Can't stand APA 9-ball

[OneIron]

When at the national level the APA disqualifies less than 10 out of 700 or so teams for handicap manipulation, with tourney officials everywhere watching, there isn't a sand bagging problem.

My understanding is that the only players who get DQ'd in Vegas are those that play two levels above their handicap. That being the case, the vast majority of sandbaggers simply don't get caught because they're careful how strong they play.

As for the ones who get DQ'd in Vegas, that certainly doesn't help all of those players with integrity who got eliminated along the way by dishonest players.

In my region, there definitely is a sandbagging problem. They're just smart enough to get away with it.

 

[Matt]

I love the points format. They figured out how to take a game I basically can't stand, and make it playable and even enjoyable.

9 ball has always been a dumb game. At the low levels, where neither player can run out an open rack, it's a coin flip who sinks the 9. Maybe one guy runs the first six and the other runs 3 balls. Maybe the next game, it's 4 and then 5. Or maybe player A runs 2, B runs 4, A runs 3. It's a complete tossup.

If I have never run 9 balls in my life, what's my incentive to make the one ball? And if I know you can't run out either, why shouldn't I just try a .00001% flyer at the 9 every time, until a few balls are off the table? With a points format, playing shape and running balls consistently is rewarded. Not sitting back and waiting for someone to rattle the 8 so you can sink 2 ducks.

Exactly. 9-ball strategy really breaks down if you're not likely to run out a wide open rack, which describes most of the APA's target market, so they had to rework the game a bit. Since the most widely known game in the US after 8-ball is 9-ball, they used that as a starting point and just changed the scoring. Like it or not, it is easily handicapped and still retains the element of luck and the fast pace that made Texas Express 9-ball popular to begin with.

 

[krupa]

if the 9 doesnt count and its about sinking balls play straight pool :wink: im happy we dont have any handycapping league formats, your not up to the task? sit down and take your loss. i had matches where i sat down for 5 or 6 racks, but i didnt cry, i tried to play better.

but who wants to improve or even learn a game by playing a game this way (sort of you cant play chess? well than we play it with poker rules?!=> yes, it doesnt make any sense)

Your analogy doesn't work; APA 9-ball is played by regular 9-ball rules except there's no push-out and the winning condition is different.

So to use the chess example, it would be like playing chess with no en passant (an obscure rule that casual players usually don't know about) and you can win by capturing either the king or queen.

 

[McKinneyMiner]

It took me a while, but I finally have come to peace with APA 9-ball...

Because it isn't 9-ball... They just call it that for lack of a better name...

And if you are able to tell yourself that it can actually be fun and challenging...

The object of true 9-ball is one thing... Make the 9-ball... Win the game... Period...

This isn't that...

What it is is short rack rotation straight pool... Every ball matters and has to be treated as such... And since the 9-ball counts 2 points there is an incentive (especially for the player that has made less balls in a given rack) to concentrate expecially hard on that one...

Playing APA 9-ball I have never lost in my league to a person of my skill equal skill level... Normally I am spotting other players 20+ balls on loose bar tables and that is no easy proposition...

But the game isn't 9-ball...

They just call it that so beginners will have some frame of reference as to what they are playing...

 

[mantis99]

I Just got done with my 9-ball match and lost again. I really hate the way the APA scores their matches. I won almost every game but lost the match. I mean how messed up is this. How can you let someone with when they lost 90% of the games be called a winner.

I grew up playing defensive and waiting for the perfect out and I would win that way. But now that they got this point system in place apparently winning isn't important and has taken defensive long run strategy out of the picture and tuned this into a purely offensive game. I think 9-ball should be treated the same way 8-ball is and you should be judged by the number of games you win.

The APA should at the very least make the 9-ball worth more than 2 points (4 or 5 would be good) so people get more credit for winning the game.

Does anyone else feel this way?

No. I disagree with you. In general I think the better player has a distinct advantage playing by points, and it is easier to handicap this way. Too often a player runs to the 7 or 8 ball only to miss and give the game away to a lesser player.

 

[Maniac]

It took me a while, but I finally have come to peace with APA 9-ball...

Because it isn't 9-ball... They just call it that for lack of a better name...

And if you are able to tell yourself that it can actually be fun and challenging...

The object of true 9-ball is one thing... Make the 9-ball... Win the game... Period...

This isn't that...

What it is is short rack rotation straight pool... Every ball matters and has to be treated as such... And since the 9-ball counts 2 points there is an incentive (especially for the player that has made less balls in a given rack) to concentrate expecially hard on that one...

Playing APA 9-ball I have never lost in my league to a person of my skill equal skill level... Normally I am spotting other players 20+ balls on loose bar tables and that is no easy proposition...

But the game isn't 9-ball...

They just call it that so beginners will have some frame of reference as to what they are playing...

This too is a good description of APA 9-ball. Nice post McKinneyMiner!!!

Maniac (us Texans hafta stick together :grin

 

[Icon of Sin]

It took me a while, but I finally have come to peace with APA 9-ball...

Because it isn't 9-ball... They just call it that for lack of a better name...

And if you are able to tell yourself that it can actually be fun and challenging...

The object of true 9-ball is one thing... Make the 9-ball... Win the game... Period...

This isn't that...

What it is is short rack rotation straight pool... Every ball matters and has to be treated as such... And since the 9-ball counts 2 points there is an incentive (especially for the player that has made less balls in a given rack) to concentrate expecially hard on that one...

Playing APA 9-ball I have never lost in my league to a person of my skill equal skill level... Normally I am spotting other players 20+ balls on loose bar tables and that is no easy proposition...

But the game isn't 9-ball...

They just call it that so beginners will have some frame of reference as to what they are playing...

YES! I love that.

I'm going to join an APA Short Rack rotation straight pool league!

 

[americanfighter]

No. I disagree with you. In general I think the better player has a distinct advantage playing by points, and it is easier to handicap this way. Too often a player runs to the 7 or 8 ball only to miss and give the game away to a lesser player.

See but that's what I love about 9-ball you got to know when to run and have the nerves to finish the run. If you go for a run out and can't finish the job then there are stiff penalties.

As someone said before this just isn't 9-ball it's a completely different game.

Using the chess example It would be like racing to a number of captures the king doesn't matter. This completely changes the game as strategies such as sacrificing lesser pieces to take better pieces or sacrificing pieces to get better position to attack the king become obsolete.

 

[JuicyGirl]

It took me a while, but I finally have come to peace with APA 9-ball...

Because it isn't 9-ball... They just call it that for lack of a better name...

And if you are able to tell yourself that it can actually be fun and challenging...

The object of true 9-ball is one thing... Make the 9-ball... Win the game... Period...

This isn't that...

What it is is short rack rotation straight pool... Every ball matters and has to be treated as such... And since the 9-ball counts 2 points there is an incentive (especially for the player that has made less balls in a given rack) to concentrate expecially hard on that one...

You are 100% right!
I love Rotation, it's always fun at the beginning and then suddenly everyone is serious! I LOVE IT!!!

 

[hang-the-9]

I used to play in the NE Master's league. First, it's called shot 9-ball, rack your own, 9 on break gets spotted. Win! You get 1pt per ball in a loss, winner gets 14 pts for the win. If you run 1-8 and miss the 9, you get 8 pts, the guy sinking the 9 gets 14. So you do get punished for not winning and just making balls, just l like in a real game.

Sorry to jump in, but Mark said exactly what I understand. At the National level, they do not run the tournament by points or any handicap method.

At the local level, the individual local operator can run their local league how they choose. For example, there are some BCAPL-sanctioned leagues that actually simply use APA rules as their ruleset. Many will use the suggested format of round robin, 10pt system. The New England Billiard League modified that system so that the handicap levels is approximately the same as the APA (an SL-7 is ~ a 7 or so in that particular league).

In other words, across the country, the individual leagues can do whatever format they want at the local levels.


But, if their team goes to BCAPL Nationals, then they have to play by BCAPL rules. This was true before Mark acquired the BCA leagues.

Freddie

 

[Banks]

If you want to knock APA's 9b..

It teaches you to control the table.. if you can't do that, you'd probably get eaten up in a real 9b game with somebody that can control the table.

Playing it like you're letting the other player run off most of the balls while not worrying about the 9 "because it's tied up", means that you're not playing somebody that can run out anyways or they don't know how to play the game. Either way, don't get ahead of yourself on this idea.

Learn how to control the table, learn how to pocket balls, then ***** about it.

I think it's a great game and it's easy to use their handicap to make a game with others(you can always give/get a bigger spot than what the rankings are).

 

[Koop]

I don't mind it.
The only thing that irks the hell out of me is the no push rule.

My analogy of why it should be used is always:
What if you're in the finals for a shot at Vegas and you both need one ball. You break dry and can't make a hit. It would really suck to miss a tough hit and give away BIH and watch the other team go to Vegas.
At least with a push rule it could turn into a safety battle and BOTH players would have a chance to win.

 

[Maniac]

I don't mind it.
The only thing that irks the hell out of me is the no push rule.

Every time this subject comes up there are arguments as to why there is no push rule in APA 9-ball. Most of what I read/hear people say that defend NOT having the push is that the rule is too hard for the lower skill-leveled players to understand . To which I say:

1.) Do lower skill-level players have less intelligence than higher skill-level players? I don't think so.

2.) Couldn't the less skilled (and apparently less intelligent ) players that do not understand the rule be given a non-timeout explanation by a coach/captain whenever the situation arose?

3.) Don't you think that after a few, at most, explanations that anyone not understanding the rule could get a grasp of it?

I'm a SL7 in APA 9-ball. One night a couple years ago I played a SL8 in a match. He broke dry and left me without a shot. I kicked unsuccessfully and before I looked up he had nearly 30 balls to zilch. I never had a chance. I'd like to think that if I could have pushed, he may not have gotten off to that kind of start.

Another question: Why can't they have it in the rules where if two SL6's (or higher) play one another, then that match could use the push-out?

The no-push rule really sucks, imo.

Maniac

 

[StampTheSpot]

I don't mind it.
The only thing that irks the hell out of me is the no push rule.

My analogy of why it should be used is always:
What if you're in the finals for a shot at Vegas and you both need one ball. You break dry and can't make a hit. It would really suck to miss a tough hit and give away BIH and watch the other team go to Vegas.
At least with a push rule it could turn into a safety battle and BOTH players would have a chance to win.

Totally agree, I see no reason why there shouldn't be a push rule.

 

[HueblerHustler7]

I Just got done with my 9-ball match and lost again. I really hate the way the APA scores their matches. I won almost every game but lost the match. I mean how messed up is this. How can you let someone with when they lost 90% of the games be called a winner.

I grew up playing defensive and waiting for the perfect out and I would win that way. But now that they got this point system in place apparently winning isn't important and has taken defensive long run strategy out of the picture and tuned this into a purely offensive game. I think 9-ball should be treated the same way 8-ball is and you should be judged by the number of games you win.

The APA should at the very least make the 9-ball worth more than 2 points (4 or 5 would be good) so people get more credit for winning the game.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Cant stand it... Dont join it... Plain and simple.

 

[rjb1168]

I don't mind it.
The only thing that irks the hell out of me is the no push rule.

Agree 100%

 

[jbbilliards1]

The reason there is NO push allowed is that a Higher level player can push the rock into a position where he/she can manipulate the shot into a safety or a higher difficulty shot, where as a lower level player would be near clueless on what to do.

Its not that hard to understand.

Play in the MASTERS you can push, jump cues are allowed, its the best of the best of the APA

From my experience the best of the best of the APA never complain about rules or format, because it doesnt matter What Rules or WHat format, if Your a HIGHER level player your going to WIN and I mean Skill level 9 and higher, nothing lower, so pls stop *****ing :grin:

 

[JAlan]

When at the national level the APA disqualifies less than 10 out of 700 or so teams for handicap manipulation, with tourney officials everywhere watching, there isn't a sand bagging problem.

There aren't really any key balls in an APA 9 ball rack. They all count. The general idea is if you can't run out don't put your opponent into a position where he can easily pocket a ball and get a run of his own going. If that means riding the 9 in to get a new rack out there, that's what you do.

I also think the 9 ball handicapping system is well thought out and effective. When you get moved up those extra 8 to 10 balls you have to make really have an effect. You have to adjust your approach to weaker opponents and you give up a rack's worht of points to the guy who was giving them to you the week prior. The challenge increases as the handicap increases, which is what a good handicapping system should do.

I like the format, it's challenging and fun, my only complaint is the score keeping. I have a really hard time paying that close of attention to a match I am not playing. When I am playing, I'd rather not know the score. I just keep shooting until someone tells me to stop.

I would also agree that the Masters format really lets you know where you stand in relation to everyone else. It also has a great format.

Totally agree. I honestly think the 9 Ball scoring / handicap system works better than the 8 Ball. The better player will prevail the vast majority of the time.

 

[justadub]

Every time this subject comes up there are arguments as to why there is no push rule in APA 9-ball. Most of what I read/hear people say that defend NOT having the push is that the rule is too hard for the lower skill-leveled players to understand . To which I say:

1.) Do lower skill-level players have less intelligence than higher skill-level players? I don't think so.

2.) Couldn't the less skilled (and apparently less intelligent ) players that do not understand the rule be given a non-timeout explanation by a coach/captain whenever the situation arose?

3.) Don't you think that after a few, at most, explanations that anyone not understanding the rule could get a grasp of it?

I'm a SL7 in APA 9-ball. One night a couple years ago I played a SL8 in a match. He broke dry and left me without a shot. I kicked unsuccessfully and before I looked up he had nearly 30 balls to zilch. I never had a chance. I'd like to think that if I could have pushed, he may not have gotten off to that kind of start.

Another question: Why can't they have it in the rules where if two SL6's (or higher) play one another, then that match could use the push-out?

The no-push rule really sucks, imo.

Maniac

I want to be very careful how I answer point #1 above.....

Perhaps the answer is that many lower level players lack.....sophistication? At least so far as pool goes. I am just trying to envision the discussion of the push rule
with many of the folks in our division. I simply think it opens a whole lot of possibility for conflict. Yes, among those who aren't very pool-experienced. You know, those who make up the majority of most leagues.

Dont get me wrong, if they changed tomorrow and added the push rule, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I just think i understand why.

What could I know, though....I can't run 5 balls in a row. (Oops, that's a different thread, isn't it?).

 

[JAlan]

It took me a while, but I finally have come to peace with APA 9-ball...

Because it isn't 9-ball... They just call it that for lack of a better name...

And if you are able to tell yourself that it can actually be fun and challenging...

The object of true 9-ball is one thing... Make the 9-ball... Win the game... Period...

This isn't that...

What it is is short rack rotation straight pool... Every ball matters and has to be treated as such... And since the 9-ball counts 2 points there is an incentive (especially for the player that has made less balls in a given rack) to concentrate expecially hard on that one...

Playing APA 9-ball I have never lost in my league to a person of my skill equal skill level... Normally I am spotting other players 20+ balls on loose bar tables and that is no easy proposition...

But the game isn't 9-ball...

They just call it that so beginners will have some frame of reference as to what they are playing...

A very good description!

There are 9 balls, and they are shot in rotation. That's about where the similarities end! I think that may be a new gambling spot....

"Let's play a race to 100 points 9 ball for $100, APA 9 ball rules! I'll spot you 20 points" I think I like it!