Can't do a draw shot to save my life

PaulHarvey said:
Wow, that guy really did stroke down! I thought the stroke was supposed to be level? ...
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There is a whole separate universe of fancy shots. Those are shots that no average player would ever use in a game. It is possible to freeze the cue ball to the end rail and draw it back from a ball at the other end of the table. That shot and the associated technique are not useful to you at the present level of your fundamentals. Neither is the demo in the video posted.

To get draw, you need to hit the cue ball low. To get a lot of draw, you need to hit the cue ball hard.

You will also need to chalk. It could be that chalk is your whole problem, but that's hard to diagnose over the interwebz. Do you look at your tip each time you plan to put spin on the cue ball?

You don't have to be level, although it may help. You don't have to come straight through, although it may help. You don't have to hit the cue ball at peak stick speed, although it may help. You don't have to avoid dropping your elbow before contact, although it is almost certain to help. You don't have to follow through the cue ball, although it may help. You must hit the cue ball low and you must hit it hard if you want lots of draw. I can draw the ball violating all of the "may help" suggestions if I'm forced to, but I find it a lot easier and consistent to follow them. I can't draw the cue ball without hitting it low and neither can anyone else. I can't get a lot of draw without hitting the cue ball hard, and neither can anyone else.

"Hard" is a relative term. You can see how hard you are hitting the ball by shooting the object ball straight up and down the table -- not into a pocket. To draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you will probably drive the object ball two table lengths when you use your very best soft draw. To draw the cue ball a table length, you will probably drive the object ball three or more table lengths.
 
Bob Jewett said:
There is a whole separate universe of fancy shots. Those are shots that no average player would ever use in a game. It is possible to freeze the cue ball to the end rail and draw it back from a ball at the other end of the table. That shot and the associated technique are not useful to you at the present level of your fundamentals. Neither is the demo in the video posted.

To get draw, you need to hit the cue ball low. To get a lot of draw, you need to hit the cue ball hard.

You will also need to chalk. It could be that chalk is your whole problem, but that's hard to diagnose over the interwebz. Do you look at your tip each time you plan to put spin on the cue ball?

You don't have to be level, although it may help. You don't have to come straight through, although it may help. You don't have to hit the cue ball at peak stick speed, although it may help. You don't have to avoid dropping your elbow before contact, although it is almost certain to help. You don't have to follow through the cue ball, although it may help. You must hit the cue ball low and you must hit it hard if you want lots of draw. I can draw the ball violating all of the "may help" suggestions if I'm forced to, but I find it a lot easier and consistent to follow them. I can't draw the cue ball without hitting it low and neither can anyone else. I can't get a lot of draw without hitting the cue ball hard, and neither can anyone else.

"Hard" is a relative term. You can see how hard you are hitting the ball by shooting the object ball straight up and down the table -- not into a pocket. To draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you will probably drive the object ball two table lengths when you use your very best soft draw. To draw the cue ball a table length, you will probably drive the object ball three or more table lengths.
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Thank you for the post sir. I get tired of people giving the same old cliche advice, especially around the pool hall, on how to get more draw etc. Most of the things they say aren't necessary.

As you said, while those things may help with consistency etc., the bottom line is hit low and use decent speed, the lower you hit and the faster you come through the ball at impact the more draw you will get, period. Other than those few specialty shots, which rarely come up, that's all you need.

Scott
 
PaulHarvey said:
A bunch of new things to try; thanks!

Some suggested I try to upload the vid to YouTube, so I did.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ppKhgJjjBQ

This video was taken the first day after the first batch of responses to my OP.

Thanks again,
Harvey
Click to expand...


OK Harvey. Got it. You're not hitting the cue ball as low as you think you are. That's partly because you're doing that loop-dee-loop thing that I was afraid you might be doing. You start out with a level stroke and then you dip down to apply backspin. But that dipping thing you do looks to be happening after your stick hits the cue ball, which doesn't do you much good.

Aim lower. Hit lower. Even let yourself miscue a couple of times just to make sure you're lower on the ball. Hey, it's just practice, and try not to loop your stroke into the ball. Try to stroke on the same plane, which should be slightly angled towards the cue ball.
 
sorry so long. The drill I'm including helps get the feel you'll need

Thanks for posting your video...not an instructor here but you are hitting the ball
WAAAAAY too fast/hard to get an initial feel for drawing the ball.

1st... from what I'm seeing the strip ball your using as a cue ball do you're not
stroking through the ball below center or you'd get some back spin even if the
speed kills the draw. I think if you shot a bit slower on a closer shot you'd see
some reaction if you are actually getting the tip through the cue ball lower then
center ball. That would be a good place to start evaluating your stroke.

2nd...what helped me to get a real feel for draw was two things...first ball speed
needed for draw is proportional to the distance between the cue ball and the object ball. So the more distance the quicker your stroke had to be to get the ball
to draw from distance. The second thing is that the harder the balls contact each
other the less the resultant spin will be.


Drill to get this going....
I think you need to start with one striped ball with the stripe horizontal (no object
ball) and shoot it across the table the long way toward the rail hitting it below
center. You should see the ball drag a bit on the way to the rail and spin
backwards for at least a short while before it spins forward again before it
contacts the rail.

You should try hitting it fairly slow making sure you let the cue go through the ball.
Then Increase your cue speed slightly and try again. You'll notice that the
stripped ball will spin faster and faster backward as well as for a longer distance
across the table before taking to a forward spin. The whole time you are doing
this maintain a light grip on your cue so the cue will stroke through the ball. It's
easy to pull the cue up to center ball accidentally and lose the angle through the
ball with a tight grip or grab on the cue at the end of your stroke.


Good luck and good shooting to you!

Kevin
 
PaulHarvey said:
... Some suggested I try to upload the vid to YouTube, so I did.

Here's the link: ...
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You never looked at your tip to see if the chalking worked. Most players who never look at their tip don't chalk very well. You need to get a thin, even coat of chalk on the tip and especially on the edges. How are your edges?

It looks like you aren't lining up low on the cue ball.

Here is a related drill that may help. Do it with a stripe as your cue ball -- just as in your video -- and no object ball. Shoot the "cue" ball straight up the table to the middle of the far end rail. Notice how long you keep backspin on the cue ball. You should be able to see where it "turns over" which is the point at which it is sliding with neither draw nor follow. Practice this until you can keep backspin on the cue ball clear to the far cushion. Continue until you can do that without shooting real hard.
 
pooln8r said:
... 2nd... The second thing is that the harder the balls contact each other the less the resultant spin will be. ...
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I don't understand this point. The amount of spin the cue ball has at contact will in general increase with shot speed. You seem to be saying the opposite.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I don't understand this point. The amount of spin the cue ball has at contact will in general increase with shot speed. You seem to be saying the opposite.
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Hi Mr. Jewett...I meant the contact between the spinning cue ball and an object ball.
I've observed that you can lose quite a bit of the spin you intended to get by hitting the
same shot harder than necessary. I was only pointing this out because it's amazing
how much more spin you tend to see the pros get while using a smooth even and
quite a bit slower stroke then the average amateur uses to try to achieve the same
goal.


Kevin
 
pooln8r said:
Hi Mr. Jewett...I meant the contact between the spinning cue ball and an object ball.
I've observed that you can lose quite a bit of the spin you intended to get by hitting the
same shot harder than necessary. I was only pointing this out because it's amazing
how much more spin you tend to see the pros get while using a smooth even and
quite a bit slower stroke then the average amateur uses to try to achieve the same
goal.


Kevin
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I agree that the pros often make it look easy, and part of that is hitting the ball well off center. Another very large part is that they are usually playing on new cloth which makes draw shots much, much easier than on the old, sticky cloth that most have to play on.
 
pooln8r said:
Hi Mr. Jewett...I meant the contact between the spinning cue ball and an object ball.
I've observed that you can lose quite a bit of the spin you intended to get by hitting the
same shot harder than necessary. I was only pointing this out because it's amazing
how much more spin you tend to see the pros get while using a smooth even and
quite a bit slower stroke then the average amateur uses to try to achieve the same
goal.
Click to expand...

I understood what you meant, and I'm curious about this myself. I know friction between the CB and the cloth is scrubbing off backspin all the way to the OB, but what about at contact itself? Does the CB lose more of its spin during a hard hit with the OB than it does during a slower speed collision?

Seems to me the only reason to hit the CB with real power is to get hard draw on shots where there is lots of separation between the two balls. When the balls are close together it seems to me that I actually get better draw by hitting the ball softer and lower. Or maybe it's just my mediocre stroke?
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I understood what you meant, and I'm curious about this myself. I know friction between the CB and the cloth is scrubbing off backspin all the way to the OB, but what about at contact itself? Does the CB lose more of its spin during a hard hit with the OB than it does during a slower speed collision?

Seems to me the only reason to hit the CB with real power is to get hard draw on shots where there is lots of separation between the two balls. When the balls are close together it seems to me that I actually get better draw by hitting the ball softer and lower. Or maybe it's just my mediocre stroke?
Click to expand...
The cue ball will lose some back spin due to the contact with the object ball. The extreme form of this is when there is a bad contact (skid, cling, kick) between the cue ball and the object ball. Then the friction between the balls is greatly increased and the object ball gets follow while the cue ball loses a fair amount of its draw.

The amount of spin (RPMs) lost will depend on the stickiness of the balls and the speed of the shot. The worst that can happen is for the cue ball to lose half its RPMs at which point the balls "gear" towards the end of the contact time.

If you want to master soft draw shots the best game is simple carom billiards. On the pool table the best are straight pool and one pocket.
 
what about if the CB is slightly airborn during contact? I would think this would kill draw also and may happen with hard shots.
 
mattp said:
what about if the CB is slightly airborn during contact? I would think this would kill draw also and may happen with hard shots.
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This is a problem if you are elevated. In the video the OP linked, the stroke is fairly level and any small hop is not going to change the draw much.

To get a feel for how the jump can kill draw, shoot so that you have to bridge from the rail when drawing from an object ball about six inches away. Draw back to the cushion and out at least two diamond, preferably more. Move the cue ball closer to the cushion and note what happens. Use different speeds.
 
PaulHarvey said:
A bunch of new things to try; thanks!

Some suggested I try to upload the vid to YouTube, so I did.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ppKhgJjjBQ

This video was taken the first day after the first batch of responses to my OP.

Thanks again,
Harvey
Click to expand...

Harvey, I watched your video and froze it at 31 seconds. Then advanced frame by frame by hitting the "L" key. Here's what I saw- 1. You are hitting at center ball in your warmup strokes. 2. You appear to be using a loose grip. 3. On your final stroke, you appear to slightly tighten your grip for the increased speed. 4. You drop your elbow on your final stroke.

With all that combined, going frame by frame, in your warmup strokes you are aligned only one tip below center cb. (not low enough). On your final stroke, when you drop your elbow and slightly tighten your grip, the tip comes up to hit slightly above center ball. Hence, the little bit of follow you get after the hit.

Lower your tip, get it just barely off the cloth. Use a striped ball and set the top of your tip at the bottom of the stripe. Look at how low that seems to be. It should look like your tip is just barely off the cloth. Try not to drop your elbow until after contact. Because when you do drop it before contact, your tip comes up. And, try and keep a loose grip even on your final stroke. When you tighten your grip, you can also raise the tip.

Try setting the tip exactly where you want to make contact. Then, just pause there a couple of seconds, s..l..o..w..l..y bring your tip back, then just go forward on the exact same line you came back on.

Don't get too frustrated, you will get it down pat in no time.

edit: I just watched the rest of your clip in real time. Harvey, understand that pool is a precision game. "Sloppiness" will not be tolerated by the game. Precision will be rewarded. When you set the striped ball as your cue ball, take a few seconds to make sure the stripe is horizontal to the table as good as you can get it. If you don't, which several times you didn't, then you try hitting towards the stripe, you won't be hitting below center of the actual ball. Also, a preshot routine helps tremendously. You are taking warmup strokes before you are even all the way down on the shot. Get down on the shot, THEN take a few warmup strokes. Then pull back slowly, and just go forward on the same line you came back on.
 
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Okie said:
A drill...

The setup is a straight in shot with the cue ball approx. 2 diamonds away from the object ball. The goal of the shot is to draw the ball back to your bridge hand which you have leave on the table long enough for the cue ball to come back and hit it. Here is the twist. I want you to see the tip of your cue hit the bottom half of the cue ball as you strike it. Pocketing the ball is NOT the goal of this drill. However to draw the ball back to your hand a certain level of accuracy is required. Hit at least 30 attempts a day using this technique. Do this drill everyday for 30 days. At that point you will be drawing like Efren and will have taken a step towards perfecting the game!

Tip: If you do not remember seeing the tip hit the cue ball during the stroke then you must assume that you did not hit the cue ball in the desired location. Push yourself to check after every shot that you remember seeing the tip hit the cue ball regardless of where you hit.

Please post videos of your progress regardless of what you choose to do. There is nothing an instructor likes more than seeing a player work to improve!

Good luck!

Ken
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In retrospect, I should have also asked that you use a striped ball and chalk before each shot. Set the stripe so that you can examine it after the shot and determine if what you saw is in fact what happened.

Once you develop the ability to see what is happening as it is happening you will be on your way to success!

From your video it is apparent that you are not hitting the cue ball below center. However, since you have not altered that action you must not be aware that you are striking the cue ball incorrectly. Remember this....the cue ball never lies! It tells you exactly how it was hit each time!

You have been given a lot of good advice in this thread by some very good instructors. However, knowing how to do something is not enough. You must develop the feel of doing the task properly in order to improve. 30 reps for 30 days regardless of what advice you choose. :thumbup:

Good luck,

Ken
 
Harvey...While I saw you using a stripe for your CB, I never once saw you look at the stripe to see where the chalk mark ended up. I suspect you're not striking the CB where you think you are, but also suspect there are other issues (tight grip and grip placement on the cue, among them). You look like you'e aiming below center, but not much. The reasons why you're not drawing the ball can be many, as Bob Jewett mentioned. Again, one lesson with a qualified instructor (one who uses video analysis) would do wonders for you.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

PaulHarvey said:
A bunch of new things to try; thanks!

Some suggested I try to upload the vid to YouTube, so I did.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ppKhgJjjBQ

This video was taken the first day after the first batch of responses to my OP.

Thanks again,
Harvey
Click to expand...
 
quadrary said:
I haven't seen you shoot a draw shot but I would bet you are punching the stroke instead of a smooth follow through.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do punch the cue sometimes. And sometimes I don't. I think one of my biggest problems shooting pool is I don't have a consistent stroke.

Thanks,
Harvey
 
Bob Jewett said:
That shot and the associated technique are not useful to you at the present level of your fundamentals. Neither is the demo in the video posted.
Click to expand...

I'm glad of that! I'm not concerned with doing anything fancy. All I want to do is draw the damn ball with some kind of consistency.

Bob Jewett said:
Do you look at your tip each time you plan to put spin on the cue ball?
Click to expand...

Yes, I pretty much look at the tip every shot, as that's how often I usually chalk up. I didn't use chalk in the video because it takes a lot of time and I wanted to keep file size to a minimum.


Bob Jewett said:
"Hard" is a relative term. You can see how hard you are hitting the ball by shooting the object ball straight up and down the table -- not into a pocket. To draw the cue ball back two diamonds, you will probably drive the object ball two table lengths when you use your very best soft draw. To draw the cue ball a table length, you will probably drive the object ball three or more table lengths.
Click to expand...

Thanks much for this! I've heard and read many suggestions on stroke speed, but I never did figure out how to gauge soft, medium, and hard strokes. And right now I'd be happy just to draw the ball eight inches :/

I think just about everything I do before I shoot is inconsistent. There are times I'm on fire and can't miss (still can't draw tho). And other times I can't sink sh*t.

Thanks for the help!
Harvey
 
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FranCrimi said:
OK Harvey. Got it. You're not hitting the cue ball as low as you think you are. That's partly because you're doing that loop-dee-loop thing that I was afraid you might be doing. You start out with a level stroke and then you dip down to apply backspin. But that dipping thing you do looks to be happening after your stick hits the cue ball, which doesn't do you much good.
Click to expand...

I believe you're right, I often don't hit as low as I think I am. But sometimes I do. Yet another example of my inconsistency :/ Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean by "loop-de-loop." Can you explain? And what am I dipping down?

FranCrimi said:
Aim lower. Hit lower. Even let yourself miscue a couple of times just to make sure you're lower on the ball. Hey, it's just practice, and try not to loop your stroke into the ball. Try to stroke on the same plane, which should be slightly angled towards the cue ball.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I have miscued many times, sometimes I even take the QB for a ride on top of the stick for an inch or two ;)

I think I'm gettin there though.

Thanks again,
Harvey
 
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