If I claimed you'd make more shots by jacking up with maximum sidespin every time would you need to try it to know if it's true? The spurious claims made about how these systems work are equally obvious - just not to everybody.
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"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
pj
chgo
vapoolplayer -- I think CJ has misread what you stated and wrongly said that it is correct. This may have happened because he often misuses the standard term "throw" when he means cue-ball deflection or squirt.
Anyway, for cutting an OB to the right, CJ's TOI/3-part-pocket method is to initially aim the OB to the full or undercut side of the pocket. For a cut to the right, that is the left side of the pocket, not the right. Then he cues the CB slightly to the right of center and squirts it slightly to the left in order to send the OB (if all goes as planned) into the center of the pocket. If he hits the CB a bit to the left of his intended tip-contact point, the CB squirts less than planned and the OB goes into the left side of the pocket. If he hits the CB a bit to the right of his intended tip-contact point, the CB squirts more than planned and the OB goes into the right side of the pocket. If he hits a lot left or right of the intended tip-contact point, or if his initial (full-side) aim was wrong, he may miss.
Your statement was predicated on the effects of throw. With inside english, both spin-induced throw and cut-induced throw are working in the same direction -- to reduce the angle of the cut. So that's probably why you thought the initial aim for a cut to the right would be to the far right side of the pocket. But CJ's method essentially ignores throw or views it as inconsequential. CJ views his TOI as just "inside," not inside english, because it does not produce much spin (as he perceives it). The key to his method is squirting the CB into a thinner hit on the OB than would occur with the initial aim and a center-CB hit.
Hope that helps.
CJ,
Why did you pick TOI as the shot to master?
Why not TOO?
Why did you pick TOI as the shot to master?
Why not TOO?
On his recent DVD, CJ put a number to his TOI -- 1/8th of a tip (and by "tip" I imagine he meant the full cue tip width rather than just the (smaller) tip contact patch). Since most tips are about 1/2" in width, 1/8th of that is just 1/16". Do you believe that most good players' strokes are always accurate within 1/16"?
I've been wondering when BHE would be brought into the discussion. For a good many shots, if one bridges at the shaft's natural pivot point and then strokes crooked -- unintended back-hand english -- the CB still tracks on the intended line of the shot. So if the initial aim was sound, the ball still goes in. Your comment about speed of shot does have some validity in this, however. So does CB/OB separation.
But, now, compare the difficulty of sending the CB on its intended path in the manner just described (bridging at the pivot point and planning to hit center CB) versus using a TOI at varying CB/OB separations. For example, let's assume the two balls are 2 feet apart and we are cutting the OB to the right. Further assume that we need to squirt the CB some small amount over that 2-foot distance, let's say 3/32", to pocket the OB center pocket using TOI. Assume we do that perfectly.
Now move the CB back 2 more feet, but on the same line to the full-hit-ghost-ball position as for our shorter shot. Now we need to squirt the CB 3/32" over the 4-foot distance. Will the same CB hit (contact point, cue stick angle, shot speed) do that? Won't the CB deflect a lot more over 4 feet than it did over 2 feet? Do we have to worry about swerve yet? Do we now need to squerve it 3/32"?
Now move the CB back 2 more feet on that same line. Now we need to move the CB 3/32" to the left over a 6-foot distance. Surely swerve is coming into play by now. Will the same hit on the CB work?
To use the TOI/3-part pocket system do we have to become cueing savants to get the net effect of squirt and swerve to put the CB in the right position at all the possible different distances between CB and OB? Can simply angling the cue a fixed, small amount (rather than holding it as level as possible) accomplish that?
Does TOI really simplify life? I see it as potentially highly beneficial for its effects on the CB after collision, if one prefers to play position in that manner, but I'm not yet sold on its other claimed benefits. I look forward to hearing more in CJ's TOI video.
Bowlers aim for the 1-3 pocket (or the 1-2 pocket for left-handers) because that's where they have the best chance to knock down all the pins. A straight ball at the head pin (1-pin) is apt to leave a split.
This is how to develop the "TOUCH," from the inside not the outside
Because the part of the cue ball that is aligned to the object ball (to create the angle) is located to the inside of the cue ball, not the outside (is you look at the balls like they're flat (2 Dimensional).
Also, I want the cue ball to be moving away from the ball, not in to {the cue ball} at contact. When you use "outside English," you have to make sure to spin it to make it "spin back (after it deflects)," and not undercut the shot.
Champion players you will notice seldom undercut their shots. Undercutting the shot is also referred to as "dogging it," therefore I want to take the undercut OUT of the equation and "IF" the ball doesn't go in, it will over cut. This is how to develop the "TOUCH," from the inside, not the outside.
Because the part of the cue ball that is aligned to the object ball (to create the angle) is located to the inside of the cue ball, not the outside (is you look at the balls like they're flat (2 Dimensional).
Also, I want the cue ball to be moving away from the ball, not in to {the cue ball} at contact. When you use "outside English," you have to make sure to spin it to make it "spin back (after it deflects)," and not undercut the shot.
Champion players you will notice seldom undercut their shots. Undercutting the shot is also referred to as "dogging it," therefore I want to take the undercut OUT of the equation and "IF" the ball doesn't go in, it will over cut. This is how to develop the "TOUCH," from the inside, not the outside.
I'm looking forward to TOI instructional material. Would be really great if examples of lots of shots to use it with and shots not to use it with were included.
My question is on lengthier shots if the shooter errs, putting more inside on the cue ball, wouldn't the deflection wear off and start to curve (especially with an elevated cue, shooting off the rail) and cause an undercut?
My question is on lengthier shots if the shooter errs, putting more inside on the cue ball, wouldn't the deflection wear off and start to curve (especially with an elevated cue, shooting off the rail) and cause an undercut?
See what happens.....did you make it?
Yes, it will deflect more at longer distances. Try this: Set up a spot shot and put the cue ball on the foot spot. This is more than a half ball hit, is this correct (more than 30*)?
Now if you're cutting the shot to the right, get down as if you are cutting a "half ball" shot, only go in to the right a half tip (keeping your cue straight).
Now just hit it like it's still a half ball hit with that "Touch of Inside" (one half tip to the right. See what happens.....did you make it?
I align to center or edge with my eyes and go over to the Inside until it "feels right," then hit the cue ball. This is a feel that you develop to play pool, no one can do it for you. You MUST calibrate your own shot using the TOI and based on your shot speed (it must accelerate).
That's why players that don't use TOI at least three straight hours have no idea how it will work. It's like magic, however, it's a real phenomenon, and it's easier to create the angles using this method than any other I"ve ever used. The key is being willing to experience it....no different than many other things in life. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, it will deflect more at longer distances. Try this: Set up a spot shot and put the cue ball on the foot spot. This is more than a half ball hit, is this correct (more than 30*)?
Now if you're cutting the shot to the right, get down as if you are cutting a "half ball" shot, only go in to the right a half tip (keeping your cue straight).
Now just hit it like it's still a half ball hit with that "Touch of Inside" (one half tip to the right. See what happens.....did you make it?
I align to center or edge with my eyes and go over to the Inside until it "feels right," then hit the cue ball. This is a feel that you develop to play pool, no one can do it for you. You MUST calibrate your own shot using the TOI and based on your shot speed (it must accelerate).
That's why players that don't use TOI at least three straight hours have no idea how it will work. It's like magic, however, it's a real phenomenon, and it's easier to create the angles using this method than any other I"ve ever used. The key is being willing to experience it....no different than many other things in life. 'The Game is the Teacher'
This will take some "Kentucky Windage" to "tune it in
Yes, that's why I've always said you make a point NOT to spin the cue ball. The "Touch of Inside" is also something that works with the eyes to create the angle of the shot. It's not all deflection, it's also cuing the ball INSIDE, where the cue ball will contact the object ball to make it.
However I only line it up to center object ball or edge. You can easily tell which it is depending on how you miss it in practice. This will take some "Kentucky Windage" to "tune it in," to accommodate your stroke and speed. It you spin it you will undercut it.
Yes, that's why I've always said you make a point NOT to spin the cue ball. The "Touch of Inside" is also something that works with the eyes to create the angle of the shot. It's not all deflection, it's also cuing the ball INSIDE, where the cue ball will contact the object ball to make it.
However I only line it up to center object ball or edge. You can easily tell which it is depending on how you miss it in practice. This will take some "Kentucky Windage" to "tune it in," to accommodate your stroke and speed. It you spin it you will undercut it.
Thanks for sharing your secret
Thanks for sharing your secret to playing how you do. It all makes perfect sense to me now.
Thanks for sharing your secret to playing how you do. It all makes perfect sense to me now.
Thank you. My mentor turned me on to your first instructional VHS 10 years ago and today I told him about TOI and how I will be getting the DVD. He was excited. It's gonna go full circle.
Yes, much more than 30 degrees.
So that's a shot that you have calibrated to require 1/2 tip of inside with your cue angle and speed of stroke. But 1/2 tip is much more than you have been talking about as a TOI; it really is inside english. And an initial half-ball aim on that spot shot is way outside the pocket. So what you have described here may be a way to make that shot, but it doesn't fit in your TOI/3-part pocket description. And long shots at other distances and angles would require "calibrations" different from half-ball-aim/half-tip-english. Whew!
All angles connect to the inside of the cue ball.
Again, don't spin the cue ball....it's a NO SPIN shot (as far as what you try to do)....and of course it still have a bit of spin, just don't try to spin it.
Don't read anything into what was said, it's very simple. I just wanted you to experience what the deflection did from that distance. It creates an angle, I was just curious what angle it created for you. I know the answer, you would have to actually shoot it to tell. All angles connect to the inside of the cue ball.
The answer is - It would over cut by a half diamond (app.). Now go over a half tip to the inside and hit a "half ball shot" (just move the cue ball over a diamond from the foot spot, with the object ball still on the spot) aiming it like it's straight in.....what happens?
Again, don't spin the cue ball....it's a NO SPIN shot (as far as what you try to do)....and of course it still have a bit of spin, just don't try to spin it.
Don't read anything into what was said, it's very simple. I just wanted you to experience what the deflection did from that distance. It creates an angle, I was just curious what angle it created for you. I know the answer, you would have to actually shoot it to tell. All angles connect to the inside of the cue ball.
The answer is - It would over cut by a half diamond (app.). Now go over a half tip to the inside and hit a "half ball shot" (just move the cue ball over a diamond from the foot spot, with the object ball still on the spot) aiming it like it's straight in.....what happens?
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Click This Link - CJ Wiley Introduces the Touch Of Inside Technique
The Touch Of Inside Video is 99% done and we're waiting on the producer's approval to download into the PPV Format.
Here is the introduction to my TOI Video, describing what demonstrations you will see, and why the results will give your Game a distinct advantage. Click This Link - CJ Wiley Introduces the Touch Of Inside Technique
The Touch Of Inside Video is 99% done and we're waiting on the producer's approval to download into the PPV Format.
Here is the introduction to my TOI Video, describing what demonstrations you will see, and why the results will give your Game a distinct advantage. Click This Link - CJ Wiley Introduces the Touch Of Inside Technique
Not knocking it, but I didnt get much out of that video. This still sounds like using contact throw to pocket the ball. Even if that works well for pocketing, you will need other types of cue ball hits to keep yourself in line. If not, you would have to sacrifice position. No pro I've seen plays that way.
I also think that if I accidentally hit center instead of TOI, I'm gonna get a different reaction, a different object ball path and contact point. Therefore, its not as if using TOI could increase ones margin of error. Nobody can play consistent pro pool without hitting thier intended cue ball mark.
I also think that if I accidentally hit center instead of TOI, I'm gonna get a different reaction, a different object ball path and contact point. Therefore, its not as if using TOI could increase ones margin of error. Nobody can play consistent pro pool without hitting thier intended cue ball mark.
Not entirely correct. Mike Souchack (spelling?) hit perfectly straight drives every shot. I know because I followed him around for 18 holes. There are others too, I just can't think of any right now.
Years ago I used to hit perfectly straight drives every shot. I was able to get the clubhead through with not much outside or inside action, except when I wanted to hook or fade the ball.
'Square-to-square' methods also taught swinging the club head straight through the ball.
Most pros try to get a slight draw on the shot because of the topspin induced. Some prefer a slight fade for super control. The golf swing is not very comparable to billiards unless you are talkng about following through properly.
Regards, WW
CJ is just trying to make a point, not analyze the golf swing. He's equating "working" the golfball to make the target bigger, to pool and using TOI.
"perfectly straight drives, every shot" ... sounds like "Iron Byron".
Yes, I enjoy golf too and used to play a lot with Johnny A., Earl S., and Kim D. We played just about every tournament at various courses for years. We said Archer could "get it up and down out of a trash can" :thumbup:
There are a high percentage of pros that hit a fade too. The fade is easier to control and lands softer - they don't need the added distance generally.
I worked a lot with Hank Haney before he started working with TW. He mentions some of our conversations in his new book about training TW as a matter of fact. Hank discovered some powerful golf techniques studying Hogan and Byron Nelson. They both grew up a few miles from here.
"perfectly straight drives, every shot" ... sounds like "Iron Byron".
Hank really likes pool and we played a lot, I traded him pool lessons for golf lessons. We discovered many similarities between the two games. One of these days I'll go into detail about this experience.
Yes, I enjoy golf too and used to play a lot with Johnny A., Earl S., and Kim D. We played just about every tournament at various courses for years. We said Archer could "get it up and down out of a trash can" :thumbup:
There are a high percentage of pros that hit a fade too. The fade is easier to control and lands softer - they don't need the added distance generally.
I worked a lot with Hank Haney before he started working with TW. He mentions some of our conversations in his new book about training TW as a matter of fact. Hank discovered some powerful golf techniques studying Hogan and Byron Nelson. They both grew up a few miles from here.
"perfectly straight drives, every shot" ... sounds like "Iron Byron".
Hank really likes pool and we played a lot, I traded him pool lessons for golf lessons. We discovered many similarities between the two games. One of these days I'll go into detail about this experience.
I'm still glad I caught the tail end of the real action in the late 80s and 90s
Yes, it's amazing to me that it's so unusual to think the pros "work" the ball in pool. I learned this playing on the road with Omaha John and Weldon Rogers. We wanted every advantage possible and increasing the pocket zone was something that seemed like "stacking the deck."
It's noticeable when the bank pool players throw the balls in, and it's happening in regular pool games too. "We only recognize what we're familiar with," is the rule of thumb for top notch gamblers.
I wouldn't divulge these techniques 15-20 years ago, however, I think we can all agree that the gambling is dead and gone in pool. It's sad, but life goes on, I'm still glad I caught the tail end of the real action in the late 80s and early 90s.
I mentioned earlier about "cheating the pocket". The term is used on isolated shots and mainly on "straight in" shots. This is and area that anyone can improve is understanding how to "cheat the pocket" more often, much more often.
With the TOI you will learn to do this on a regular basis to keep from spinning the cue ball excessively. I can do anything with the TOI that someone can do by spinning the ball with the exception of changing the angle off the rail, curve the ball and a few isolated power draw/follow shots. These shots don't come up enough to make a difference, and when they do there's always another type of shot that's available. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Yes, it's amazing to me that it's so unusual to think the pros "work" the ball in pool. I learned this playing on the road with Omaha John and Weldon Rogers. We wanted every advantage possible and increasing the pocket zone was something that seemed like "stacking the deck."
It's noticeable when the bank pool players throw the balls in, and it's happening in regular pool games too. "We only recognize what we're familiar with," is the rule of thumb for top notch gamblers.
I wouldn't divulge these techniques 15-20 years ago, however, I think we can all agree that the gambling is dead and gone in pool. It's sad, but life goes on, I'm still glad I caught the tail end of the real action in the late 80s and early 90s.
I mentioned earlier about "cheating the pocket". The term is used on isolated shots and mainly on "straight in" shots. This is and area that anyone can improve is understanding how to "cheat the pocket" more often, much more often.
With the TOI you will learn to do this on a regular basis to keep from spinning the cue ball excessively. I can do anything with the TOI that someone can do by spinning the ball with the exception of changing the angle off the rail, curve the ball and a few isolated power draw/follow shots. These shots don't come up enough to make a difference, and when they do there's always another type of shot that's available. 'The Game is the Teacher'