CB last before shooting

[ENGLISH!]

Regarding your quote in bold --- funny you should mention that. Based on the research I've done on golf lately, It's my impression that golfers are just recognizing that they actually don't see the club hit the ball because the force of the swing pulls their head up before impact. If they try to force their head to stay still through the swing, they are actually hurting the natural motion of the swing.

I wouldn't exactly compare it to a pool stroke because of the amount of movement involved and the intensity and force.

Fran,

As I said in a previous paragraph to that, I have never seen the implement hit any ball in any sport that I have played.

When I was teaching my oldest son to play golf there was a period where he started to stare at the ball with his hands & arms running across his body. I immediately explained the different outcomes & that he should not stare at the ball & to just let his head move when it wanted to do so. He never again stared at the ball. He hits the ball a mile & at sea level.

We have amazing minds & bodies & their connection is amazing too.

Sometimes what one does naturally is better than what is being taught until the 'science' truly understands & the teaching catches up to Mother Nature.

Now many times has a golf instructor said, 'keep your head down & look at the ball'?

If only I had a penny for every time.

Best,
Rick

 

[scottjen26]

Regarding your quote in bold --- funny you should mention that. Based on the research I've done on golf lately, It's my impression that golfers are just recognizing that they actually don't see the club hit the ball because the force of the swing pulls their head up before impact. If they try to force their head to stay still through the swing, they are actually hurting the natural motion of the swing.

I wouldn't exactly compare it to a pool stroke because of the amount of movement involved and the intensity and force.

As usual, very astute Fran. I believe David Duval was another golfer who had a more pronounced head turn, and before his collapse he was number one in the game...

Tennis is similar. It's been proven you can't actually see the impact, happens too fast. What you have is the "impression" of impact, which is good enough for most. You obviously don't want to jerk your head unnaturally to look too quick where the ball is going in any sport, and as you said you also shouldn't unnaturally keep your eyes too focused on the impact zone and prevent your body from moving naturally. There is a trade off for sure, and as with pool I think most good players find what works for them.

In pool, I just learned on my own to have more of that hammer/nail feeling as opposed to the rifle analogy. I still look up toward the object ball during the stroke, although I was unaware of that until a few years ago. Again, I think whatever conceptual feeling we each have when shooting that helps consistency and provides feedback can work. I'm sure if I saw slow motion video of myself playing tennis or golf I would discover things that are not actually what I perceive during the swing...
Scott

 

[ENGLISH!]

As usual, very astute Fran. I believe David Duval was another golfer who had a more pronounced head turn, and before his collapse he was number one in the game...

Tennis is similar. It's been proven you can't actually see the impact, happens too fast. What you have is the "impression" of impact, which is good enough for most. You obviously don't want to jerk your head unnaturally to look too quick where the ball is going in any sport, and as you said you also shouldn't unnaturally keep your eyes too focused on the impact zone and prevent your body from moving naturally. There is a trade off for sure, and as with pool I think most good players find what works for them.

In pool, I just learned on my own to have more of that hammer/nail feeling as opposed to the rifle analogy. I still look up toward the object ball during the stroke, although I was unaware of that until a few years ago. Again, I think whatever conceptual feeling we each have when shooting that helps consistency and provides feedback can work. I'm sure if I saw slow motion video of myself playing tennis or golf I would discover things that are not actually what I perceive during the swing...
Scott

Scott,

Good post & well said.

Do you have any ideas regarding my current situation.

Best,
Rick

 

[jkohlhepp]

As a #1 state tennis player, the concept of not looking at the ball as you hit it is absurd and just not true. Google "nadal at contact," and you'll see that in every image he is staring at his ball hit the racket. On no planet in this universe would a professional tennis player think about taking his eyes off the ball on a volley. The most analogous tennis shot to a pool shot is certainly the serve. Once again, looking at the tennis ball the entire time.

I am also a low handicap golfer. The ONLY two reasons that any golfers do not look at the golf ball at impact is to emphasize shaft lean and to get your head out of the way, which shouldn't even really be an issue with correct posture. Regardless, the vast majority of pro golfers look at the golf ball at impact, but there are a few greats that look ahead of the ball at impact (Annika Sorenstam is famous for this, and she is only famous for this because hardly anyone else does it). But, guess what ahead is? It is about a foot in front of the ball. They are not looking at the damn green as they make contact with the golf ball. That is ridiculous. We are talking about AT IMPACT. Of course you will pick your head up after impact, otherwise you could not physically complete a fundamentally correct swing. What you are looking at after impact in pool is totally irrelevant and has no impact on your stroke.

To the previous player comparing shooting guns and arrows to pool, that is equally absurd. In pool, your first target is the cue ball. You are hitting the cue ball. Are you hitting bullets to your target? Are you hitting arrows to your target? No. Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Additionally, someone said you want to be able to watch the cue ball hit the object ball. You can easily do that while looking at the CB at impact on most shots... just look up afterwards. Depending on the shot, I sometimes look at OB last, but I just wanted to point out the ridiculously incorrect statements in this thread.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... the concept of not looking at the ball as you hit it is absurd and just not true.... On no planet in this universe ... That is ridiculous. ... is totally irrelevant and has no impact on your stroke.
... equally absurd. ... Absolutely ridiculous comparison. ... I just wanted to point out the ridiculously incorrect statements in this thread.

I agree that it is often a little sketchy to try to compare what happens at pool to other games. There is obviously no tennis or golf player who uses the same eye patterns as top pool players such as Allison Fisher, and certainly the things that need to be learned are far different.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

As a #1 state tennis player, the concept of not looking at the ball as you hit it is absurd and just not true. Google "nadal at contact," and you'll see that in every image he is staring at his ball hit the racket. On no planet in this universe would a professional tennis player think about taking his eyes off the ball on a volley. The most analogous tennis shot to a pool shot is certainly the serve. Once again, looking at the tennis ball the entire time.

I am also a low handicap golfer. The ONLY two reasons that any golfers do not look at the golf ball at impact is to emphasize shaft lean and to get your head out of the way, which shouldn't even really be an issue with correct posture. Regardless, the vast majority of pro golfers look at the golf ball at impact, but there are a few greats that look ahead of the ball at impact (Annika Sorenstam is famous for this, and she is only famous for this because hardly anyone else does it). But, guess what ahead is? It is about a foot in front of the ball. They are not looking at the damn green as they make contact with the golf ball. That is ridiculous. We are talking about AT IMPACT. Of course you will pick your head up after impact, otherwise you could not physically complete a fundamentally correct swing. What you are looking at after impact in pool is totally irrelevant and has no impact on your stroke.

To the previous player comparing shooting guns and arrows to pool, that is equally absurd. In pool, your first target is the cue ball. You are hitting the cue ball. Are you hitting bullets to your target? Are you hitting arrows to your target? No. Absolutely ridiculous comparison. Additionally, someone said you want to be able to watch the cue ball hit the object ball. You can easily do that while looking at the CB at impact on most shots... just look up afterwards. Depending on the shot, I sometimes look at OB last, but I just wanted to point out the ridiculously incorrect statements in this thread.

Out of idle curiosity, given you're a tennis champ and low handicap golfer, how are you at pool?

I've never come across any decent cue sports players who look at the CB last.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

There are major differences between pool and golf or tennis; the logic doesn't cross over. In tennis the ball is moving. In golf the target of the ball is pretty small while the target of the landing area is pretty big in comparison.

Here's the way I see it. In pool there are really 4 targets - the CB contact point, the OB contact point, the pocket, and the position you want to CB to finish. The last two you can disregard in terms of your vision because they are entirely dependent on getting the first two correct, along with the proper speed. I don't agree with the idea if your stroke is straight then you don't need to look at the OB last because if your stroke is straight then you don''t need to look at the CB last either, you will hit the CB where you've set up to hit it.

So either you look at the CB or the OB. Try doing each and one will work better, being you more success, seem more natural for you, and give you more confidence.

What ever works for you. For me, that is the contact point on the OB last. I just have the most confidence and success with that. For the most part the CB will go where I'm looking and ultimately I want the CB to go to the contact point on the OB, so that's where I look. The way I look at it, the effects of spin aside, ultimately that's the single most important target - the contact point on the OB. So that's where I look when I stroke.

To each his own. :thumbup:

 

[Ralph Kramden]

When comparing looking at the OB or CB last... Does it really matter? I will look at either ball last, depending on the feel of the shot.

To shoot a rifle (with open sights) you focus on the front sight and the target. If you focus on the rear sight accuracy is compromised.

To shoot a pistol accurately the opposite is true. To hit the target you focus on the front sight and the rear sight. The target is fuzzy.

I usually look at the OB last, but sometimes looking at the CB last just feels right. If I feel looking CB last is more comfortable I'll do it.

.

 

[jkohlhepp]

Out of idle curiosity, given you're a tennis champ and low handicap golfer, how are you at pool?

I've never come across any decent cue sports players who look at the CB last.

I'm not that great at pool. I just recently started trying to take it to the next level. I look at OB ball last 80% of the time, anyway. I really do not know which way is better for me yet. I grew up looking at cue ball last and have changed within the last year or so. I was just pointing out the inaccuracies of the comments made about sports that I am actually good at.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I want to watch the object ball at the last split second is so I can connect

I have always avoided using "cue ball last" as describing what I do. I prefer "while executing the stroke" or "when the cue contacts the cue ball". Focusing on the point I want to hit on the cue ball and the line I want the cue tip to follow, does not prevent me from following the cue ball after impact by the cue. I am getting feed back as the tip contacts the cue ball and before the cue ball contacts the object ball. I have no problem seeing the resulting impact between cue ball and object ball. I know if I hit the ball where I intended before that collision. The results of that collision are easily observed.( I love the Yogiism, "You can observe a lot by watching"). At that point I can focus on the path of either ball.
:thumbup:

The break shot is an instance where the path of the cue ball after impact with the rack, tells me whether I have hit the shot accurately.

The main reason I want to watch the object ball at the last split second is so I can connect to it's path to the pocket.....remember, the pocket is your final destination for the shot, and without that one being correct nothing else really matters. 'The Game is the Teacher'