changing pivot point on a cue

Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
Hi,

I was wondering if it was possible to take a low deflection shaft,
and alter something (coring?, ferule material or size, tip..). anything
so that the pivot point on the cue would be closer to a regular bridge?

i have a high deflection shaft from my J&J playing cue that costed 20$. the pivot point is exactly at my usual bridgedistance. I dont mind that the cue loses a bit of his low deflection quality.

is this possible?

Also i'm looking for someone who could make a custom shaft for me.
ive tried Varney but he's full, bhq but he is full too, someone told me to contact RAT, ... any other cuemaker who could make a shaft where i specify the taper, tip, (5 black coloured rings (not actual rings, just painting them underneath the shaft would be ok)), ferule material, pin size, colar , using old growth wood and specify the pivot point?
 
Get the new billiards Digest (Your pivot Point) Find it and you'll have an easy way to compensate for squirt. By David Aliciatore Ph.D Maybe this artice will help you. The shaft I remember that was develept was a shaft made by Edwin Reyes vs Pred.314. Easy Pool tutor did the article on the er 240 vs pred. mark
 
Wow what an idea for a new product. An adjustable shaft that can somehow adjust to match your natural/ comfortable bridge distance to the cue ball.
 
HollyWood said:
Get the new billiards Digest (Your pivot Point) Find it and you'll have an easy way to compensate for squirt. By David Aliciatore Ph.D Maybe this artice will help you. The shaft I remember that was develept was a shaft made by Edwin Reyes vs Pred.314. Easy Pool tutor did the article on the er 240 vs pred. mark
Click to expand...

thanks hollywood.

i dont have the billiard digests as i live in belgium, but ill check out with some guys here if someone has the article.

Lama's; i think you got it reversed :D im not searching to make a shaft wich has an andjustable pivot point. I'm looking for someone that can make a shaft that has a pivot point that i will specify.
aka: i ask for a shaft that has a pivot point for ballspeed of 2 table lenghts at xx inches from the tip.

I could just buy shafts untill i'm lucky to find one, but then the shaft maybe hasnt got the right taper, ferule, tip etc, and if i change that, then the pivot point will change again, and wont be like i want. so instead of ME changes my game to a cue, im looking to build a shaft that was made for ME.

ive been working on BHE thanks to Colin for some time now, and i'm just looking for a cuemaker that can make a shaft that will help me in using BHE. i'm not going to tell yet to much about it, as its still a theory thing in my head for the moment, but i'd like to make a shaft that is made to be used in combination with BHE , AND that has the specifications of my own playing style. Ive talked with colin about it, and he things its a greath idea :D

maybe i should patent the shaft :p, but for the moment i need a prototype to test it out.

who needs Z, ob1, 314, if you have BHE :D
 
Solartje said:
.
i ask for a shaft that has a pivot point for ballspeed of 2 table lenghts at xx inches from the tip.
Click to expand...
i dont use BHE but i always thought that shot speed didnt matter as long as you were bridged at the pivot point when the tip hit the ball. someone?
 
predator 314

Somewhere on the site I've actually posted what I did with my 314 on a predator that I am now using as a break cuebut at one time used as a playing cue. I cut off the tenon and ferule and drilled out the foam core and added a new tenon. The low deflection, low squirt shafts usually have some method of decreasing the end mass of the shaft like with the predators removing putting a foam core and drilling out the centers of the end of the shaft. If you go to a,most any cue repairman or cue maker they should be able to do what I did.
 
Ant812 said:
i dont use BHE but i always thought that shot speed didnt matter as long as you were bridged at the pivot point when the tip hit the ball. someone?
Click to expand...


For the most part it doesn't, but with really hard and really soft shots it does. With soft shots it will throw the ball more in the opposite direction of the side the spin is imparted on the cue ball. I have a theory as to what causes this, but as I don't have a strong particle physics background and me and Colin always get into semantic arguments, I'll keep it to myself. as to the hard shots, collision induced throw will cause the angle to shorten. experiment with really hard shots and you'll see what I mean.
 
Jaden said:
Somewhere on the site I've actually posted what I did with my 314 on a predator that I am now using as a break cuebut at one time used as a playing cue. I cut off the tenon and ferule and drilled out the foam core and added a new tenon. The low deflection, low squirt shafts usually have some method of decreasing the end mass of the shaft like with the predators removing putting a foam core and drilling out the centers of the end of the shaft. If you go to a,most any cue repairman or cue maker they should be able to do what I did.
Click to expand...
That's a violation of Predator's patent.
Joey~Wonders what pivot point have to do with 12 year old kids playing with crooked cues in the Phlippines but run out when they see there's an out~
 
Ant812 said:
i dont use BHE but i always thought that shot speed didnt matter as long as you were bridged at the pivot point when the tip hit the ball. someone?
Click to expand...
Hitting harder gives swerve less opportunity to take effect, which makes it appear that more squirt is being produced. Hitting softer gives swerve more opportunity to take effect, which makes it appear that less squirt is being produced.

pj
chgo
 
Solartje said:
... I was wondering if it was possible to take a low deflection shaft, and alter something (coring?, ferule material or size, tip..). anything so that the pivot point on the cue would be closer to a regular bridge?
...
Click to expand...
]
The stick will squirt more if you add mass to the ferrule. You could use a more dense ferrule or just get a normal shaft. I don't think I've seen any cue maker offer to make shafts with a specific pivot point. It's not an easy test to do.
 
Bob Jewett said:
]
The stick will squirt more if you add mass to the ferrule. You could use a more dense ferrule or just get a normal shaft. I don't think I've seen any cue maker offer to make shafts with a specific pivot point. It's not an easy test to do.
Click to expand...

some nice reply's.

i didn't think so either Bob, but i thought IF there is one, i'll probably find someone here to do the work.

i guess i'll just have to go to a shop , try shafts untill one stands out and then send it to a cuemaker, and change the pin, colar, tip and add the BHE rings. (i dont think changing them wont change the pivot point by a significant amount.)

Jaden:
yes speed influences alot the amount of squirt, in my cue : 0.5 table lenght speed is like 5cm closer to the tip, for a 3 rail shot, its 5cm further then the tip.

i havent played with a predator yet, but i mean what can be better then to have 0% deflection :) just takes time to really master all the other parts that influence them, but once mastered it is mighty. very mighty :D
made me jump from beating the 5ball ghost to beating the 8ball ghost. thats how powerfull it is.

Colin should be able to post some more research on BHE in the future, but as he moved to australia he hasnt got a table to tape the whole thing. Can't wait to read and watch his next movie.

Bob:
i thought that with "low deflection shaft" the laminated technique would lower the distance from 5cm to maybe 3cm or so, so the distance of my rings would be closer and the margin of error would be smaller. but keeping it high deflection enough to have the pivot point at a normal distance. Do you think that by changing the front weight the pivotpoint distance differences would become smaller?
 
Just a point of clarification here. Although shafts such as the 314 are marketed at "low deflection" shafts, they are actually high deflection shafts. The greater the shaft deflection, the less the cue ball squirts. That is what they actually do...but I suppose they would have had a hard time marketing them if they called them "High Deflection" cues.

If you use BHE, there is quite an adjustment to be made by the player if you switch to a HD/LS shaft.
Steve
 
Trunks-Mooning.jpg
 
Solartje said:
Hi,

I was wondering if it was possible to take a low deflection shaft,
and alter something (coring?, ferule material or size, tip..). anything
so that the pivot point on the cue would be closer to a regular bridge?

i have a high deflection shaft from my J&J playing cue that costed 20$. the pivot point is exactly at my usual bridgedistance. I dont mind that the cue loses a bit of his low deflection quality.

is this possible?
Click to expand...
Steve Titus of Platinum Billiards has done some research that should help if you're serious about doing this. This is from a thread on RSB.

"OK, just did a whole new series of weight (mass-whatever) tests and
these numbers should put things in better perspective. Took a Predator
shaft and wrapped one gram of lead tape around the middle of the first
1", and shot a series of 12mm left and right, and 6mm left and right,
and took the average for the four shots. Next, 2g around the first
inch and shot a series, then 3g, etc...Then I put the weight around
the 2nd inch and tested, around the third inch, etc...Actual squirt
increases 2.7mm over 50" per gram added to the first inch of the
shaft. Squirt increases 2.1mm for each gram at 2". 1.65mm at 3",
1.35mm at 4", .8mm at 5", and .3mm at 6".
Now, a close approximation of the weight of the first inch of a
Predator 314 shaft is 2.9g. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th inch 1.4g. A shaft
that is the size of a Predator but with no hole and a plain plastic
sleeve ferrule (like a Viking) weighs 3.2g for the first inch, 2.3g
for the 2nd, and 2.2g each for the 3rd and 4th. A 13 1/4mm shaft with
capped composite ferrule (like a Schon or a Joss) weighs 3.9g first
inch, 2.7g 2nd inch, and 2.3g each for the 3rd and 4th. When you do
the arithmetic, based on 36.1mm squirt for the 314 shaft, the
Viking-like shaft should be around 41.3mm, and the other type around
44.2mm. If you look at the PB deflection chart this is pretty good
evidence that tip-mass is the main culprit.
The highest squirting shaft we tested for the site is the Scorpion Bk
cue - it has a steel ferrule and at 51.4mm, produces 42% more than the
314. I estimate that ferrule adds close to 4g to the first inch. What
would a shaft look like that could achieve even twice the squirt of
the 314? Take a 13 1/4mm "heavy ferrule" shaft and add 10 grams to the
first inch - a 3" long 5/16" steel joint pin weighs about 20g! :-) "


He doesn't mention how wide the tape was (it comes in different widths) which is of some importance and needs further looking into. If you could persuade a cuemaker to remove the ferrule and insert the appropriate amount of weight in the core at the appropriate distance, I don't see why you couldn't thus set the pivot point to a specific distance.

Some remarks.

I'm not sure if you were serious in a later post, but the Predators are far from zero squirt. The best data that I've seen, from Platinum Billiards and Predator themselves (also backed up by some testing from Dr. Alciatore), indicate about a 25% reduction for the first generation, and a little more for the second, depending of course on what you take to be an average amount of squirt.

It changes very little with shot speed and takes a really fine measurement to even detect this variance.

Stiffness is an integral part of endmass (along with the mass itself) and more stiffness equals more squirt. However, since wood shafts are all made up of pretty much the same material, increasing stiffness by changing diameter or taper generally contributes more material mass than stiffness, so that the material mass tends to dominate. At least that's my understanding.

Jim
 
Jal

thanks for this information.

if i understand it correctly, shafts like predator have like u said a -25% squirt that almost doesnt change depending on the speed you play, but almost impossible to use BHE with this shaft as the pivot point is to far.

now with my cheap shaft (probably 10$ or so ) the speed really influences the squirt but the pivot point is perfectly placed.

so in short:
314: pivot point to far + almost not influenced with speed.
J&J : pivot point perfect + alot of influence with speed.

ideal shaft: pivot point perfect + no speed influence.
aka
ideal shaft: more weight in the front + laminated technique.

thats why i was thinking, to make a laminated type of shaft (or buy one and change its specifics) like the 314 (because i suspect that it is the laminated technique that makes the squirt almost un-influencable (sp?) from the speed) and add weight to the shaft top so that the pivot point moves forward.

i'm no cuebuilder, but if i understand everything correct, this should be possible, and it would be the perfect shaft for BHE users + the extra rings as reference for bridgelength = the shaft that suites my play :D
 
Solartje said:
thanks for this information.

if i understand it correctly, shafts like predator have like u said a -25% squirt that almost doesnt change depending on the speed you play, but almost impossible to use BHE with this shaft as the pivot point is to far.

now with my cheap shaft (probably 10$ or so ) the speed really influences the squirt but the pivot point is perfectly placed.

so in short:
314: pivot point to far + almost not influenced with speed.
J&J : pivot point perfect + alot of influence with speed.

ideal shaft: pivot point perfect + no speed influence.
aka
ideal shaft: more weight in the front + laminated technique.

thats why i was thinking, to make a laminated type of shaft (or buy one and change its specifics) like the 314 (because i suspect that it is the laminated technique that makes the squirt almost un-influencable (sp?) from the speed) and add weight to the shaft top so that the pivot point moves forward.

i'm no cuebuilder, but if i understand everything correct, this should be possible, and it would be the perfect shaft for BHE users + the extra rings as reference for bridgelength = the shaft that suites my play :D
Click to expand...
You're welcome Solartje. A couple of points.

First, the squirt figures he cites are given in terms of the amount of sideways "deflection" of the cueball after travelling 50" when hit at a specific offset. (He took averages of 6mm and 12mm for the offsets which equals 9mm) . The deflection numbers can be converted to pivot point distances easily enough.

The first Predator shaft squirts about 75% that of a "typical" cue. It's pivot point is about 12" back from the tip, so you could use backhand english (BHE) with it if you wanted to employ that longish bridge length.

He's also measured the change in squirt with shot speed for several different cues and found only a very slight increase over a broad range of speeds. It's so slight that it's almost a miracle if he was able to do this with some accuracy. This should apply to all cues including your J&J. Laminations should not make a difference either way as far as the influence of speed is concerned. They provide more radial consistency (ie, it matters less how the cue is oriented in your grip hand).

I'm assuming the cuemaker could remove the ferrule without damaging it or get a replacement if necessary. I'm not a cuenmaker either so I don't know for sure.

Some people have thought that his squirt figures are way too high for the "low" squirt cues, but Dr. Alciatore's measurements back them up.

Jim
 
JoeyInCali said:
That's a violation of Predator's patent.
Click to expand...

Hi Joey,

I don't know the american law on this, but in germany, a patent holder can forbid me to do what he has invented, but he can not forbid me to do what he has not invented.

So if I take a shaft and build something that Predator has not patented, I am not in violation of their patent.

However, an authorized dealer/repairman might have to decline the job because he is under contract by Predator to only perform jobs on these shafts that are approved by the manufacturer. Anyone not under their contract would not be bound by these restrictions.

Regards,

Detlev
 
Jaden:
Somewhere on the site I've actually posted what I did with my 314 on a predator that I am now using as a break cuebut at one time used as a playing cue. I cut off the tenon and ferule and drilled out the foam core and added a new tenon. ...most any cue repairman or cue maker they should be able to do what I did.

Joey:
That's a violation of Predator's patent.
Click to expand...

Not if done for private use, as described. It's not being manufactured for sale.

pj
chgo
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top