Call shot 10-ball is a bad idea.

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd like to wish everyone good luck that is working on new pool tours or events. But call shot rotation games are a very bad idea.

The PCA used call shot. The rules became very convoluted as they attempted to preserve natural aspects of 9-ball at the same time. Playing two balls at once, or playing a difficult shot that might leave tough position if you miss, or in some situations waylaying a kick hoping to luck in a ball are natural and vital parts of rotation games as we know them and should not change, imo.

You cannot remove luck from rotation games by using call shot. All you can do is complicate the game unnecessarilly and remove exitement from the game.

Long races using tight pockets (near 4" for sides and corners) and worn cloth would increase the skill factor. Call shot, imo, will not.

If anybody has the old PCA rules could you please post them?

It is my opinion that maximizing the popularity of pool in general requires emphasis on the uniqueness of pool compared to other sports. That is why I believe certain aspects of pool games should not be changed. Winner breaks, win by one game (hill-hill) matches, and not calling shots are three of these aspects for rotation games that, imo, shouldn't be touched. Personally I'd add the double elimination format to that also for all pool tournaments.
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
unknownpro said:
I'd like to wish everyone good luck that is working on new pool tours or events. But call shot rotation games are a very bad idea.

The PCA used call shot. The rules became very convoluted as they attempted to preserve natural aspects of 9-ball at the same time. Playing two balls at once, or playing a difficult shot that might leave tough position if you miss, or in some situations waylaying a kick hoping to luck in a ball are natural and vital parts of rotation games as we know them and should not change, imo.

You cannot remove luck from rotation games by using call shot. All you can do is complicate the game unnecessarilly and remove exitement from the game.

Long races using tight pockets (near 4" for sides and corners) and worn cloth would increase the skill factor. Call shot, imo, will not.

If anybody has the old PCA rules could you please post them?

It is my opinion that maximizing the popularity of pool in general requires emphasis on the uniqueness of pool compared to other sports. That is why I believe certain aspects of pool games should not be changed. Winner breaks, win by one game (hill-hill) matches, and not calling shots are three of these aspects for rotation games that, imo, shouldn't be touched. Personally I'd add the double elimination format to that also for all pool tournaments.

While I agree with your view, there are parts that I don't agree with. Sit back and think about how often you actually "luck a ball in". Usually, at the pro level - it doesn't happen as much as you'd think - although it does happen and it cool to keep shooting. Occasionally we'll kick blindly at a ball and silly things happen. Yes, it helps you out when those balls drop - but when you think about it, very few of us are relying on that luck factor.

Call shot on the pro level is not restrictive, it is a necessity to raise the standard of play for the best players in the world.

Let's look at it from the chair. We both know what it's like to lose a close match because somebody $hit a ball in. That's the rolls, but if the rules are changed, it adds a new dynamic to the game - especially if the unintentionally pocketed balls are re-spotted like they were 20-25 years ago in 9 ball. That way, the ball that was $hit in comes back up and YOU come to the table. Any time you can get back to the table, that's a good thing. Right?

Luck has its place - it adds some excitement - but for the most part I don't think call shot would damage the game as much as you'd think it would. JMO.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So let me get this, can I pocket a ball, call another pocket and leave the ball stuck for the other guy?
If you want to eliminate the cheese on the 10-ball, just play it to the last ball. Make it 10-ball Last Ball.
I remember that PCA event. It was horrible.
 

soulcatcher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
So let me get this, can I pocket a ball, call another pocket and leave the ball stuck for the other guy?
If you want to eliminate the cheese on the 10-ball, just play it to the last ball. Make it 10-ball Last Ball.
I remember that PCA event. It was horrible.

This is my thought as well. I don't care if slop is allowed or not in any rotation game. Howewver, with the new call pocket rules, you can call safe and make your next ball, say the 3, while the 4 is blocked on a rail by 2 other balls, leaving no shot for your opponent. I do not believe there is any place for a "Safety" shot in rotation. If you play safe, you do it by sending your current ball to a place the opponent can not hit it, rather than pocketing your ball and leaving the next "unhittable" ball for your opponent. There is much more skill involved in playing safe on the 3 ball, rather than pocketing the 3 ball and calling safe.
 

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
ball pocketed in wrong pocket

FYI, for the new BCA tour, Mark has said that when a ball is pocketed on a safety or slop, the incoming player has the option to choose who shoots next.
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PCA rules

Someone mentioned the old PCA rules. If anyone has those, I would sure like to get a copy.

If there was a problem, I would like to be aware of it before we make some of the same mistakes.

BlackJack - ya got an old copy????

JoeyinCali-what were you referring to "it was horrible"

Thanks everyone for your comments.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PCA rules

Someone mentioned the old PCA rules. If anyone has those, I would sure like to get a copy.

If there was a problem, I would like to be aware of it before we make some of the same mistakes.

BlackJack - ya got an old copy????

JoeyinCali-what were you referring to "it was horrible"

Thanks everyone for your comments.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PCA rules

Someone mentioned the old PCA rules. If anyone has those, I would sure like to get a copy.

If there was a problem, I would like to be aware of it before we make some of the same mistakes.

BlackJack - ya got an old copy????

JoeyinCali-what were you referring to "it was horrible"

Thanks everyone for your comments.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665
 

frankncali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the players might like the call shot aspect but if the game is being designed to build interest in outside sources then Call Shot would only confuse things.

Think about a series of roll outs like the old days or multiple shot safety series. While we pool players might find them interesting (only on occassion) the average joe would have already lost interest.

I still don't understand the change to 10 ball. With every other Major sport in the world changing rules for more offense and for the fans how is 10 ball going to add anything.

I liked the IPTs return to 8ball. Big breaks, run outs and breaking apart clusters, these are things that are easily understood by the players and FANS. Simonis cloth with decent size pocket and plenty of offense.

Looking for a fan base .... I think there are probably 300k 8 ball league members around the nation. Nice place to start.

Pool (the games) will have to change to be a Sport at the Pro level. EVERY other sport I can think of has had to change and continually adapt.
 

enzo

Banned
i think in pool rules should keep to a minimum any communication you need to have with your opponent. im serious about this, all it does is cause problems and misunderstandings. the inform your opponent he's on two is a good rule i think, but jerks that you're beating up on take advantage of this stuff by acting like they dont hear you and all the other stuff ive come to expect.

seriously, no call pocket, its just a bad idea.... arguments will go up 100 times. for that reason alone its not worth it.

edit, i just had to add this..... many, many times a player will hit a shot very hard (say a long, difficult shot), miss it, then "luck" it in...... mike sigel is the best at this i think, and he's fooled people too, people think he's lucky. well, i believe that it you weigh things properly in your head, in many situations, hitting hard and missing the ball on accident but then lucking it in can be a great percentage play. "luck" isn't all it's cracked up to be, i suspect the very best players are "lucky" because they are more smart than they are lucky. in other words, we are put in situations on a pool table many times where luck will be one of our greatest allies, and the best percentage players will use this. why take this fascinating aspect out of the game.
 
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Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
10 ball

FrankinCali:

Those are some good arguments. But I do not see it getting to the 'roll out' stage. If it would, I would agree with you.

I would also think about a 30-35 second shot clock (World Pool Masters and Predator 10 ball) with one extension per game.

I agree the game needs to move a good pace.

One thing to remember - my PLAN is a work in progress. But I never stated it would be ONLY 10 ball. Remember, I still have to find a continuing venue for the US Open One Pocket event. I have held that the last 3-4 times. Also other events/games.

All I can say is to keep the discussion going. As we form our concept everyone will know what the deal is.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com

Still looking for all the contact info on top 500-1000 players (men & women)
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mark Griffin said:
Someone mentioned the old PCA rules. If anyone has those, I would sure like to get a copy.

If there was a problem, I would like to be aware of it before we make some of the same mistakes.

BlackJack - ya got an old copy????

JoeyinCali-what were you referring to "it was horrible"

Thanks everyone for your comments.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
702-719-7665
They had to call the 9-ball.
They would call it everytime the 9 was close to the pocket in case it was slopped in.
 

jamesroberts

"Unheralded Amateur"
Silver Member
unknownpro said:
I'd like to wish everyone good luck that is working on new pool tours or events. But call shot rotation games are a very bad idea.

The PCA used call shot. The rules became very convoluted as they attempted to preserve natural aspects of 9-ball at the same time. Playing two balls at once, or playing a difficult shot that might leave tough position if you miss, or in some situations waylaying a kick hoping to luck in a ball are natural and vital parts of rotation games as we know them and should not change, imo.

You cannot remove luck from rotation games by using call shot. All you can do is complicate the game unnecessarilly and remove exitement from the game.

Long races using tight pockets (near 4" for sides and corners) and worn cloth would increase the skill factor. Call shot, imo, will not.

If anybody has the old PCA rules could you please post them?

It is my opinion that maximizing the popularity of pool in general requires emphasis on the uniqueness of pool compared to other sports. That is why I believe certain aspects of pool games should not be changed. Winner breaks, win by one game (hill-hill) matches, and not calling shots are three of these aspects for rotation games that, imo, shouldn't be touched. Personally I'd add the double elimination format to that also for all pool tournaments.

As someone that plays in a lot of 10 ball tournaments I like the format of 10 ball over 9 ball, however I think call shot is a bad idea. The typical race to 7 or 8 between pros takes over an hour and sometimes 2 to complete a match. I'm afraid that a call shot match might take much longer as people could use this rule to tie up balls and prolong matches.

I would like to see a race to 11 10 ball, i think most everyone agrees the longer the race the better player that day is goin to win, and luck is part of it, but someone is not goin to luck a win over a top player in a race 11
 

GWAPO

Member
9ball and 10ball should certainly be call shot,at top level its amazing how many times your opponant flukes a ball off a kick shot..at pro level you can lose a match through that one slice of bad fortune..
so the best thing to do is make it call shot.if a player calls a safe on the 1 ball,and place safe off two rails and knocks the 4ball into a pocket.the incoming player should get the option to play or pass it back(play or pass) like the push out where you can play the shot or put your oponant back in...
i played engert in semi final of eurotour at weekend and was never in the match..managed to pull it back to 6-3 from 5-0 down and 6-1 down...
then at 6-3 i played good safty off break.he kicked at it fluked the 4ball and cleared up.then he broke and ran next rack so i was 8-3 down...
if it was call shot it would of been 6-4 with me back in the match and the pressure on him..the rules are too easy at top level..they need to be changed worldwide kb
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
call shot 10 ball

One of the main reasons for considering call shot in 10 ball is to play the same rules as the WPA. We will be going for recognition from the WPA - and I think they might want us to play by their rules.

Just a thought to remember.

Also remember that the WPA just (Nov 2007) recognized 10 ball as a discipline. It is not the same as 9-ball with another ball (according to the WPA).

That is why I like to have these discussions.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com
 

stuckart

Paint Dry Watching Champ
Silver Member
I love the move to 10-ball and only because of the Break. The extra ball during play isn't any different for players at this level. It's just changing the break which is good for all.

I don't think having to Call all shots is the best idea. It definitely slows the game down. I am however in favor of Calling the 10 ball. I think you need to give players that can get out of safeties with a 2+ rail kick the reward if they pocket something, just not the 10 ball.

I've tried running some Call 9 ball tourneys in the past where you had to call all balls. It worked alright for the lower level players, but definitely slowed the game down. But for higher rated players I'd just make it call the money ball. No real benefit!
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
stuckart said:
I love the move to 10-ball and only because of the Break. The extra ball during play isn't any different for players at this level. It's just changing the break which is good for all.

I don't think having to Call all shots is the best idea. It definitely slows the game down. I am however in favor of Calling the 10 ball. I
I like the idea of calling the 10-ball only, but I'd like to make sure that it's clear what to do during that called shot and all the rules that imply. I've seen it boffed up in my opinion when they haphazardly used "call the 9-ball" on TV.

In my not so humble opinion, if a player is calling the 10-ball (in Call 10-ball only), then that shot comes under call shot rules. as defined in the general rules. The player either wins with a legal shot pocketing the 10-ball or his inning is over. If it's call shot on the 10-ball, then he shouldn't be allowed to continue if he $hits in another ball but fails to pocket the 10-ball.

That's my only thought on it, other than changing 10-ball to a call shot causes more problems than it solves, IMNSHO.

Fred
 

SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Go for it Mark !

Mark Griffin said:
FrankinCali:

Those are some good arguments. But I do not see it getting to the 'roll out' stage. If it would, I would agree with you.

I would also think about a 30-35 second shot clock (World Pool Masters and Predator 10 ball) with one extension per game.

I agree the game needs to move a good pace.

One thing to remember - my PLAN is a work in progress. But I never stated it would be ONLY 10 ball. Remember, I still have to find a continuing venue for the US Open One Pocket event. I have held that the last 3-4 times. Also other events/games.

All I can say is to keep the discussion going. As we form our concept everyone will know what the deal is.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com

Still looking for all the contact info on top 500-1000 players (men & women)

Mark, not trying to blow smoke, but I think with your knowledge of the game, and your track record, you will make the right call on any rule decision. Just the fact that you are searching for input, speaks volumes to me. I have every confidence you will promote our sport in the best way possible. Rules can always be be changed if they don't work out.

Good Luck

Dick
 

frankncali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mark Griffin said:
FrankinCali:

Those are some good arguments. But I do not see it getting to the 'roll out' stage. If it would, I would agree with you.

I would also think about a 30-35 second shot clock (World Pool Masters and Predator 10 ball) with one extension per game.

I agree the game needs to move a good pace.

One thing to remember - my PLAN is a work in progress. But I never stated it would be ONLY 10 ball. Remember, I still have to find a continuing venue for the US Open One Pocket event. I have held that the last 3-4 times. Also other events/games.

All I can say is to keep the discussion going. As we form our concept everyone will know what the deal is.

mark Griffin
markg@playbca.com

Still looking for all the contact info on top 500-1000 players (men & women)

Thanks for understanding that players and people here on AZ are just voicing opinions. No matter what I think you are a good man for this venture and I will support it.

I can't remember if you were there or not but I went to a tourney in Vegas once that was ball in hand if you missed. It was different and very
entertaining. I saw more creativity and amazing shots that I could keep track of.

Good Luck and as for venues... if your looking out here in SoCal don't forget about the new San Manuel Casino. They have a very nice new place with an awesome 45,000 square foot room for events. They are working on putting together bigger shows and doing more than
some other casinos here. Might be a good fit.

Frank
 
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