Center CB Rules Most Of The Time

[CreeDo]

Good post. And nothing you've written is contradictory to what I wrote.

When John Schmidt says to avoid inside english, you (yes you and you in general) need to pay attention. Because you can't just take it at face value and then report in these news groups that John Schmidt tells us to blanketly avoid inside english. I know he's not. You know he's not.

Freddie <~~~ glad you agreed

Blanketly? You can't just adjectify a word like that!

No, but seriously, I assume we all shoot well enough to know that when he says "Avoid inside", nobody is gonna misinterpret it to mean "Never use it. Ever. I mean that literally. It's like meth. Not even once."

I'm puzzled by your ranty reaction. Nothing in this thread was an especially bold statement or out of line. What's the disagreement? That pros don't really prefer to minimize english? Or maybe that minimizing it isn't as helpful as it sounds on paper?

 

[Donny Lutz]

Excellent response

I don't see anything wrong with a thread like this in the forums. It's a post where someone expresses an opinion about using english on pool shots. It's exactly the kind of thread that belongs in this forum.

As for John Schmidt... he is talking specifically about making long runs in straight pool. Maybe it applies to pool in general, (IMO it does) ...maybe it only applies to straight pool.

But in the video he uses it VERY sparingly, and goes out of his way to comment on the shots where he's using it. If you think that's bullshit, buy the DVD and count how many times he uses it. I bet less than 30-40 balls were hit with anything beyond a hair of inside. And he'll say stuff like "I don't want to use inside here but I had to if I wanted any hope of holding for the break shot, and you can see I almost miss the ball because of it".

John is an analytical player. At one point, he went as far as to say he used spin on a certain shot later in the run, that he wouldn't have earlier... because he knows early in the run the balls are still so clean and slick they won't grab the rail and allow the spin to take as much as he wants. He's a details guy, not one of those pros who just shoots without knowing how he does it. So if he says something like "avoid inside", I'd say pay attention.

As for pros using tons of spin all the time, yes... part of why they're pro is that they can use extreme spin when it's necessary. But what I think johnny is saying is... if you play carefully and correctly, you'll find yourself needing those extreme spins less often. It's nice to have it at your fingertips, but it's even nicer to seldom need it.

As an example... prior to the finals with Earl, Dechaine was shooting pretty sporty in the Ginky Memorial Tournament. He doesn't miss much. A shot came up where he left himself too much angle on a ball. The commentators predicted correctly that he would try to load up with inside and slow spin it in to get back in line. They were leery of that shot, and they were right to be, he missed it by a foot. It just threw a ton. If you watch mike practice you'll see he loves the extreme spin shots, but IMO he would have been better off staying closer to center in that situation. Or ensuring his leave didn't require extreme english.

Excellent, well thought-out response. I hope some of the posters will actually read it!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[PGHteacher]

oops wrong thread

 

[ENGLISH!]

The 2 biggest problems with "hit centerball" advice as opposed to "use tip offset sparingly" is that when you hit centerball the CB is sliding along the cloth (stop/stun) this is also true (at most distances, unless you are quite close) of the hair below center, this shot is also more accurate for most because the more you move the tip down the vertical axis the more the line of sight/tip contact on the CB come together. Also if you are trying to move the CB forward at short distances it is easier (for me) to hit slightly above center so I get natural roll ASAP. That's why I like to say "hit closer to center" rather than "hit center".

I agree. I never, almost never, no, I never hit center cue ball. When U go off center 'on purpose' the out come is more predictable than a
mis-hit center attempt. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ENGLISH!]

In john's schmidt's recent video he has some rules about how to play good straight pool and one of them is "avoid inside english". I thought that was interesting.

Maybe the problem isn't being forced to use sidespin, but specifically being forced to use inside. A touch of outside makes the cut angle more 'natural' (arguably) and outside running english is very commonly used so it feels easy. But inside is unnatural, it's hard to slow roll a ball with inside, it seems to really change where you need to aim, and often it will surprise you with how much or how little the spin takes. It's just less predictable.

IMHO I disagree. But, I'm not 'talking' about straight pool but just shooting the shot for position or... to prevent a scatch. I very often use 'inside' english & prefer to do so when slow rolling. I use both in & outside 'depending on what is 'called' for. I started using more inside when my eye went bad & found that it helped me to ratle less shots. Maybe it just me & my 2 cents.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This thread just highlights what's wrong with forums.

John Schmidt says to avoid inside english. This comes from a guy that uses more soft inside english than anyone in the game!!! So, although his advice is definitely suitable for beginners, he's not a beginner and is a proficient and prolific user of inside english, straight pool or otherwise.

For those of you who say you actually watch the pros and say they stay closer to middle, I call bull$hit. The pros use the most extreme english and still make their shots. That's why they're pros. And they do it a lot.

It astounds me when I hear someone 'watched the pros' and comes up with this line. We can sit side-by-side at any top tournament to disprove this theory. In fact, I've already done a dozen times over with people in forums for over a decade. Truth is truth. Report the truth, not fantasy.

Freddie <~~~ doesn't report anything but observation

I'm no pro but I use some form of 'non-center hit' (english) on every shot & in many cases just inside the envelope of the dreaded mis-cue. The cue ball goes where I tell it it to go... not where it wants to go.

 

[9ball_in_MN]

I'm no pro but I use some form of 'non-center hit' (english) on every shot & in many cases just inside the envelope of the dreaded mis-cue. The cue ball goes where I tell it it to go... not where it wants to go.

that is not smart at all it will not go where you tell it lets see you pull off a soft stop shot doing this

 

[Tokyo-dave]

I've watched and played many world class pros and I've very rarely met anybody that plays at that level that DOESN'T put some kind of juice on nearly every shot. Yep, I've met several that swear that they avoid English as much as possible, yet watch them play for five minutes and see the CB do things that are impossible without juice. Believe it or not, some of the players, expecially old school guys that didn't learn from books and internet teachings actually don't realize how much they're juicing the ball because it's second nature to them.

dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've watched and played many world class pros and I've very rarely met anybody that plays at that level that DOESN'T put some kind of juice on nearly every shot. Yep, I've met several that swear that they avoid English as much as possible, yet watch them play for five minutes and see the CB do things that are impossible without juice. Believe it or not, some of the players, expecially old school guys that didn't learn from books and internet teachings actually don't realize how much they're juicing the ball because it's second nature to them.

dave

I agree. I'm old school & I turned 59 today & have been playing for 46 years.

 

[pt109]

I'm no pro but I use some form of 'non-center hit' (english) on every shot & in many cases just inside the envelope of the dreaded mis-cue. The cue ball goes where I tell it it to go... not where it wants to go.

I just had to open this post...
...the title said, 'Center ball rules most of the time'
...the last poster was 'ENGLISH':wave3:

..so I wasn't all that surprised when he posted in favor of spinning..:smile:

Well, sir, I agree with you.
It is almost impossible to run the table efficiently without 'english'....
....that's how you stay in line...

And it's also why having a cue that suits you is so important....
..if we all hit center-ball, we all could play our best game with house cues

 

[CreeDo]

To be clear, we talking about sidespin only? Or top, bottom, left and right?

It's probably true that pros (and most other players) will put at least a touch of draw or follow on every shot. A little draw for a stop shot rather than firm centerball. A little follow rather than soft centerball.

It's the unnecessary sidespin that I wonder about. Do most players subscribe to the theory that a touch of outside helps compensate for CIT and is worth using on almost every ball? I definitely have that habit though I tried for a while to break it.

One thing that I think is, without question, a bad habit... is unnecessary inside. No offense to anyone who likes to spin 'em in with inside. I think they've just repeated the bad habit enough that they can now make balls with it. But physics-wise it doesn't make any sense to add inside, just to make a ball... because you must overcut the ball a degree or two on purpose, which is gonna screw up how you aim.

 

[Mitchxout]

And it's also why having a cue that suits you is so important....
..if we all hit center-ball, we all could play our best game with house cues

Playing centerball with a house cue is a great asset to have. It teaches you how to use the weight of the cueball and natural angles for position. JArcher and Parica play alot of shots this way.

 

[Joe T]

To be clear, we talking about sidespin only? Or top, bottom, left and right?

It's probably true that pros (and most other players) will put at least a touch of draw or follow on every shot. A little draw for a stop shot rather than firm centerball. A little follow rather than soft centerball.

It's the unnecessary sidespin that I wonder about. Do most players subscribe to the theory that a touch of outside helps compensate for CIT and is worth using on almost every ball? I definitely have that habit though I tried for a while to break it.

One thing that I think is, without question, a bad habit... is unnecessary inside. No offense to anyone who likes to spin 'em in with inside. I think they've just repeated the bad habit enough that they can now make balls with it. But physics-wise it doesn't make any sense to add inside, just to make a ball... because you must overcut the ball a degree or two on purpose, which is gonna screw up how you aim.

Here's what I believe happens and we haven't been trained to really look at. By adding more than just a touch of inside (good spin) we actually reduce the contact induced throw and the balls cut cleanly. Slow rolling a ball with a touch of inside I wouldn't recommend (probably what John Schmidt hates in 14.1). I'm not too crazy about a touch of outside either because I think balls throw most with just a touch of english but if its spinning with a lot of inside or outside I believe it help reduce the cling.

If someone comes to me for lessons you can bet on day 1 I'll have them spinning with inside. Why? Because they're going to need it, it adds options, position paths and takes out scratches, makes them feel more like a pool player, adds confidence and expands their comfort zone, we can always go back to center ball when needed.

Not being able to use spin is a major reason more people don't reach higher levels. They're taught out of context to use center ball as much as possible and they become very attached to it. When they get a little better they start to realize the need for spin for better position BUT they miss and then shy away from spin mostly blaming their errors with the evil stories they've heard about side spin. Every pool player should learn to spin the ball as good as possible and THEN when they are at a high level they can choose to spin or not to spin.

 

[dr_dave]

Here's what I believe happens and we haven't been trained to really look at. By adding more than just a touch of inside (good spin) we actually reduce the contact induced throw and the balls cut cleanly.

You are correct. Throw doesn't reduce much with inside English, but it is a little smaller in general (except at small cut angles or with gearing outside English). The main throw-related advantage of inside English is that the amount of throw is very consistent at all cut angles when inside English is used. All of these effects are illustrated in the graphs here:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo" (BD, February, 2007)​

Also, the inside English resource page has additional useful information

I think balls throw most with just a touch of english...

This depends on the cut angle and the type of English (inside vs. outside). For more info, see the article and resource page.

but if its spinning with a lot of inside or outside I believe it help reduce the cling.

Both throw and cling are reduced by using lots of inside, as described above. And with gearing outside English, both throw and cling can be eliminated completely. However, both throw direction and amount can vary widely with outside English shots with different cut angles and different amounts of spin. For more info, see the outside English resource page.

Not being able to use spin is a major reason more people don't reach higher levels. They're taught out of context to use center ball as much as possible and they become very attached to it. When they get a little better they start to realize the need for spin for better position BUT they miss and then shy away from spin mostly blaming their errors with the evil stories they've heard about side spin. Every pool player should learn to spin the ball as good as possible and THEN when they are at a high level they can choose to spin or not to spin.

Agreed. Top level pool cannot be played without a mastery of both outside and inside English. However, a player will not be able to use English effectively until they fully understand all squirt, swerve, and throw effects ... this takes lots of learning and experience.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Joe T]

You are correct. Throw doesn't reduce much with inside English, but it is a little smaller in general (except at small cut angles or with gearing outside English). The main throw-related advantage of inside English is that the amount of throw is very consistent at all cut angles when inside English is used. All of these effects are illustrated in the graphs here:

"Throw - Part VII: CIT/SIT combo" (BD, February, 2007)​

Also, the inside English resource page has additional useful information

This depends on the cut angle and the type of English (inside vs. outside). For more info, see the article and resource page.

Both throw and cling are reduced by using lots of inside, as described above. And with gearing outside English, both throw and cling can be eliminated completely. However, both throw direction and amount can vary widely with outside English shots with different cut angles and different amounts of spin. For more info, see the outside English resource page.

Agreed. Top level pool cannot be played without a mastery of both outside and inside English. However, a player will not be able to use English effectively until they fully understand all squirt, swerve, and throw effects ... this takes lots of learning and experience.

Regards,
Dave

Hey Dave,
You confused me a little here;
"You are correct. Throw doesn't reduce much with inside English."
I was saying it does reduce cit if you have a good amount of rotational spin on it.

"Agreed. Top level pool cannot be played without a mastery of both outside and inside English. However, a player will not be able to use English effectively until they fully understand all squirt, swerve, and throw effects ... this takes lots of learning and experience."
And thats why we get to it right away

 

[duckie]

Something else about hitting on the vertical center of the CB, which includes hitting center ball as for a short distance stun shot, that the cue stick direction of travel is on the same as the CB direction of travel.

This means the tip of the cue stick is pointing to where the CB needs to be to make the OB go where you want. This also can mean your eyes and tip of the cue stick are looking/pointing at the same area and you then just stroke the cue straight to where you are looking.

When all these nice graphs are used to show the affect of CIT, can you give a real world figure for what slow, med and fast speeds really are?

I read in one article where the speeds of 1 mph, 3mph, and 7mph were used. To me, these are meaning less. Does anyone really know what a CB going 1 mph looks like or what it feels like to hit a CB to make it go 1 mph?

So, being the uneducated banger that I am, I put these speed in terms that I can relate too , ie, inches per second and feet per second.

1 mph = 17.5 inches per second or 1.4 ft per second
3 mph = 52.8 inches per second or 4.4 ft per second
7 mph = 123.3 inches per second or 10.26 ft per second

Just consider these figures when someone uses terms that have no real world value in order to prove something. Anything can be proven in a lab under controlled conditions, but this does not mean the same results will appear under real world conditions.

Meaning CIT and SIT does not happen on every shot. There is a point where they do occur. This point is never the same since the play conditions are never the same.

In motorcycle and bicycle riding, there is a steering style called countersteering. What this means is to turn right, you pus on the right bar causing the bike to go right, go left, push left on the bar.

The thing is that is only occurs above a certain speed. Below that speed, to go right, the bars are turned right. The speed where this occurs is never the same fro every bike.

Same with CIT and SIT. They happen but only at certain points and learning where these are is key to truly expressing yourself through your shot making.

 

[dr_dave]

Hey Dave,
You confused me a little here;
"You are correct. Throw doesn't reduce much with inside English."
I was saying it does reduce cit if you have a good amount of rotational spin on it.

Sorry for the confusion. You are correct. With lots of spin, inside English does reduce the throw quite a bit for cut angles greater than about 25 degrees. Check out the diagrams in the CIT/SIT article. From Diagram 3, with cut angles above about 25 degrees, typical throw with no English is about 5 degrees, and typical throw with maximum inside English (100% English) is about 3 degrees. This is a lot less ... about 40% less. However, this is not the case at smaller cut angles and smaller amounts of inside English. And with bigger cut angles, maximum English might not be the best choice (for many players, and especially at larger distances), even if it is desirable for getting position on the next shot. Unfortunately, the world is not always a simple or nice place. :frown:

Best regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

But physics-wise it doesn't make any sense to add inside, just to make a ball... because you must overcut the ball a degree or two on purpose, which is gonna screw up how you aim.

If I told you I aim to undercut almost every inside English shot, would you at least pause and rethink your position (at least with a 'what the hell are you talking about' pause)?

I mean, if you're not aiming to undercut your inside English shots, now i know why you (general) are avoiding them.

And fwiw, I use inside and outside equally. Neither is easier or harder, and each is used as necessary and not for any other reason.

Freddie <~~~ missed by aiming to overcut inside English shots for years

 

[CreeDo]

So joe, just to see if we're on the same page... I get the idea that people shouldn't read those out-of-context quotes and become scared of inside. They need to get comfy with it and be able to use it at will, like it's not a big deal.

Would you say anyone should use inside strictly to make a ball, without any positional worries? (i.e. when the cue ball is not going to touch a rail?) Because I only use inside in 2 situations:

1. I'm gonna hit a rail and use inside to spin the CB along a desired path.
2. I can't quite hit the ball full enough and must throw it in

I can't imagine just making balls with inside in a game situation, when neither of those situations applies.

I've heard a few people say use inside on long thin cuts if you're just trying to make a tough shot, but I find I do best with center top for that.

 

[Joe T]

Gotcha Dave, thanks.
Not sure I agree with the less than 25 degrees though. I agree a little spin can cause more cit with less than 25 not sure about a lot of spin though.
I know everyone here has had a slight backcut around 10-20 degrees down the long rail on the money ball and has put "just a touch" of outside only to throw the ball into the side cushion (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't)
Not tellem to load up with max side spin on that shot but if you can get your cb rotating more than less (perhaps decent backspin) you can worry less about whether its going to throw or not.