. A cue for the more discerning player that is a standard product and available with the idea you don't have to improve it after you buy it.

Some cuemakers are already offering an upgraded shaft and this is good. I would like to see it spread across the board in a certain price range and become the standard shaft for this level of eqipment.

Best,
Mike

 

[TATE]

Hu,

All good points. Since I don't make cues I don't have any specific answer for the deficit in good quality lumber. I do have some experience though in lumber selection as I have been a contractor for many years. It is really tough to find good quality stock to make trim and I have all but abandoned my shapers and joiners. Unless I take on a project to match hundred year old crown moulding or the customer is old school I buy all my trim. Sadly, the owner of a local lumber yard goes through all of his new lumber shipments and removes the higher end #2 boards personally. He sells them marked up as premium clear pine to make my point about availability.

I also used to buy the higher end maple baseball bats when I lived in Florida. Everyone was using $400 aluminum bats. Not me. I love the feel of a wooden bat. I hit better than most of them with it, but they didn't last long with 90 mph fastballs. At $120 a pop the expensive aluminum suddenly became the cheaper bat. I suspect the inferior wood contributed to that breakage problem, too (along with a few bad swings).

I'm not complaining about the quality, but rather why don't we recognize it for what it is? Make the shafts better with the new technology and establish that as the new standard. Just as the automakers and many other industries are doing, improve the product in a certain price range.

If more people expressed a concern about the things they buy alot of goods and services would improve. I put alot of effort into having a satisfied customer and appreciate the gesture in return when I pay for something. I know just one comment isn't going to change a mindset, but it will be noted and possibly lead to an improvement in future planning.

Best,
Mike

Mike,

The issue is the complexity and expense of building shafts this way.
Check out the technique used to build OB shafts:

http://www.obcues.com/construction.html

OB and Predator will wholesale their unfinished shafts (partial) to cue makers, but they are considerably more expensive than building a conventional shaft.

I have a great many old cues - I think our memories of how they play is a lot better than the reality!

Chris