CB or OB - Did I Misunderstand?

[Russ Chewning]

Hu,

I think I get what you are saying. That the aim picture changes depending on whether you focus on the OB or CB. If you don't commit to one or the other, then you will have inconsistency in your aiming line, which will lead to more misses.

Tho, by saying this, I am not condoning looking at the CB last. While theoretically possible, I think also in theory, the longer your stroke, the harder it is to follow a straight line with your stroke, and you are relying on basic muscle memory to provide a straight stroke. At least by looking at the OB last, your brain has the capability to "steer" the cue in the right diection to make an accurate hit, whereas this is not possible by sighting the CB last. With a CB last method, if you lined up your cue the SLIGHTEST bit off line, then you are going to miss the shot.

Russ

 

[JDB]

huh?
you mean students are not allowed to ask questions? i always thought there is no such thing as a stupid question. or are some of you people not really instructors after all?

DCP

Here we go again... You have had instruction from Mark Wilson, arguably one of the best instructors in the world, who studied with Jerry Brieseth, who is also arguably one of the best instructors in the world. In addition, I think you also worked with Scott Lee who also is a great instructor, according to the feedback I have read.

I know from other threads that you have also had in-depth conversations with Blackjack and Randy G, two more very well respected instructors.

You have probably worked with other instructors, as well, but I haven't really been counting... Yet you refuse to use what you learn from them.

The attached post is a perfect example...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=15172

I think if you would actually try to incorporate what the instructors have told you over the years, you would have a much better chance of succeeding.

JMO.

 

[asn130]

I'll put a target on my back

I also look at the cueball last, i always have & it works just fine for me

I have tried to look at the object ball like eveyone says, but it just doesn't work for me. I'm lucky to make any ball.

Ok, now open fire!

 

[Thunderball]

Two points:

1.This kinda shat is why DCP was my one and only ignore list guy.The only reason he's not now is because threads like this one are confusing as hell if left that way.Try it,you'll see what I mean.

2. Russ may be right.WBM may be wrong...but imo its a 50/50 proposition.
Me...I thinks its some of both..not one or the other.

 

[poolhustler]

I think in your case you should look at the CB first, last and always. Forget there even is an OB and just fire away. I think the results may surprise you. You'll probably make more balls and have more fun.

Just remember, "hit 'em hard and hope!" Six pockets means six chances to make a ball if it's rolling fast enough. I do not charge for these valuable lessons, even though I know I should. If there's anything else you want to know, please don't hesitate to ask.

I'm very good when it comes to holding the cue properly (two hands for beginners), proper stance (one foot on the floor and one on the table provides excellent balance), and effective stroking (lunge, don't plunge!).

Pretty soon, you'll have students of your own to coach along the same path that got you where you're at today. Congratulations on the remarkable progress you have made already.

Jay, Jay, Jay.........You is funnier than SHIAT !!!!!!



Russ.....

 

[ShootingArts]

correct and correct

Hu,

I think I get what you are saying. That the aim picture changes depending on whether you focus on the OB or CB. If you don't commit to one or the other, then you will have inconsistency in your aiming line, which will lead to more misses.

Exactly what I was saying.

Tho, by saying this, I am not condoning looking at the CB last. While theoretically possible, I think also in theory, the longer your stroke, the harder it is to follow a straight line with your stroke, and you are relying on basic muscle memory to provide a straight stroke. At least by looking at the OB last, your brain has the capability to "steer" the cue in the right diection to make an accurate hit, whereas this is not possible by sighting the CB last. With a CB last method, if you lined up your cue the SLIGHTEST bit off line, then you are going to miss the shot.

Russ

Russ,

What you are saying here is correct also but there are two sides of the coin. While you can't make midstroke corrections when you aren't focused downrange, you also won't make midstroke false corrections that result in a miss. My opinion is that there should be no midstroke adjustments at all. We should have recognized the need for adjustment before then and either made a very slight adjustment or better came off of the shot and back down again on line.

Like most I look at the object ball last. However I don't like to present that as the absolute and only way to do something because when I spent about a month looking at the cue ball last I found it very possible to make tough shots like that. I also sometimes go to what is called a thousand yard stare in the military after lining up the shot, focusing on nothing, and often shoot exceptionally well in that mode. Too, I seem to remember that a few top players looked at the cue ball last so hard to say it can't work. Like the strange strokes and other "flaws" some top players have, almost anything including looking at the cue ball last can work. I doubt many will agree that it is the easiest way though.

My testing did show that if the primary concern is hitting the cue ball exactly where intended you should indeed look at the cue ball last. However on most shots hitting the cue ball within an eighth inch of where you intended is usually adequate. (parallel english, I haven't tested with back hand english)

I'll PM you something to try just for entertainment soon.

Hu

 

[Mark Avlon]

Those would fall under the 'specialty' shot class that I believe it was Bob that mentioned.

So, on a thin cut, what do you look at? The object ball or where the cue ball is to go?

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Scaramouche]

Line up the shot, close eyes, shoot.

If aim is true and stoke is true the shot will be made

See how simple it is to put an end to endless discussion

 

[Matt_24]

DCP -

It always sounds as if you have no fun at this game. You're obviously not getting better....

You switched from a SCHON to a CUETEC for God's sake. WTF? This tells me you don't have much sense.

Just quit pool forever. You love to overanalyze stuff, and perhaps you just don't have natural hand-eye coordination. Some people don't. Some people will never grasp or progress in pool. If you're one of those people drink beer, join a league, and you can still have fun. There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean that as an insult to the majority of league players. Or you can quit and play chess.

Seriously, can't you tell that we're all just tired of your stupid, idiotic, moronic posts. I'm not calling you stupid because you're not...just your posts. Well, not necessarily stupid, just incredibly, incessantly, ANNOYING. Everytime I see a new post by you I know it will end up as a train wreck. You don't want to look, you tell yourself that nothing benefitial will come of it - it might scar you emotionally from viewing something that horrendous in nature - yet you have to look.

Yes DCP...they are. No, don't argue. Every post you make on here is annoying.... all of the time....sorry...someone has to tell you. I know that I can be annoying, but not all of the time (just most of the time).

Now please quit AZ forever and enjoy a life of playing pool by yourself in your apartment. Good luck.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

DCP -

It always sounds as if you have no fun at this game. You're obviously not getting better....

Says Who?

You switched from a SCHON to a CUETEC for God's sake. WTF? This tells me you don't have much sense. No, I Did Not. I bought a Cuetec cue, thats all.

Just quit pool forever. You love to overanalyze stuff, Overanalyze? thats a possibility

Yes DCP...they are. No, don't argue. Every post you make on here is annoying.... all of the time....sorry...someone has to tell you. I've gotten many PMs from others, thanking me for posting a shot, or bringing up a subject. Sorry....just thought i would tell you that.

Now please quit AZ forever and enjoy a life of playing pool by yourself in your apartment. Good luck.

that would be the life!

DCP

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

Line up the shot, close eyes, shoot.

If aim is true and stoke is true the shot will be made

See how simple it is to put an end to endless discussion

once i had an instructor have me line up a shot, then turn my head away, and see if i could make the shot. which i did.

so, therefore, i almost agree with you here Scaramouche. if the aim is good, the alignment is good, the stroke is good, what difference does it make what you look at last???

and for those that say all my instructors are telling me one thing and i wont listen........well, i've had other instructors and other professional players tell me the opposite.

so, until the 11th Commandment becomes "Thou Shalt Look At Thy Object Ball Last", i am going to continue to experiment.

DCP

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

For starters, thanks for the label. Your Welcome. I see you still have your insult for me as your signature too.

You come on here asking for advice on just about every shot that you miss. Wrong. Thats a ridiculous statement. geez, are you getting caught up with all the crap that goes on in this forum, and getting carried away with it too?

You are the only person I have come into contact with in over 35+ years that has shown absolutely no improvement after getting some of the best instruction that the world has to offer. Who says i havent improved? I've come a long, LONG ways since i took my first lesson from Tom Rossman. from basically being a beginner to being able to run racks on a good day.

That leads many of us to believe that there may be something wrong with you, not the instruction. Yes, i might be one of those that just isnt going to get any better. Only time will tell if i go from being a fair player, to being a very good & consistent performer at the table.

Think about that for a while.

i did - for 5 seconds, which is longer than your insults deserve.

i thought you had me on ignore anyway? that would look better for you than coming on here and firing insults my way.

DCP

 

[td873]

once i had an instructor have me line up a shot, then turn my head away, and see if i could make the shot. which i did.... if the aim is good, the alignment is good, the stroke is good, what difference does it make what you look at last???

I guarantee that your overall shooting percentage will decrease substantially if you close your eyes, or look away. You may, in fact, be able to make some of the shots -> but the key to becoming a good player is NOT to shoot a shot until you make it, rather, repeat a shot until you don't miss it. For example, just because I can make a shot behind my back and under my leg while hopping with an egg balanced on my head, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It CAN be done, but that doesn't change the fact that you should look at the OB last...

and for those that say all my instructors are telling me one thing and i wont listen........well, i've had other instructors and other professional players tell me the opposite.

Are you saying that you are instructed 2 different ways and don't listen to either?

so, until the 11th Commandment becomes "Thou Shalt Look At Thy Object Ball Last", i am going to continue to experiment.

This experiment should be quick: pick 5 (or more) relatively hard shots. Shoot eah one 20 times, 1/2 while looking at the cue ball last, and 1/2 looking at the OB last. Don't shoot the same shot 20 in a row, as you'll develop short term rote memory. Rotate the shots somehow. Keep track of the results. At the end, you'll have a success rate. I figure this should take about an hour.

-td

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

I guarantee that your overall shooting percentage will decrease substantially if you close your eyes, or look away. this was all about my instructor trying to get me to "Trust The Stroke & Mechanics" because he said they looked pretty good to him.

Are you saying that you are instructed 2 different ways and don't listen to either? i listen to both. i also have an open mind, and search for alternatives.

This experiment should be quick: pick 5 (or more) relatively hard shots. Shoot each one 20 times, 1/2 while looking at the cue ball last, and 1/2 looking at the OB last. Don't shoot the same shot 20 in a row, as you'll develop short term rote memory. Rotate the shots somehow. Keep track of the results. At the end, you'll have a success rate. I figure this should take about an hour. noble idea. but i know for certain my success rate looking at the CB last will certainly be higher

thanks for the response td873.

DCP

"No signature line insulting people down here for me"

 

[ShootingArts]

prejudging in an error in itself

(quoting from DCP's reply to td873)
This experiment should be quick: pick 5 (or more) relatively hard shots. Shoot each one 20 times, 1/2 while looking at the cue ball last, and 1/2 looking at the OB last. Don't shoot the same shot 20 in a row, as you'll develop short term rote memory. Rotate the shots somehow. Keep track of the results. At the end, you'll have a success rate. I figure this should take about an hour. noble idea. but i know for certain my success rate looking at the CB last will certainly be higher

thanks for the response td873.

DCP
(end quote)

DCP,

In my gut I know this is a waste of time telling you but the reason folks get frustrated and annoyed trying to help you is that you seem to be the kind of person that would spend an hour arguing with a stop sign. People regardless of their status can't convince you anything is true, and you won't test things without prejudging them. Testing while already expecting a certain result is almost certainly doomed to be worthless. Although I respect td873 a great deal I'm not sure a short term test would work anyway but it is worth trying without bias. With the hours you spend spinning your wheels on this forum, is one hour of your time so valuable that you can't open your mind and spend an hour applying his test?

One thing I found and you probably will is even just moving your eyes with no body or head movement, your stroke changes when you look at the cue ball close to you or the object ball down the table. Spend an hour testing this: True or false? Does your stroke change? How did it change if it did?

Even someone who wants to learn everything the hard way has to approach the process with an open mind. The wrong way with hundreds or thousands of hours of practicing will work better than the right way with a few hours of practice. That doesn't mean that you aren't ultimately better off doing things the right way, just that you have to work past your built in compensations that you have used for ages doing things the wrong way.

My last trip to the pool hall was a total disaster. I had corrected my contact point on the cue ball at home after hitting the same amount off for endless hours. Now my aim on longer shots is that tiny bit off. I could go back to hitting the cue ball other than where I am aiming at or I can spend the time to adjust my aimpoints on the object balls to correspond with the fact I now hit the cue ball much more accurately. Should I go back to my old error that works or should I learn the new aimpoints on the object balls that ultimately gives me more control of my game?

Hu

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

(quoting from DCP's reply to td873)
That doesn't mean that you aren't ultimately better off doing things the right way, just that you have to work past your built in compensations that you have used for ages doing things the wrong way.

who says looking at the CB last is the wrong way? like i've said, when the 11th Commandment says "Thou Shalt Look At Thine OB Last" then i will believe its absolutely tee-totally wrong to do so.

until then, from what i've gathered from everyone, most feel the majority look at the OB last, but some still look at the CB last. just a personal preference thing. i dont think anyone has ever said its "Wrong" to look at the CB last.

DCP

p.s. i've emailed Allison, Ewa & Ralf, asking for their thoughts.

 

[JoeyInCali]

who says looking at the CB last is the wrong way? like i've said, when the 11th Commandment says "Thou Shalt Look At Thine OB Last" then i will believe its absolutely tee-totally wrong to do so.

until then, from what i've gathered from everyone, most feel the majority look at the OB last, but some still look at the CB last. just a personal preference thing. i dont think anyone has ever said its "Wrong" to look at the CB last.

DCP

p.s. i've emailed Allison & Ralf, asking for their thoughts.

How does LAST work?
When is that LAST look?
Before the tip hits the cueball or before you pull the cue last?
If you are already bridged right and have practice stroked on that spot, why look at it before the tip hits hit? If your stroke is off, you wouldn't correct it on the last stroke?
I still think staring where the cueball has to be upon contact on the last stroke and after the cueball has travelled is a good practice.

 

[ShootingArts]

over 90% of people including every instructor weighing in

who says looking at the CB last is the wrong way? like i've said, when the 11th Commandment says "Thou Shalt Look At Thine OB Last" then i will believe its absolutely tee-totally wrong to do so.

I think this is pure fabrication. If and when the eleventh commandment is handed down and says "Thou Shalt Look At Thine OB Last" you will be saying "So what does God know? I don't see him winning any big events! I'm going hunt other opinions that might agree with me. If one person does, that will prove I know more than God."

The instructors you invested time and money in have told you and given you documentation indicating looking at the cue ball last is wrong. The vast majority of players weighing in and every instructor posting has told you it is wrong.

I have learned that the way to win at anything is to first learn what the other competitors know and then try to build from there. I once thought going my own way to begin with would shorten the curve to success but I found that trying to break new ground every inch of the way I might never reach the level of my fellow competitors much less surpass them. I have countless wins over the last forty years and hold a few records here and there. A major reason for that is that I quit trying to reinvent the wheel at an early age and just focused on making it a little bit rounder.

I forgot that lesson a few years back when I started competing in a new arena and a friend that is a many times world champion, hall of famer, and who has held the current world record for several decades sent me an e-mail that simply said, "I'm sure when you get through reinventing the wheel it will be rounder and better than ever!" I read it, laughed ruefully, rubbed the large dent in the top of my head, and sent an e-mail back thanking him most sincerely for the humor and the reminder.

Hu

 

[td873]

like i've said, when the 11th Commandment says "Thou Shalt Look At Thine OB Last" then i will believe its absolutely tee-totally wrong to do so.
[...]
noble idea. but i know for certain my success rate looking at the CB last will certainly be higher

You keep misplacing your arguments. Just do the experiment and be done with it. If your results favor looking at the CB last, good, let it be and just move on. No one is forcing you to look at the OB last. Just do what works for you.

But to keep implying that some God given edict must be handed down only emphasizes that you are not really trying to resolve the issue, rather you are trying to justify your method. Simply put, it has nothing to do with commandments, just results.

Stop the rhetoric already.

p.s. i've emailed Allison, Ewa & Ralf, asking for their thoughts.

Why? You just said you don't need anyone to tell you what is right or wrong, so what will these opinion do for you? Besides, we know what Allision does -> she has an extended pause where she shifts her eyes to the OB. What more do you need?

Testing while already expecting a certain result is almost certainly doomed to be worthless. Although I respect td873 a great deal I'm not sure a short term test would work anyway but it is worth trying without bias. With the hours you spend spinning your wheels on this forum, is one hour of your time so valuable that you can't open your mind and spend an hour applying his test?

Hu,
My suggestion had an alterior motive -> if he did the test, he would either justify his method or figure out looking at the OB last was better. Either way, he would have a definitive result and would drop the issue As you succinctly pointed out, after the hour of testing, he could simply let this issue die its slow and painful death, lol.

-td