Most 14.1 players dont like diamond tables for that very reason. Yep, a diamond will turn a 100+ ball runner thats use to a GC into a 50 to 60 ball runner unless they do as you suggest.
Most give up and just complain instead of adapting.
Can Practicing Exclusively on Tight Pocket Tables be a Detriment to Your Game?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
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Most 14.1 players dont like diamond tables for that very reason. Yep, a diamond will turn a 100+ ball runner thats use to a GC into a 50 to 60 ball runner unless they do as you suggest.
Most give up and just complain instead of adapting.
Here are photos of the corner pockets on the front row tables at Blue Fin Billiards where I play.
All I know is I can and do run racks on these table whereas some other players will struggle.
But the folks I play pool with also can run racks on these tables. This just requires a strong player.
I'm not trying to boast about being a great player. Quite the opposite because at my age, I play
entirely for the moment.....right now....And some days I play fierce and other times kinda charitable.
Tighter pockets really distinguish a player's skiill level. It is a challenge for less skilled pool players,
especially league players (7' tables) where the pockets are oversized. That's why I never play on 7'.
My preference is to play on 9' tables with tight pockets & the more people complain about the table's
tough pockets, the more I actually relish & genunely enjoy playing on that table. I like the challenge.
Maybe like golf courses that have slope ratings to correlate the course difficulty, so should pool tables.
Anyway, pool should be played for personal enjoyment and so I say to each their own.....Obladi Oblada.
All I know is I can and do run racks on these table whereas some other players will struggle.
But the folks I play pool with also can run racks on these tables. This just requires a strong player.
I'm not trying to boast about being a great player. Quite the opposite because at my age, I play
entirely for the moment.....right now....And some days I play fierce and other times kinda charitable.
Tighter pockets really distinguish a player's skiill level. It is a challenge for less skilled pool players,
especially league players (7' tables) where the pockets are oversized. That's why I never play on 7'.
My preference is to play on 9' tables with tight pockets & the more people complain about the table's
tough pockets, the more I actually relish & genunely enjoy playing on that table. I like the challenge.
Maybe like golf courses that have slope ratings to correlate the course difficulty, so should pool tables.
Anyway, pool should be played for personal enjoyment and so I say to each their own.....Obladi Oblada.
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When Lassiter and I used to practice at St. Elmo's in Norfolk we would play on the table he always practiced on. 5" corners and 5.5" side pockets. We could both run lots of 9 ball racks for 2$ a game.
He was the best tight pocket player I ever saw.
His Secret? Move closer to center ball.
It has always worked for me.
Bill Stroud
He was the best tight pocket player I ever saw.
His Secret? Move closer to center ball.
It has always worked for me.
Bill Stroud
Yep, center ball works wonders for people that stay in line.
What about players like me that get out of line by the third shot? I have to spin the cb often to get back in line. Then, two balls later, I'm out of line again.....thats about where my run ends.
Center ball, like center table, is a very safe place to be but, seems so hard to get there for some of us (me).
Center ball
I thought Billy played center ball almost exclusively
Eddie Kelly told me to cinch balls or shoot the moneyball
center ball was the best
Eddie was probably the best player of my time before the era of Efren,
Alex,Robo,Bustamonte and the Asians
If center ball gets the cue ball in trouble,just think how
much trouble you could get in with side
I thought Billy played center ball almost exclusively
Eddie Kelly told me to cinch balls or shoot the moneyball
center ball was the best
Eddie was probably the best player of my time before the era of Efren,
Alex,Robo,Bustamonte and the Asians
If center ball gets the cue ball in trouble,just think how
much trouble you could get in with side
Ive witnessed Dennis O. run several racks of 10 ball on equipment every bit as tight as that but, you/me/nobody else on this forum could get there even if we were in our highest gear, not even close.
So, yeah, your correct for "us" it wouldn't be pool but, for the select few, they could get there and to "them", it's just another day at the office.
There are many reasons why they are the elite and being able to play on brutal equipment and making it look good is just "one" of those reasons.
Jeff
I’ve played the 3 toughest golf courses in my life over a 3 day weekend 20 years ago.
All of them are on the Monterey Peninsula: Pebble Beach, Spyglass and Spanish Bay.
My NCGA index at that time was a 14 and I did not even come close to playing to my handicap.
Despite that the courses literally crushed us I still had 8 birdies & a bunch of pars but lots of snowmen.
I found it exhilarating to play courses that humbled me with the difficulty of the course layout. And we
all played from the back tees too. Now we could have gone to Carmel Valley or some other easier
golf courses and enjoyed lower scores and undoubtedly a great time as well. Nope, our group wanted
the toughest courses so we could see how our games stood up to the test. OMG, there were so many
3 putt greens that weekend. Putting seemed like it was being done on an ice rink the greens were so fast.
The bigger the challenge, the greater the satisfaction derived becomes when you beat a tough pool table
or even just some holes on a few very tough golf courses. And know what. When we returned home, all
of use played much better golf, for awhile until the old habits returned, IMO, it also applies to pool. After
regularly playing on pool tables with stingy pockets, other tables appear a lot more generous in comparison.
All of them are on the Monterey Peninsula: Pebble Beach, Spyglass and Spanish Bay.
My NCGA index at that time was a 14 and I did not even come close to playing to my handicap.
Despite that the courses literally crushed us I still had 8 birdies & a bunch of pars but lots of snowmen.
I found it exhilarating to play courses that humbled me with the difficulty of the course layout. And we
all played from the back tees too. Now we could have gone to Carmel Valley or some other easier
golf courses and enjoyed lower scores and undoubtedly a great time as well. Nope, our group wanted
the toughest courses so we could see how our games stood up to the test. OMG, there were so many
3 putt greens that weekend. Putting seemed like it was being done on an ice rink the greens were so fast.
The bigger the challenge, the greater the satisfaction derived becomes when you beat a tough pool table
or even just some holes on a few very tough golf courses. And know what. When we returned home, all
of use played much better golf, for awhile until the old habits returned, IMO, it also applies to pool. After
regularly playing on pool tables with stingy pockets, other tables appear a lot more generous in comparison.
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Good post.....
Ive had similar experiences in pool at events that draw a lot of pros such as the DCC, Rock City Open etc...etc by approaching certain pros that are in between matching, done for the day or are out of the tournament (my favorite) and asking if they would be interested in playing head up 9 ball, 10 ball or str8's for enough to make most of them say yes.
Most of the pro pool players today will "jump" at the chance to play sets of 10 ball, race to ~9 for ~$200 a set and with no weight being given and we cant blame them because, to them, it's easy and fast money. Well, most of the time. They almost always win but, ever now and then I play over my head and make one of them work harder than they expected to and I actually get better by learning from them at times.
To me, playing a legit pro head up for just enough $$$ to keep it a little tense is very similar to doing as you described.
We know going into it, that we are about to enter the valley of death but, we step up and step out to see if all the drills, ghost play and lessons have actually paid off and how much, or not. Either way, we have a REALITY CHECK.
Some of us call it "trial by fire" and it can be rough going into those sets but, I ALWAYS feel better after its over with.
It sure as hell beats sitting around jawing with the NITS that are waiting on something soft.
Jeff
Where I play has both tight and not so tight pockets. Going from the looser pockets to the tight drove me nuts.
Then I realized the importance of having a specific spot to put the OB and if the OB did not go to the specific spot in the pocket, it was a miss even tho it went in the pocket.
This striving for always putting the OB in a specific spot helped me to increase my consistency on the tight pockets.
Tight pockets don’t really hurt your game. It is the player not being able to put the OB in a specific spot in the pocket that is hurting their game.
High level of consistency requires being very specific in ball placement.
Then I realized the importance of having a specific spot to put the OB and if the OB did not go to the specific spot in the pocket, it was a miss even tho it went in the pocket.
This striving for always putting the OB in a specific spot helped me to increase my consistency on the tight pockets.
Tight pockets don’t really hurt your game. It is the player not being able to put the OB in a specific spot in the pocket that is hurting their game.
High level of consistency requires being very specific in ball placement.
Ok, here is my experience: Very tight tables take away my confidence and end up altering my stroke. For me, the game is all about confidence. When I'm confident and stroking well, tight pockets don't bother me. So to answer you question, I prefer to practice on bigger pockets to get my confidence and stroke going.
RIght on. Played in a league on tough Diamond 9 footers many years ago. I played a TON of safties and the league had some top shooters. They went for the run out most of the time. They just didn't slow down their game to the table.
But, it also was not the most fun league I ever played in either. I didn't break and run ONE time the entire session and still won MVP ? WTF ?
Funny......cause it only ruins the game for those that can’t place the OB where it needs to be.
Safeties are part of the game. I always enjoy a good safety battle. It really tests the accuracy of your ball placement and how well you can reply to a safety.
To have a highly effective safety game takes just as much skill and practice as putting OBs in the pocket.
I practice 1 and 2 rails kicks and is why I win the majority safety battles. Nothing like frustrating your opponent by matching safety for safety.
Kinda like one pocket.
Safeties are part of the game. I always enjoy a good safety battle. It really tests the accuracy of your ball placement and how well you can reply to a safety.
To have a highly effective safety game takes just as much skill and practice as putting OBs in the pocket.
I practice 1 and 2 rails kicks and is why I win the majority safety battles. Nothing like frustrating your opponent by matching safety for safety.
Kinda like one pocket.
I'm sure everyone at one point when driving their vehicle in a construction zone has said to themselves, there's no way my car is going to fit through there. Whether you like it or not, your forced to go. When your in that lane, you notice how much room you actually have and your perception is now different.
If you can't shoot balls in the heart of the pocket, staying in your lane, shoot on loose pockets. Simple as that. lol
If you can't shoot balls in the heart of the pocket, staying in your lane, shoot on loose pockets. Simple as that. lol
angles and distance
Playing angles is obvious, study the angles when planning the runout. Once angles start working the game becomes much much easier. The thing it took me a long time to learn was distance. In my early days of playing shape the last thing I looked at before the shot was the next ball I planned to shoot. As often as not I ran into it or jammed myself up with no room to shoot. Another issue, the angle had to be perfect when I was six inches or less from the object ball.
Then I learned that my ideal distance was sixteen to twenty-four inches from the object ball and twelve to thirty inches was OK. I also learned to look at the spot I wanted the cue ball to stop for the next shot instead of the next ball. These simple things I learned about the same time paired to be a big evolutionary step in my game.
When I got distance and angles working I rarely strayed more than slightly off of centerline. When I did plan to load up with sidespin I tried to be sure the cue ball was on the short end of my range and that pocketing the ball was easy. Needing a lot of sidespin and a tough ball to pocket was often the shot that ended a run of mine if it didn't end in a safety that I had planned at the beginning of the inning. I made my share of these shots but they were a lot more missable than the short shots with little sidespin that I shot most of the time. More than one sweet young thing came up to me with tears in her eyes after her man lost, "It wasn't fair, you got all of the easy shots!" "Yes ma'am, some nights are like that."
Hu
Playing angles is obvious, study the angles when planning the runout. Once angles start working the game becomes much much easier. The thing it took me a long time to learn was distance. In my early days of playing shape the last thing I looked at before the shot was the next ball I planned to shoot. As often as not I ran into it or jammed myself up with no room to shoot. Another issue, the angle had to be perfect when I was six inches or less from the object ball.
Then I learned that my ideal distance was sixteen to twenty-four inches from the object ball and twelve to thirty inches was OK. I also learned to look at the spot I wanted the cue ball to stop for the next shot instead of the next ball. These simple things I learned about the same time paired to be a big evolutionary step in my game.
When I got distance and angles working I rarely strayed more than slightly off of centerline. When I did plan to load up with sidespin I tried to be sure the cue ball was on the short end of my range and that pocketing the ball was easy. Needing a lot of sidespin and a tough ball to pocket was often the shot that ended a run of mine if it didn't end in a safety that I had planned at the beginning of the inning. I made my share of these shots but they were a lot more missable than the short shots with little sidespin that I shot most of the time. More than one sweet young thing came up to me with tears in her eyes after her man lost, "It wasn't fair, you got all of the easy shots!" "Yes ma'am, some nights are like that."
Hu
Many players make the mistake when they are a little out of line of trying to get back in line by getting too perfect. They often forget that the angle on the next ball is the most important thing, not the distance to the next object ball.
Using center ball you sometimes need to go to an additional rail but you gain in shot accuracy. It takes some practice to get the hang of it.
Even I, who consider himself a center ball player gets lazy sometimes and uses Side when it isn't really necessary.
Just remember the two uses of Side:
To get position when you can not possibly get there with Center ball.
To make a ball that is not ON any other way.
It is best to avoid it as much as possible especially on tight tables.
Bill S.
IMO.....Play On Tables That Challenge Your Abilities.
In golf, there are different tee boxes that change the hole and make it easier or harder.
It is the same green you eventually get to putt on but the hole difficulty changes with the tees.
Ever play from the Championship tees? It is so much harder and unless you have the game,
it’s really not fun to play when others in your group smashing it. Pool is no different. There are
players of different skill levels and even some handicapping systems too. But the table does not
change unlike tee boxes on a golf course. The table is what it is, nothing more, i.e., pocket size.
My experience has been that the best golfers want to play on the best maintained & hardest courses.
Heading out to the local municipal course was convenient but on the weekends, it was different. Our
group would spend the $90 to $100 to play the harder courses. And when we returned to playing the
local muny courses, it was so much easier. The challenge of difficulty can be a motivational. weapon.
The harder the golf course, the harder I tried and the better I became because of it. My index went from
22 down to a low of 12 but not playing enough kept from from going lower or even keeping it. I bounced
between 11- 15 but my handicap was at its lowest when we were playing the better courses more often.
I just tried harder, practiced with more purpose and played the course better with each revisit.
Personally, pool table pockets are just too big on most tables. The OB is 2.25” wide and a CP width of
3.75” allows 3/4” allowance, i.e. space, on either side of the ball. That is admittedly tight but nonetheless
more than playable. So a 4” CP is more than adequate and a 4.5” is twice as wide as the OB...2x as wide.
When CP pockets are larger than 4.5”, the game becomes more enjoyable for recreational players but for
serious minded players, it just gets way too forgiving. So maybe the best thing is for a pool hall to have a
combination of different table pockets. As an example, Blue Fin Billiards has arranged It that way. The front
tables are the hardest with the tightest pockets. The stronger players can be found on the front tables and
smaller pockets make the game more fair and interesting when you have to give up weight to your opponent.
And as far as changing one’s stroke when the pockets are tight, maybe for the timid players that’s so.
I expect to make the shot every time. I don’t slow stroke the shot as some might do out of intimidation.
My stroke does not change because of tight pockets. A good stroke hit accurately should pocket the OB.
Guess what? The table gets easier as the pockets get bigger. That’s just what my experience has taught me.
But I’ll concede when Bill Stroud offers his remarks, you should consider his words wisely since he’s an expert.
In golf, there are different tee boxes that change the hole and make it easier or harder.
It is the same green you eventually get to putt on but the hole difficulty changes with the tees.
Ever play from the Championship tees? It is so much harder and unless you have the game,
it’s really not fun to play when others in your group smashing it. Pool is no different. There are
players of different skill levels and even some handicapping systems too. But the table does not
change unlike tee boxes on a golf course. The table is what it is, nothing more, i.e., pocket size.
My experience has been that the best golfers want to play on the best maintained & hardest courses.
Heading out to the local municipal course was convenient but on the weekends, it was different. Our
group would spend the $90 to $100 to play the harder courses. And when we returned to playing the
local muny courses, it was so much easier. The challenge of difficulty can be a motivational. weapon.
The harder the golf course, the harder I tried and the better I became because of it. My index went from
22 down to a low of 12 but not playing enough kept from from going lower or even keeping it. I bounced
between 11- 15 but my handicap was at its lowest when we were playing the better courses more often.
I just tried harder, practiced with more purpose and played the course better with each revisit.
Personally, pool table pockets are just too big on most tables. The OB is 2.25” wide and a CP width of
3.75” allows 3/4” allowance, i.e. space, on either side of the ball. That is admittedly tight but nonetheless
more than playable. So a 4” CP is more than adequate and a 4.5” is twice as wide as the OB...2x as wide.
When CP pockets are larger than 4.5”, the game becomes more enjoyable for recreational players but for
serious minded players, it just gets way too forgiving. So maybe the best thing is for a pool hall to have a
combination of different table pockets. As an example, Blue Fin Billiards has arranged It that way. The front
tables are the hardest with the tightest pockets. The stronger players can be found on the front tables and
smaller pockets make the game more fair and interesting when you have to give up weight to your opponent.
And as far as changing one’s stroke when the pockets are tight, maybe for the timid players that’s so.
I expect to make the shot every time. I don’t slow stroke the shot as some might do out of intimidation.
My stroke does not change because of tight pockets. A good stroke hit accurately should pocket the OB.
Guess what? The table gets easier as the pockets get bigger. That’s just what my experience has taught me.
But I’ll concede when Bill Stroud offers his remarks, you should consider his words wisely since he’s an expert.
I have little problem with confidence. I've had my home table for 20 years (Gold Crown III). It was setup by Tony Morris with triple shimmed pockets and Granito 2000 cloth. Before that I played around my area (Chicago) and was pretty sporty I think. Since then, becoming a basement hermit of sorts, playing on my table has made playing elsewhere more relaxing and made myself MORE confident. I've been able to free flow, feeling the shot will be on line to center pocket more consistently. And it has.
Though I've aged and dont have the stamina I used to, my accuracy is the best it's ever been. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't have this table 10 years earlier because the game may have sucked me in more deep than I knew should be avoided. I sure do like to play though...:smile:
ALL of that said, I think Luther (and many others) could have practiced on tables with pockets the size of buckets and that wouldnt have affected his/their game elsewhere..
First of all, defining tight pockets is subjective itself, I believe that guys like me who learned to play in the 1960s now consider 41/2 inch pockets as "tight' pockets- almost all pool rooms back in the 60s had standard 4 3/4 to 5 inch corner pockets. Today it seems like 4 1/2 is standard with the Diamond tables prevailing, and 4 1/4 are now considered "tight' pockets.
I believe that the learning phase of this game is best done on larger pockets to learn how to pocket balls consistently at all speeds and to "loosen" one's stroke to its maximum efficiency. Some great players have agreed with this theory going back 30/40 years.
I also believe that a modern day player needs to spend at least half of their practice time on 41/2 inch pockets or slightly less in order to fine tune that stroke and aim required to consistently pocket balls and moving the cue ball to the desired position with a fluid stroke on tighter pockets . Given two tables with reasonably fast cloth and rails - the 41/2 inch pocket table requires some fine adjustments to your game above the 4 3/4 to 5 inch pocket table AND; one would NOT want to be THINKING about those adjustments in ANY match of consequence or importance.
I personally think that 14.1 games are much more enjoyable and actually SHOULD be played on minimum 4 3/4 pockets due to the frequent SPOT position requirements and power break shots that can come up with some frequency - really hard for MOST amateur players to run more than 25 balls consistently on 4 1/2 inch pockets or less. The constant need to pocket balls AND break out clusters takes its toll with smaller pockets for the amateur player more often than one would desire to make the game fun. Other games such as 8/9/10 ball can more easily be adapted to tighter pocket play.
I believe that the learning phase of this game is best done on larger pockets to learn how to pocket balls consistently at all speeds and to "loosen" one's stroke to its maximum efficiency. Some great players have agreed with this theory going back 30/40 years.
I also believe that a modern day player needs to spend at least half of their practice time on 41/2 inch pockets or slightly less in order to fine tune that stroke and aim required to consistently pocket balls and moving the cue ball to the desired position with a fluid stroke on tighter pockets . Given two tables with reasonably fast cloth and rails - the 41/2 inch pocket table requires some fine adjustments to your game above the 4 3/4 to 5 inch pocket table AND; one would NOT want to be THINKING about those adjustments in ANY match of consequence or importance.
I personally think that 14.1 games are much more enjoyable and actually SHOULD be played on minimum 4 3/4 pockets due to the frequent SPOT position requirements and power break shots that can come up with some frequency - really hard for MOST amateur players to run more than 25 balls consistently on 4 1/2 inch pockets or less. The constant need to pocket balls AND break out clusters takes its toll with smaller pockets for the amateur player more often than one would desire to make the game fun. Other games such as 8/9/10 ball can more easily be adapted to tighter pocket play.
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I got my first US pool table put in my apartment about a month ago. Well, Korean made US pool table. Since then, I’ve only played away from home when there has been a tournament on.
When I played a lot of snooker, I was really critical of playing conditions. I hated anywhere that had old cloth, dead rails, or balls in poor condition. It didn’t have to be tournament ready, but I didn’t want kicks every second shot or feel like I should have brought a baseball bat instead of a cue.
When I moved country and started playing pool, that attitude disappeared. I guess I just adjusted to the conditions of the first club I found, and anything better was a bonus. Potting was also so easy, and the table so small, adding the fact that pool cloths have no nap, playing on old cloth didn’t really bother me too much.
I went to a monthly tournament the other night and the mood I found myself instantly reminded me of my primadona snooker days. Every table played a different speed. The balls made that dull unpolished cheap sound. The cloths were either dead or out of control with zero grip. It put me in such a foul mood and the games were completely unenjoyable. I just wanted to go home and play on my own table. I wasn’t playing to enjoy the beauty of the game. I was just playing to win (of course I like winning, but I hate feeling like I’m scraping the win while sacrificing the beauty).
Th only upside was that I was occasionally surprised by a ball dropping that I thought I’d missed.
I really like going to a tournament once or twice a month because it’s one of the few social outings I have, but I don’t have time to practice away from home. I love having the table at home, but I hate having the feeling that makes me want to scream out, “These tables are f%^&ing garbage!!”
A long winded way of saying I agree with you. There are some negatives to practicing exclusively at home.