Call shot 10-ball is a bad idea.

JimS

Grandpa & his grand boys.
Silver Member
SJDinPHX said:
Mark, not trying to blow smoke, but I think with your knowledge of the game, and your track record, you will make the right call on any rule decision. Just the fact that you are searching for input, speaks volumes to me. I have every confidence you will promote our sport in the best way possible. Rules can always be be changed if they don't work out.

Good Luck

Dick

Couldn't agree more and this is what the internet should be. Searching for answers, discussion, open, calm, rational discussing. This is community. Gotta love it.
 

Luxury

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
enzo said:
i think in pool rules should keep to a minimum any communication you need to have with your opponent. im serious about this, all it does is cause problems and misunderstandings. the inform your opponent he's on two is a good rule i think, but jerks that you're beating up on take advantage of this stuff by acting like they dont hear you and all the other stuff ive come to expect.

seriously, no call pocket, its just a bad idea.... arguments will go up 100 times. for that reason alone its not worth it.

edit, i just had to add this..... many, many times a player will hit a shot very hard (say a long, difficult shot), miss it, then "luck" it in...... mike sigel is the best at this i think, and he's fooled people too, people think he's lucky. well, i believe that it you weigh things properly in your head, in many situations, hitting hard and missing the ball on accident but then lucking it in can be a great percentage play. "luck" isn't all it's cracked up to be, i suspect the very best players are "lucky" because they are more smart than they are lucky. in other words, we are put in situations on a pool table many times where luck will be one of our greatest allies, and the best percentage players will use this. why take this fascinating aspect out of the game.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I was playing a $100 set 8 ball after league recently and my former captain made a move and insisted he didn't hear me even though everyone watching confirmed what I called. He wouldn't budge and I lost that game but won the next and 8 ball broke on hill hill. Call shot works for the IPT when there is a referee present for every single match. That won't be the case for 10ball. More Arguments WILL happen with call shot.

Believe me the players would prefer to play by rules that would make the game more entertaining and build a bigger fanbase and bring in more money. Have you heard how the crowd always gets gitty when a ball is slopped in? Do you know why the pros go for those exciting break neck speed kick shots? 95% of those would go away. The crowd goes nuts when the 9 is slopped in. Why confuse the crowd (Or Danny Harriman) by making the 10 ball on the snap count in select pockets? The crowd loves nines and tens on the break.

Let me ask you this? Does the coin flip in a sudden death NFL overtime have anything to do with luck? Absolutely. Should they go to college rules where both teams get a chance? NO. Sudden death is more exciting.

Can the people that want to go back to the old 9 ball rules or no luck rules clarify that their priority is not for the general pool audience but so the best man can win and that the group of elite players can be the only happy ones?
 

worriedbeef

The Voice of Reason
Silver Member
hmm i'm really not sure about the call shot either. i mean, a lot of the time a knowledgeable player will play with luck in mind. for example. if i have the choice between a jump or a kick, i will choose the one where it means i can get a fuller hit on the object ball at speed to maximise my chances of lucking it in somewhere. it's part of the game.

i think making the game call shot is an almost 'unnatural' artificial way of trying to make the better player win. which would be fine if there were'nt better ways of doing it. longer races, maybe even a ten foot table. i know i've started to bang on about this a bit lately but maybe it's worth considering - this is after all about pushing the game forward and evolving the game. ten footers could be the way forward for the pro's.

but anyway call shot just changes the game too much, and not for the better. it makes it overly complicated too, which is the last thing you want when we're trying to push a game that the average joe hasn't even heard of. and this business of calling safeties too, it just ain't right. it's not what 9-ball, and ten ball, is about.
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Blackjack said:
While I agree with your view, there are parts that I don't agree with. Sit back and think about how often you actually "luck a ball in". Usually, at the pro level - it doesn't happen as much as you'd think - although it does happen and it cool to keep shooting. Occasionally we'll kick blindly at a ball and silly things happen. Yes, it helps you out when those balls drop - but when you think about it, very few of us are relying on that luck factor.

You are making my point for me. I would venture to guess that there are as many balls "bad lucked" in accidentally while playing safe as there are "good lucked" in while playing a normal shot to pocket a ball in pro events. The remainder would be on hopeless kicks. Eliminating the luck option on kicks rewards safety play over aggression. With current rules all good players know the only really good safety is the runout.

Blackjack said:
Call shot on the pro level is not restrictive, it is a necessity to raise the standard of play for the best players in the world.

Let's look at it from the chair. We both know what it's like to lose a close match because somebody $hit a ball in. That's the rolls, but if the rules are changed, it adds a new dynamic to the game - especially if the unintentionally pocketed balls are re-spotted like they were 20-25 years ago in 9 ball. That way, the ball that was $hit in comes back up and YOU come to the table. Any time you can get back to the table, that's a good thing. Right?

Luck has its place - it adds some excitement - but for the most part I don't think call shot would damage the game as much as you'd think it would. JMO.
As a lifetime player of rotation games I disagree. I played and cashed in race to 15 call shot PCA tournaments. Call shot is restrictive. Whoever makes the balls should keep shooting. It's not the luck that will be missing with call shot, it's strategy. At least ninety-five percent of luck in rotation games is in position play.

Would you want straight pool be changed to allow slopped balls? Add call shot to ten ball including on the break? Play one-pocket using call shot/call safe? I don't think so. Why exempt the break, when that is where most balls are "lucked" in?
 

Derek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I dislike "call shot" because I want all of the chances I can have when playing pro players. I'll feel so proud of myself when I slop in the 10 ball for the match against Earl. The look on his face will be priceless.

Now, I'll just need some miracle to get qualified into a pro event.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It is my opinion that maximizing the popularity of pool in general requires emphasis on the uniqueness of pool compared to other sports.

There are arguments on both sides. I like the "money ball last" compromise because it preserves most of the established character and pace of rotation pool.

pj
chgo
 

frankncali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Luxury said:
Let me ask you this? Does the coin flip in a sudden death NFL overtime have anything to do with luck? Absolutely. Should they go to college rules where both teams get a chance? NO. Sudden death is more exciting.


Way off topic here but WOW .. Do you really think that its more exciting to play sudden death than the college football overtimes??

There is nothing more exciting in football than OT. NFL OT is boring and the only reason why they dont go to the college one is time. TV times and game length is dictating the stay.
 

Southpaw

Swing away, Meril....
Silver Member
It would be very difficult rule wise and time consuming to play call all shots, IMO, but calling the 10 ball is a good idea.

Southpaw
 

Luxury

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
frankncali said:
Way off topic here but WOW .. Do you really think that its more exciting to play sudden death than the college football overtimes??

There is nothing more exciting in football than OT. NFL OT is boring and the only reason why they dont go to the college one is time. TV times and game length is dictating the stay.

I do think sudden death is more exciting. NFL overtime is boring? Every Nfl playoff game ends in total excitement. College games often end in a dropped pass. I also think it is very lame that the trick shot magic competitions end in a missed shot most of the time as well. The winning team can't even really cheer when they've won.

That's all opinion so I'm not going to care too much about that. My point in my original post is that there is a ton of luck in one of the most popular sports and it has a ton riding on it with all the gambling yet it's okay to have a coin toss in NFL football that gives the lucky winner a HUGE advantage. Some luck is okay in spectator sports.
 

Nine Ball

Certified Rail Tester
Silver Member
frankncali said:
I liked the IPTs return to 8ball. Big breaks, run outs and breaking apart clusters, these are things that are easily understood by the players and FANS. Simonis cloth with decent size pocket and plenty of offense.


I agree... "10 ball is the game of the future".. To hell with 10 ball... 9 ball..


Let's get back to 8 ball........ I sure wish the IPT would of made it..
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Patrick Johnson said:
There are arguments on both sides. I like the "money ball last" compromise because it preserves most of the established character and pace of rotation pool.

pj
chgo
With a good rack, the ten or nine ball won't be sitting by the bottom corner every break waiting for a combo. Any ten ball tour should use the Rack-M-Rite racking template (American copied by EUROTOUR) for a perfect rack in 3 seconds.

Nine ball is not necessarily a better game with a perfect rack, but 10 ball is. Or 11 or 12 ball for that matter. If 10 ball is too "lucky", eleven or twelve ball with a perfect rack would be good on 4 and 1/2 inch buckets with new cloth. With twelve ball racked on the spot you would see from 2 to 4 balls regularly pocketed on the break (4 balls are "dead") with 5 not uncommon and occasional sixes. Eleven ball is harder because it is a more natural slug even with a good rack.
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
unknownpro said:
You are making my point for me. I would venture to guess that there are as many balls "bad lucked" in accidentally while playing safe as there are "good lucked" in while playing a normal shot to pocket a ball in pro events. The remainder would be on hopeless kicks. Eliminating the luck option on kicks rewards safety play over aggression. With current rules all good players know the only really good safety is the runout.


As a lifetime player of rotation games I disagree. I played and cashed in race to 15 call shot PCA tournaments. Call shot is restrictive. Whoever makes the balls should keep shooting. It's not the luck that will be missing with call shot, it's strategy. At least ninety-five percent of luck in rotation games is in position play.

Would you want straight pool be changed to allow slopped balls? Add call shot to ten ball including on the break? Play one-pocket using call shot/call safe? I don't think so. Why exempt the break, when that is where most balls are "lucked" in?

After reading this post, I completely agree with you position. As far as allowing slop in 14.1 - we have a thread over in our forum that is discussing this very issue - say you call the 4 ball in the corner, miss it, have it go 4 rails and drop in the same pocket that you called. Under the current rules, that counts - all you need to do is call the ball and the pocket.

I once had a conversation about this with Earl, and he contends that he hates the slop rules in 9 ball, however I remember his wacky kick-carom off the 4 ball in Memphis (PBT) several years ago when he was playing Mike Massey.

Most players love it when they slop in the balls, but when it happens for your opponent... well you can imagine how Earl's point of view changes drastically when you bring that up.

:p

Efren contends that his now famous Z-kick was a fluke shot - however - you'll never be able to convince anybody that it was luck - not skill, to include Earl.

I do agree that call shot would complicate issues severely if it was for all 10 balls. You'd need a referee at every table. I have had trouble keeping up with watching 2 tables when I have helped out with TK's Southeast Open 9 Ball Tour. That is just for the last couple of matches - I couldn't imagine having to do that for 64+ players on every table for every round, although I kinda would wish that kind of aggravation on Scott Smith.

Just kidding.
:D


Message to Mark Griffin - I don't have a copy of the PCA Rules - perhaps you could get with Jay - I'm sure he has a copy of them stashed in a box somewhere.
 

worriedbeef

The Voice of Reason
Silver Member
Nine Ball said:
I agree... "10 ball is the game of the future".. To hell with 10 ball... 9 ball..


Let's get back to 8 ball........ I sure wish the IPT would of made it..

for the people talking about eight ball... it's boring at the top level. i love pool so i can enjoy watching it but i would much rather see any other game.

the number one element to the game of eight ball on the slow cloth and IPT conditions was your patterns. in theory a slow cloth will sort the men from the boys if you like, the players with the better stroke will fare better. but the game of eight ball doesn't need much of a stroke. if you get a reasonably open rack and play the correct pattern most of the shots are stop shots and simple short positional shots.

9-ball has the bigger shots and it requires a bigger stroke sometimes because you need to come with bigger shots. 10 ball is just a natural extension of this, fixing the flaws of nine ball - (the rack). also the extra ball brings more safeties and strategy, and it enforces a big break to be successful most of the time.

it's definitely the way forward, i'm just not sure about calling every ball.
 

emf123

Up the Irons!!!
Silver Member
I vote for call the 10 only, and only if it's a non-obvious shot like a combo or carom. Some TV matches were call the 9, and someone (I think it was Efren) had an obvious shot on the 9, made it but didn't call it so it got spotted and ended up losing. From then on, everytime he got on the nine, the crowd would yell to call the pocket.

I'm not sure about Fred's version, it's kind of confusing. The appeal of 9-ball is that the rules are simple and luck is a bit of factor. If you use tight pockets and long enough races, it should even out.

Good luck in your endeavors!!!
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
emf123 said:
I vote for call the 10 only, and only if it's a non-obvious shot like a combo or carom. Some TV matches were call the 9, and someone (I think it was Efren) had an obvious shot on the 9, made it but didn't call it so it got spotted and ended up losing. From then on, everytime he got on the nine, the crowd would yell to call the pocket.

I'm not sure about Fred's version, it's kind of confusing. The appeal of 9-ball is that the rules are simple and luck is a bit of factor. If you use tight pockets and long enough races, it should even out.

Good luck in your endeavors!!!
That was against Mika in tv final match.
Efren was going to pocket the winning ball and the crowd was screaming.
I believe Mike Tipton was the td and was not amused.
Dumb rule. The 9 was a foot from the pocket.

I dunno why luck is such a bad part of the sport. Deal with it. It happens.
Tiger Woods could be driving on the 18th hole for half a million dollars. Sudden wind could make him lose the masters or US Open.
 

crosseyedjoe

Anywhere but here
Silver Member
Cuebacca said:
FYI, for the new BCA tour, Mark has said that when a ball is pocketed on a safety or slop, the incoming player has the option to choose who shoots next.

Hence his comment, mo-n-mo rulez. Mo rules-Mo ways to confuse. :D
 

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
crosseyedjoe said:
Hence his comment, mo-n-mo rulez. Mo rules-Mo ways to confuse. :D

I guess I missed his comment the first time around. :eek: A couple of people had brought up the safety issue, which is why I posted the rule.

Assuming that it's going to be call shot, that extra rule about safeties is a really good rule, in my opinion.

To be honest though, I'd prefer slop to count in 10-ball just as it currently does in 9-ball.

The only slop I'd like to remove is the money ball... on the break... when it's rack-your-own... which it should be... unless there's a neutral racker. :D

Calling only the 10-ball isn't a bad idea either, but IMHO, it shouldn't have to be verbally called, unless it's not an obvious shot.
 

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
Z

Blackjack said:
Efren contends that his now famous Z-kick was a fluke shot - however - you'll never be able to convince anybody that it was luck - not skill, to include Earl.

I think I know what Danny D would say about that... he played the shot well enough to get lucky. :D :)
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Cuebacca said:
The only slop I'd like to remove is the money ball... on the break... when it's rack-your-own... which it should be... unless there's a neutral racker. :D
The TAR matches have been playing the International 10-ball rules (Predator?) with rack your own, and the 10-ball on the break doesn't count as a win if it's made in the bottom two corners. I like that rule.

Calling only the 10-ball isn't a bad idea either, but IMHO, it shouldn't have to be verbally called, unless it's not an obvious shot.
Agreed.
 
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