"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

don't use inside english

Luxury said:
I'm a huge fan of CJ's and I'm also a huge fan of pocketing balls with outside english. I'll admit that I was in a chat with a guy that was advocating using inside english on a lot of shots and me and another guy were clowning him. He kept saying that CJ would reveal soon and I thought he was plumb loco.

Wherever you are dude, I apologize. I still like the idea of using outside but until I've seen the video, I have to admit that guy was not a troll like I had thought.
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Remember, you don't use inside english, it's a "touch of inside," just try not to spin it. There are times when you will allow the ball to spin, however this is usually just if you 're going to a rail and want to change the angle {coming off the rail}.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Remember, you don't use inside english, it's a "touch of inside," just try not to spin it. There are times when you will allow the ball to spin, however this is usually just if you 're going to a rail and want to change the angle {coming off the rail}.
Click to expand...

I get it. I was making balls and some of the time I wouldn't even see the inside english take. When I went back to center ball I had a tendency to accidentally put outside on the cue ball for the miss.

Excited.
 
An example

CJ Wiley said:
A "hair" of deflection will alter the path up to a half ball on a full table shot depending on the speed you hit it. On full table shots I reduce the amount of TOI I use in half and on some conditions even more that that.

Yes, Mike certainly knows this as well, but he does it with outside, not inside. This is similar to a golfer that "fades" the ball compared to a golfer that "draws" the ball (if you play golf this concept is basic). In golf a "draw" has spin that makes it fly right to left, it will fly lower and also farther....it also rolls further. The "fade" will fly left to right, it flies higher and lands softer....the wind also influences it more.

NO Golfer tries to hit a straight ball every time, especially with longer shots, it's not only more difficult, it also requires you aim at the target and that takes away the "target zone" used to maximize margin of error.

This may sound complicated if you don't play golf and it is.....just like my TOI system may sound complicated, and it is if you don't have experience in maximizing margin of error. Pool is like a miniature version of golf in some ways, especially when talking about angles, zones, and spins used to maximize margin of error.

Sigel would be like a golfer that fades the ball and I'm like a golfer that draws the ball. His works really well on new cloth and tournament conditions, mine works better on worn cloth and "pool room" conditions. These are the subtle differences and both are effective.

My position is if you learn the Touch of Inside you will learn a vast array of shots that you've never experienced before and the "pocket zone" becomes very evident if you commit to using it for a few hours. Most players already spin the ball with outside, but now in the same way Sigel does it. He's using a quick, piercing spin and constantly guarding against "skidding" the ball.

He's rarely going to cue over more than a tip and usually just a "touch of outside" which makes his approach and mine similar in nature. Watch the video below and you'll see a slight difference in how we cue the ball, however, for the most part we are rarely cuing the ball more than a "touch" over from center, but always using the spin/deflection to give us the bigger "pocket zone". MIKE SIGEL vs CJ Wiley
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A note of support for TOI.
( I don't know CJ Wiley personally, but have used something similar to TOI in my life-experience of pool.)

That said; I use TOI on the shots on the 3 & 4 ball in game 2 in the link you posted below with a very positive result. Using "centerball" in this situation is verry thin, thus a good chance to miss.

That "hair" I think would be almost none- 1/4 -1/2 stick MAX

JMHO :)
 
CJ Wiley said:
Hey there Eric, I know you just pretend to sleep with "one eye open" :wink:

You heard Johnny and I talk about this quite a bit in London one night. He has incorporated the TOI on his longer shots, especially off the rail. It told him that was always the advantage I had on him and he agreed. He does SO many things great that incorporating the TOI has made him even stronger (in his "prime years").

There's 3 basic "themes" of how the greatest players play and I've never represented that the TOI is anything but one of those 3. I do believe all the greatest players throw the object ball more than you (or maybe even they) realize.
Someone has to be able to completely control/judge spin and deflection to be a champion and once you learn it you "Real Eyes" that it's quite an advantage to utilize it in executing many shots.
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could you describe the 3 themes
thanks
 
Which of CJ's DVD's explain TOI and the three pocket system the fullest.

Thanks....Tommy
 
CJ Wiley said:
There's many ways to look at it, and ultimately what works for you is the "right way". I come from a background of a lot of other sports so I look at it like "draw and fade" in golf or "slice and topspin" in tennis.

The spin gives you more of a margin of error, just like the way the pros throw a bowling ball. You will never see a pro bowler throw a staight ball, a pro golfer hit a straight drive or a pro tennis player hit a staight 2nd serve. They know how to generate the margin for error and we can plainly see it. In pool, it's a "minature version" and not easily seen.

Many players have been playing for 30 years and still couldn't see it until it was pointed out.
'The Game is the Teacher'
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I like the way you stated that the spin gives u larger margin of error. Ur dead on.. thank u . This is the kind of stuff that makes me money. . Ordering. All ur videos today. The ability to know what u do natrauly is powerful wepon.
 
I've watched a lot of great pool. While I’m not a great player I do believe my eyes work about as good anybodies.

One conclusion I have drawn about truly great players is they don't hesitate to hit the cue ball anywhere they need to. To imply that someone like Efren employs this TOI technique is laughable. The guy sees the shot and uses whatever portion of the cue ball he needs to get himself to the next shot. This is not debatable. This is what Earl does as well. It's what every great player I've ever watched does.

Some people on here are seeing positive results with this technique. Why would that be? I think this is rather simple - we all tend to take center ball for granted. You see a shot and you think to yourself this is just a simple center ball shot and you go ahead and fire it in. However, when you use English, I think there's a tendency to pay more attention to the cue ball. With the TOI technique, you take it a step further; you're using a fraction of a fraction of English (if you are doing it as described). This minuscule amount of English is really helping you dial in to a specific spot on the cue ball. Something you should do all the time but don't.

So, would using this TOI technique be helpful when it comes to pocketing balls? It’s quite possible that it would be, but only because it’s forcing you to focus on the cue ball more than you normally do. But what about when you need to use outside English – you know the other 50 plus percent of shots? I’m all for having as many tools in your bag as possible, but do you really want to incorporate this TOI technique into your game for a set number of shots, then when you have to shoot anything other than inside English you have to go through a completely different checklist in your mind before shooting? On the surface, that doesn’t seem to be too productive.

To me, it seems like if you can’t consistently hit center ball, you should work on consistently hitting center ball. Some things in life are simple. I think this is one of them.
 
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CJ, you say these 2 techniques you and Mike use are the same in many ways. I find it hard to agree with this when we know outside cancels out most contact throw. I dont know for sure, but I dont think Mike aims for a pocket point instead of the center. Not saying what you do doesnt work, just that these 2 methods dont seem similar. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you are using throw to make the ball. I know a guy who plays very well using this method.

Then I consider what you say about how nobody can really hit where they want to. "All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not." If this were true, nobody would be able to draw a ball straight back, they would always draw back on an angle. I also cant help but think that if this were true, most of us would mis-stroke consistently(slightly left or right).

I'm still reading and learning, so this post is not meant to be negative.

CJ Wiley said:
A "hair" of deflection will alter the path up to a half ball on a full table shot depending on the speed you hit it. On full table shots I reduce the amount of TOI I use in half and on some conditions even more that that.

Yes, Mike certainly knows this as well, but he does it with outside, not inside. This is similar to a golfer that "fades" the ball compared to a golfer that "draws" the ball (if you play golf this concept is basic). In golf a "draw" has spin that makes it fly right to left, it will fly lower and also farther....it also rolls further. The "fade" will fly left to right, it flies higher and lands softer....the wind also influences it more.

NO Golfer tries to hit a straight ball every time, especially with longer shots, it's not only more difficult, it also requires you aim at the target and that takes away the "target zone" used to maximize margin of error.

This may sound complicated if you don't play golf and it is.....just like my TOI system may sound complicated, and it is if you don't have experience in maximizing margin of error. Pool is like a miniature version of golf in some ways, especially when talking about angles, zones, and spins used to maximize margin of error.

Sigel would be like a golfer that fades the ball and I'm like a golfer that draws the ball. His works really well on new cloth and tournament conditions, mine works better on worn cloth and "pool room" conditions. These are the subtle differences and both are effective.

My position is if you learn the Touch of Inside you will learn a vast array of shots that you've never experienced before and the "pocket zone" becomes very evident if you commit to using it for a few hours. Most players already spin the ball with outside, but now in the same way Sigel does it. He's using a quick, piercing spin and constantly guarding against "skidding" the ball.

He's rarely going to cue over more than a tip and usually just a "touch of outside" which makes his approach and mine similar in nature. Watch the video below and you'll see a slight difference in how we cue the ball, however, for the most part we are rarely cuing the ball more than a "touch" over from center, but always using the spin/deflection to give us the bigger "pocket zone". MIKE SIGEL vs CJ Wiley
Click to expand...
 
BasementDweller said:
I've watched a lot of great pool. While I’m not a great player I do believe my eyes work about as good anybodies.

One conclusion I have drawn about truly great players is they don't hesitate to hit the cue ball anywhere they need to. To imply that someone like Efren employs this TOI technique is laughable. The guy sees the shot and uses whatever portion of the cue ball he needs to get himself to the next shot. This is not debatable. This is what Earl does as well. It's what every great player I've ever watched does.

Some people on here are seeing positive results with this technique. Why would that be? I think this is rather simple - we all tend to take center ball for granted. You see a shot and you think to yourself this is just a simple center ball shot and you go ahead and fire it in. However, when you use English, I think there's a tendency to pay more attention to the cue ball. With the TOI technique, you take it a step further; you're using a fraction of a fraction of English (if you are doing it as described). This minuscule amount of English is really helping you dial in to a specific spot on the cue ball. Something you should do all the time but don't.

So, would using this TOI technique be helpful when it comes to pocketing balls? It’s quite possible that it would be, but only because it’s forcing you to focus on the cue ball more than you normally do. But what about when you need to use outside English – you know the other 50 plus percent of shots? I’m all for having as many tools in your bag as possible, but do you really want to incorporate this TOI technique into your game for a set number of shots, then when you have to shoot anything other than inside English you have to go through a completely different checklist in your mind before shooting? On the surface, that doesn’t seem to be too productive.

To me, it seems like if you can’t consistently hit center ball, you should work on consistently hitting center ball. Some things in life are simple. I think this is one of them.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read this thread (and when I read prior TOI threads). The beneficial effect is that it makes you cue more precisely, not because of any inherent benefit of hitting with a particular amount of sidespin.
 
I'm only here to help, not force you to do something that makes you feel "funny"

BasementDweller said:
I've watched a lot of great pool. While I’m not a great player I do believe my eyes work about as good anybodies.

One conclusion I have drawn about truly great players is they don't hesitate to hit the cue ball anywhere they need to. To imply that someone like Efren employs this TOI technique is laughable. The guy sees the shot and uses whatever portion of the cue ball he needs to get himself to the next shot. This is not debatable. This is what Earl does as well. It's what every great player I've ever watched does.

Some people on here are seeing positive results with this technique. Why would that be? I think this is rather simple - we all tend to take center ball for granted. You see a shot and you think to yourself this is just a simple center ball shot and you go ahead and fire it in. However, when you use English, I think there's a tendency to pay more attention to the cue ball. With the TOI technique, you take it a step further; you're using a fraction of a fraction of English (if you are doing it as described). This minuscule amount of English is really helping you dial in to a specific spot on the cue ball. Something you should do all the time but don't.

So, would using this TOI technique be helpful when it comes to pocketing balls? It’s quite possible that it would be, but only because it’s forcing you to focus on the cue ball more than you normally do. But what about when you need to use outside English – you know the other 50 plus percent of shots? I’m all for having as many tools in your bag as possible, but do you really want to incorporate this TOI technique into your game for a set number of shots, then when you have to shoot anything other than inside English you have to go through a completely different checklist in your mind before shooting? On the surface, that doesn’t seem to be too productive.

To me, it seems like if you can’t consistently hit center ball, you should work on consistently hitting center ball. Some things in life are simple. I think this is one of them.
Click to expand...

You make a good point, HOWEVER, it seems you are overlooking the key reasons I encourage "mastering a particular shot". Yes, I can hit any part of the cue ball I need to, and can put any type of spin on the cue ball. I've said countless times and people on here that have followed my posts will agree I've probably said it 50 times "I do NOT use Inside english and that's NOT what TOI is" - Using Inside English all the time would be a VERY negative thing to do.

If this were the case it would be called "inside spin" not "Touch of Inside". The technique I suggest gives you a different type of "Touch," and only encourages you to hit a "hair" to the inside with NO attempt to spin the cue ball at all.

If you think you can consistently hit center ball then set up the cue ball on the head spot, hit it firmly to the middle diamond and see how many times out of 100 you can make it come exactly straight back. If you can do this every time and that's the style you want to play then I'm not sure what you're searching for? You are officially the greatest pool player on earth.:wink:

The TOI technique is about creating a way to maximize margin of error. Without spin or deflection this isn't possible, and it also wouldn't be possible if the pocket was the same size as the object ball. You would have to hit it exactly in the center of the pocket with no room for error. This is not the case, the pocket is twice (in most cases) as big as the ball and this leaves you a "margin of error".

Throwing the ball slightly with either spin or deflection allows you to align to one side of the pocket and "work" the ball to the middle. If you "work" it too much it will still go in the outer side of the pocket. This is the basics of the '3 Part Pocket System' and it is brutally effective (I do speak from experience).

It's just like in golf when a player "draws" or "fades" the ball every chance they get and "works" the ball towards their target. Is this because they can't hit other type spins? Of course not, it's because they have confidence in that particular shot and feel like they can count on it EVERY DAY. Can you count on your game every day?

At the top levels of pool and other games/sports you must master a "themed" shot (with many "variations") that you can count on or it's impossible to perform at the world class level day in and day out. You will see this is in golf, tennis, pitching, bowling, football, ping pong and yes, pool's no different, you can (if you choose) use spin and/or deflection to increase your target zone. If you choose not to we can still be friends. :cool: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
thin cut on ob on rail TOI

CJ i got your new cd and i have been using your touch of inside and will never get away from using it it totaly works for me. still working on different shots with it one is a thin cut shot with ob on rail using a TOI and dont want to scratch in the corner pocket. also it makes you commit to the shot always with aceleration and a straight stroke if you can learn one thing from a teacher a cd ect it will always pay for itself thanks again cant wait for lesson in the st louis area.

PS just dont bring 20,000.00 to st louis the cops might take it thinking its drug money LOL
314-374-8830 OSCAR
 
If this sounds "to good to be true," you haven't seen nothing yet.

TSW said:
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read this thread (and when I read prior TOI threads). The beneficial effect is that it makes you cue more precisely, not because of any inherent benefit of hitting with a particular amount of sidespin.
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The TOI technique is much more than just "cuing the ball precisely," although you are correct, it is important. The Cue Ball is the target in pool, not the object ball, so the object ball just "reflects" how you hit the Cue Ball.

There are a few ways to "aim" or "create angles" in pool. The most common one is to aim a part of the cue ball at a part of the object ball and try to hit it. This is the most common and it works, however you decide to "aim," whether by a system, by feel or by instinct.

The TOI technique I use creates angles a different way. It uses where you cue the Cue Ball relative to a consistent target on the object ball (either the edge or the center).

This means I'm not aiming at a "contact point," instead I'm CREATING the angle by moving the tip to the same side (inside) as I'm cutting the ball. If I"m cutting the ball to the right, I move the cue slightly to the right of center, if I"m cutting the ball to the left I move the tip slightly to the LEFT of center.

If you want to experiment with what I"m saying try this "for the sake of science." Put the Cue Ball on the head spot and the Object Ball on the foot spot. If you hit "center to center," with a center ball hit you will drive the OB straight into the rail and it will come back and hit the cue ball again (if hit perfectly).

Now, go down and aim it center to center again, but this time move the cue slightly to the right (MAKE sure to move the whole cue, don't "pivot" or just turn your tip). Hit the ball like you did {as if} it was straight in and it will cut the ball slightly to the right. Do it again and move the cue further to the right, hit it and you will see that it cuts the Object Ball further to the right (creating more angle).

Now set up a shot that is a slight cut, get down like it was straight in and move the cue slightly in the same direction of the cut and hit it. If you undercut the shot move over more on the cue ball, if you overcut it move over less from center.

This is how you calibrate the TOI and tune it in to start creating angles. My new video goes over this in detail and I explain things about the TOI Technique that I haven't even tried to explain in this Forum. This Technique is brutally strong and when you master it you will become a feared shotmaker. If this sounds "to good to be true," you haven't seen nothing yet. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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BasementDweller said:
Okay, I read your thread. It was interesting but I didn't see your final conclusion. What did you decide on?
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After 4 years since starting that thread, my conclusion is that washing your balls regularly makes the game easier/simpler. :D
 
CJ Wiley said:
The TOI technique is much more than just "cuing the ball precisely," although you are correct, it is important. The Cue Ball is the target in pool, not the object ball, so the object ball just "reflects" how you hit the Cue Ball.

There are a few ways to "aim" or "create angles" in pool. The most common one is to aim a part of the cue ball at a part of the object ball and try to hit it. This is the most common and it works, however you decide to "aim," whether by a system, by feel or by instinct.

The TOI technique I use creates angles a different way. It uses where you cue the Cue Ball relative to a consistent target on the object ball (either the edge or the center).

This means I'm not aiming at a "contact point," instead I'm CREATING the angle by moving the tip to the same side (inside) as I'm cutting the ball. If I"m cutting the ball to the right, I move the cue slightly to the right of center, if I"m cutting the ball to the left I move the tip slightly to the LEFT of center.

If you want to experiment with what I"m saying try this "for the sake of science." Put the Cue Ball on the head spot and the Object Ball on the foot spot. If you hit "center to center," with a center ball hit you will drive the OB straight into the rail and it will come back and hit the cue ball again (if hit perfectly).

Now, go down and aim it center to center again, but this time move the cue slightly to the right (MAKE sure to move the whole cue, don't "pivot" or just turn your tip). Hit the ball like you did {as if} it was straight in and it will cut the ball slightly to the right. Do it again and move the cue further to the right, hit it and you will see that it cuts the Object Ball further to the right (creating more angle).

Now set up a shot that is a slight cut, get down like it was straight in and move the cue slightly in the same direction of the cut and hit it. If you undercut the shot move over more on the cue ball, if you overcut it move over less from center.

This is how you calibrate the TOI and tune it in to start creating angles. My new video goes over this in detail and I explain things about the TOI Technique that I haven't even tried to explain in this Forum. This Technique is brutally strong and when you master it you will become a feared shotmaker. If this sounds "to good to be true," you haven't seen nothing yet. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'
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CJ,

Thanks for responding. I'm a doubter that TOI makes things easier but I will give this a try next time I get to a table (which may not be for a few days).

Even though I'm skeptical, I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain your approach.

- Geoff
 
This the first and foremost thing you MUST do

TSW said:
CJ,

Thanks for responding. I'm a doubter that TOI makes things easier but I will give this a try next time I get to a table (which may not be for a few days).

Even though I'm skeptical, I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain your approach.

- Geoff
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No problem Geoff, I"m happy to be able to share this with you. Just to be clear, this technique is not for everyone, and if you don't use it I'm certain you'll find something that does work for you.

Whatever system you choose (even if it's the "instinct system") make sure you're hitting the cue ball precisely, it is the primary target and essential to play your personal best.

The main thing is to develop a routine that puts your body into a position to hit the cue ball straight and precise every time. This the first and foremost thing you MUST do to enable any type system or technique to be get you consistent results.
 
If you want to book any lessons cj@cjwiley.com is the best way.

oscar said:
CJ i got your new cd and i have been using your touch of inside and will never get away from using it it totaly works for me. still working on different shots with it one is a thin cut shot with ob on rail using a TOI and dont want to scratch in the corner pocket. also it makes you commit to the shot always with aceleration and a straight stroke if you can learn one thing from a teacher a cd ect it will always pay for itself thanks again cant wait for lesson in the st louis area.

PS just dont bring 20,000.00 to st louis the cops might take it thinking its drug money LOL
314-374-8830 OSCAR
Click to expand...

I'm glad you're finding success with the TOI and blending your shot speed, shot angles and committing to precise "cuing". I would like to give you 20k in lessons, but I only take checks for that amount, there's "stick up men" out there looking for big gamblers. Dippy Dave told me all about it.

If you want to book any lessons cj@cjwiley.com is the best way.
 
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