Cheap sets, no one seems to want to play em

JumpShotMagic said:
I keep getting asking to gamble, and keep getting turned down when I suggest what I call cheap set of a Buck, or Two in a race to 7 or 9. with a little weight for me case I am not a great player.


I am getting frustrated. But I see zero reason to just give money away, as it comes too hard from my sweat.
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hay man i like playing cheap too. i'm not good enough to play for anything real. but you could at least bet enough to cover the table time. 10-20 dollars or something like that. or 2 bucks a game. at a buck a game you can't even buy a soda with your winnings. try a race to 5 for 5$ still cheap enough but fast enough that you might cover the time if you win a couple sets.

or just play for fun. or just for table time
 
crawfish said:
If you are ever in Raleigh, I will play you a race to twenty, alternating breaks, Texas Express, no three foul rule in effect, for the sum of $1 dollar. You've got action, my man. It is very frustrating getting action cheap enough to play, I agree. Wait until you hit the balls pretty well and the only action you get are people that play for a living. Or, you have to give up the last three and the break. Best of Luck. By the way, I have lost thousands at $2 a game. Paid my dues, so to speak. But the money found it's way home times over.
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Great offer, Crawfish. I like your style.

Flex
 
JumpShotMagic said:
I keep getting asking to gamble, and keep getting turned down when I suggest what I call cheap set of a Buck, or Two in a race to 7 or 9. with a little weight for me case I am not a great player.


I am getting frustrated. But I see zero reason to just give money away, as it comes too hard from my sweat.
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A buck or two, as in $1 or $2? That's not cheap that's dirt poor. A cheap set is $20-$40, with $20 being the cheapest that most would be willing to play for, and many won't play for less than $40-$50.

I never ask for weight playing races to 7 for $20-$40 since it's so cheap.

You're right not to want to just give away your money, but I think it's unrealistic to expect people to play so cheaply if you really are looking for some competition, and some would probably take asking for weight on top of that as a bit insulting.

I once talked to a well-known player in the northeast and told him that I was really trying to get better by playing the best players, but it was difficult to do because I didn't have a lot of money to gamble with. So I asked him if he would be willing to play me some cheap sets. He said sure, and I asked him what the cheapest he would play for was, and he said "I'll play for $500 a set."
 
Well if youre playing for $1-$2 you have to also incorporate the table time. Both players will most likely end up DOWN.

Playing for $5 a set including loser table time will get you some decent games with decent players. I use to do this all the time with a player I could spot 2-3 balls too, before you know it the experience grew and we played even , so it is worth it.

I am pretty cheap when it comes to gambling, although I make a very good salary with financial stability, I dont throw $50 sets around like nothing. I love to play and of course the small amounts are fine to me, so there are players out there...
 
Flex said:
As for spending money on lessons, I've taken lessons from 5 or 6 guys so far, and the VERY best one I ever took lasted all of 10 minutes, and it didn't cost me a thing. It was offered by a top teaching pro after I'd played him 9 ball for probably 3 hours or so, for free. He helped me by changing my stroke. He gave me a simple drill, along with specific things in my stroke that I should change, and asked me the favor of giving his changes 7 to 10 days to kick in. He assured me my game would go up. He was oh so right. His name is Mark Wilson. Here's his website: http://playgreatpool.com/

My suggestion for someone who wants to play better players and improve, if he is unable to take some lessons, is first of all to go to the library, or bookstore and get these books: The 99 Critical Shots in Pool, Play Your Best 9-Ball, The 8-Ball Handbook for Winners, and The Advanced Pro Book. Also, be sure to get Bert Kinister's "60 Minute Workout for 9 Ball and 8 Ball" and his "Advanced Fundamentals" tapes.

When someone is working on their game seriously, better players will often try to hustle them. At that point, they should especially watch out, as the better players will often offer them a spot, knowing they have no chance to win. And they'll try to hustle them with the false line that they need to play for money to get better. Baloney...
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Lessons and books will definately improve your fundamental physical skills and improve your mental thought process to the game. What books and lessons will NOT teach you is how to win when the pressure is on. Videotapes, diagrams and lessons can't teach you to bring it when it needs to be brought. My point is, betting on yourself will improve a very important part of the game, which is learning how to win in pressure situations. JMO, but leagues and $5 weekly tourneys don't count, unless you do them often.
 
There are a bunch of solutions here, imo :

- play tournaments, your opponent can't refuse to play
- find a reasonable singles league, your opponent can't refuse to play
- ask more people ... especially those who you know or have seen many times .... I do not gamble and several of our best players will play "free" sets with me, of course several will not, I don't ask them anymore but I do play them in tournaments

Dave
 
Best advice that I can give... find someone who plays at your level (or slightly better) and is also someone who thinks like you do re gambling.
 
Flex said:
The first time I went in to Chris's Billiards in Chicago, I had no idea what I was doing on the pool table, although I had a great time. My stick wasn't even decent, but who cares.

There was a fellow there who spotted me and came over and we played 9 ball for a few games, and then came the hustle. He offered to play me for the time, suggesting that we were more or less the same level of player. What a crock. He let me break, and after I sat down, he broke and ran so many times I got a little dizzy. I was simply amazed by this guy's game, man could he play. After a long time at the table, he left me a long, very tough cut shot, which I had no chance at potting. He came back to the table and proceeded to run out the rack. Then the next, and next and so on. At a certain point , I said enough, and pulled up. What he got out of that was probably two hours of free pool, and I didn't learn anything, except to watch out for guys like that. It wasn't very much fun. I later found out this guy has beaten champions, surprise, surprise. A true hustler, no doubt about it.

If I hadn't taken the whooping philosophically, I may have quit pool. But I learned from that guy: watch out for the hustlers.

Even playing pool for the time can be a waste, if the person isn't ready for it.

Flex
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How is this guy a "hustler", as least as far as this particular case is concerned? He played you for the time, and then put on a spectacular exhibition, showing you how well the game can really be played.

You are extremely lucky he only charged you the time for that. He could have lemoned on you, letting you ACTUALLY think you guys played the same level, until the bet was jacked a little.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Lesser players learn as much as they want to learn. When I was around good players in WA state, I looked at the best players in the area, and saw there was something unusual about the way their cue ball moved around the table.

At that point, I knew the basics of english, heck, I even had a pretty high run out percentage. At a time when I didn't even know about "natural angles" and such.

I did all sorts of unnatural things with the cue ball, like excessive use of inside english to hold up angles that did not need to be held up, etc.

I would have been thrilled at any point in my development to have a strong run out player be happy to play me "for the time". If they give me a tip or two, bonus!

Don't see how this guy hustled you.

Russ
 
My 2 cents...and then some

I am no longer the gambler I used to be but it seems to me no one wants to pay their dues anymore. When I was 16 I played many races to 7 for $5 or $10 dollars against better players. It was a challenge to me and I greatly improved in a short period time. I also enjoyed and still enjoy playing for table time. No one is gonna give you their best game for fun and most will not even play a weaker player cause it doesn't help their own game. It is important to play stronger players and watch their pattern play and safety play.

I do not feel you need to lose everything you have but playing cheap sets that you can afford will help alot. Buying any of the Phil Capelle books is a no brainer. I would start with Play Your Best Pool and then progress to Play Your Best Nine Ball or Play your best Eight ball depending on your choice of game. He also has Play your Best Straight Pool and a book on the mental game. You can't go wrong with Phil. All can be found at great prices on amazon.com and ebay.

I really appreciate when players come to me an offer to pay my time or play cheap sets. It shows that they want to get better by playing and watching better players. I'm not out to rob those people but I feel that since they are getting a learning experience out of it that I should at least be able to win free table time or a few dollars for my time. That shouldn't seem conceited as I have put in many hours of practice and have worked to have the game that I have. I don't mind giving a few tips after it's over if I see they want to learn.

The sad part is it is hard to find players like myself that will play cheap or for time. I work for a living so I'm not out to hustle or steal, I just want a little compensation for my time. It doesn't hurt to pay a little to learn a little. Best of luck in finding your potential.
 
senor said:
My point is, betting on yourself will improve a very important part of the game, which is learning how to win in pressure situations. JMO, but leagues and $5 weekly tourneys don't count, unless you do them often.
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I frequently play both in tournaments as well as in relatively cheap sets. I play primarily in handicapped 9 ball tournaments, although also take part in some 8 ball ones as well, almost always on 9 footers. The sets I play may be played even, taking weight or giving it up. Some of the toughest sets I've played have been even up, race to 7, for an ice cream cone. The cost isn't the thing, it's the pressure that finds its way into those sets if they are close at all. Playing in tournaments can bring the same or greater pressure depending on various factors. I mention these things because I do understand a bit about the value of playing under the gun. There are some things to be learned about pressure playing that will never be learned just by practicing, and vice versus.

In spite of all this though, betting on yourself for money that one cannot afford to lose is a losing proposition.

Flex
 
cigardave said:
Best advice that I can give... find someone who plays at your level (or slightly better) and is also someone who thinks like you do re gambling.
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I have a good friend who is much, much better than me. We make good practice partners because I can put the heat on him. When we play for something to make it a bit interesting, we'll usually play sets for 10 jellybeans, race to 7. The most recent time we played that format, alternate breaks, and I got the 3, the 5 and the 7, or the Magnum as we call it. :D

Mark Wilson's recent stroke lesson helped me a great deal, and I pot 'em better and play better position too, now. So much so that when I played my friend last week he told me he was really feeling the heat. In the past, if he'd get a shot on the 2 ball and there were no clusters on the table (we're playing on tight Gold Crowns) he'd likely get out. However, as I'm potting more balls, and more and more tough shots with increasing regularity, he's feeling the pressure of possibly missing a shot and not landing safe. So, last week, even though the sets were close, I won both. That is the kind of pressure that helps both him and me.

The pressure from playing him, and other even better players, has helped my game a lot. Some time ago I played Mike Davis in a non-handicapped 9 ball tournament. He won. Well, so what! Wasn't he supposed to win? Of course he was. But one thing I got out of that match was this: nobody scares me anymore. And the better players sure do pick up on that really quick.

So, tournaments where tough matches will occur, bring em on. And tough sets, even when the stakes are as simple as an ice cream come, bring em on too.

Both will help.

Flex
 
Flex said:
I play primarily in handicapped 9 ball tournaments, Flex
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Well, this explains a lot. I wouldn't play in a handicapped tournament to save my life. Why? Because you might find 1 or 2 really good players there, but that's about it. Good players like to play in OPEN tournaments to test themselves against other good players.

For that reason, when I was developing, I would travel up to 1 1/2 hours from where I lived, in order to find the toughest tournaments to play in.

If you are playing in a handicapped tournament, and you are getting the seven from a champion, what's that going to teach you? It's going to teach you to run through the seven against a champion, that's what. It's going to teach you to play safe while whacking at the seven, is what it will teach you.

I prefer playing in tournaments where at least 4 or 5 people have a legitimate chance to run out a race to three on you.

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
How is this guy a "hustler", as least as far as this particular case is concerned? He played you for the time, and then put on a spectacular exhibition, showing you how well the game can really be played.

You are extremely lucky he only charged you the time for that. He could have lemoned on you, letting you ACTUALLY think you guys played the same level, until the bet was jacked a little.
( . . . )

Don't see how this guy hustled you.
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The guy is a hustler, whether I've been able to adequately communicate that or not.

He has a reputation.

He's like a predator, who jumps on anybody he thinks he can beat and tries to sucker them into a money game, which he tried to do to me, but it didn't work out for him.

When we played that first time, and I've played him only once since then, once he left me a really tough shot, he had this look on his face like, "Well, when are you gonna bring it on, buddy?" He may have thought I was hustling him, but I'd only been playing 3 months.

Besides being a hustler, the guy's a liar. For some reason, these hustler types seem to have no compunction about lying. They can't be trusted.

Where was his hustle the first time? Well, he got free pool time for about 3 hours or so. As for lemoning, perhaps that means stalling, he did do a bit of it, but it was obvious after the first 10 minutes that I had ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE against this guy. What I learned in that situation was well worth what I paid for in table time: watch out for the hustlers!

When he tried to hustle me again last week, and I asked him for the kind of weight to give us both a chance at winning, he simply wasn't interested. He didn't want to have to bring his best game out, and it wasn't about the size of the bet. We didn't even talk about that, just the spot. By the way, he didn't accuse me of trying to hustle him, nothing of the sort. But he didn't like the counter offer, so we didn't play.

Not only is he a hustler, he's the worst kind of shark.

I remember watching him play another hustler (yes, they swim at Chris's...) some one pocket. The other player needed one ball, and was down on the shot for it. What does hustler/shark/liar #1 do? He freakin' kicks a trash can half way across the room, and shouts when he does it, right in the middle of the other guys back stroke. Did he miss the shot? Sure did.

Since that first time with hustler/shark/liar #1 I've developed some teeth and can bite back. Probably why he didn't play the other night.

Russ, by the way, I really enjoy your posts. :)

Thanks,

Flex
 
Russ Chewning said:
Well, this explains a lot. I wouldn't play in a handicapped tournament to save my life. Why? Because you might find 1 or 2 really good players there, but that's about it. Good players like to play in OPEN tournaments to test themselves against other good players.

For that reason, when I was developing, I would travel up to 1 1/2 hours from where I lived, in order to find the toughest tournaments to play in.

If you are playing in a handicapped tournament, and you are getting the seven from a champion, what's that going to teach you? It's going to teach you to run through the seven against a champion, that's what. It's going to teach you to play safe while whacking at the seven, is what it will teach you.

I prefer playing in tournaments where at least 4 or 5 people have a legitimate chance to run out a race to three on you.

Russ
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In the handicapped 9 ball tournaments at Chris's, the spotting isn't done with balls but with games. The lowest handicap is 3, some players, who play open speed and can easily lay down a 3 or 4 pack or more (one guy I played a couple of years ago told me his highest number of break-n-runs was 9 racks of 9 ball). There are easily 4 or 5 or more who can put the hurtin' on ya. A typical Sunday night tournament has betwee 35 and 40 players. One of the players who sometimes shows up has a handicap of 18, yes 18. That means once he gets in the money he needs to win 18 games to beat his opponent. Before that he goes to 9, and spots his opponents 9 games, with the minimum games an opponent has to win being 3. One night this guy missed a total, all night long, of 2 shots.

If that kind of competition isn't touh enough for you, it is for me.

By the way, I've found that whacking the 9 ball with abandon against a really good player isn't smart at all, unless hiding the cue ball is very high percentage. Whacking the 9 will probably lead to loss of game if it doesn't go in.

Perhaps if I didn't have tough competition to play against in Chicago I'd think differently about handicapped tournaments. As it is, Chris's tournament is probably the toughest tournament action in the city. I love it.

I've won the tournament perhaps 3 times in 3 years. Nobody has a lock on the tournament.

Flex

P.S. I also play in non-handicapped tournament where the action is tough. How about fading Mike Davis, Brandon Shuff, Danny Green and Jerry Slivka. Tough enough?
 
I don't like to gamble for a few reasons. Mainly, I don't like taking other people's money. Most of the poeple that ask me to play need that 50 bucks more than i do. Secondly, people play mind gimes and while I am sure that is all part of the game, I just don't like it when people act a certain way to try and hustle. It insults my intelligence. Third, if the there is 50 bucks on the line, I can care less. I don't need the money, don't care if I loose it, so there is no emotional hunger for me to win. If I loose I still eat. If I was playing for pool cues, that might be another story. i want almost all nice cues ever made and my wife won't let me buy them.

With that said, if there is a player that is very good, honest, and nice and respectful, I have no problem lossing set after set for the learning experiance.

Jordan
 
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Flex said:
I have a good friend who is much, much better than me. We make good practice partners because I can put the heat on him. When we play for something to make it a bit interesting, we'll usually play sets for 10 jellybeans, race to 7. The most recent time we played that format, alternate breaks, and I got the 3, the 5 and the 7, or the Magnum as we call it. :D

Mark Wilson's recent stroke lesson helped me a great deal, and I pot 'em better and play better position too, now. So much so that when I played my friend last week he told me he was really feeling the heat. In the past, if he'd get a shot on the 2 ball and there were no clusters on the table (we're playing on tight Gold Crowns) he'd likely get out. However, as I'm potting more balls, and more and more tough shots with increasing regularity, he's feeling the pressure of possibly missing a shot and not landing safe. So, last week, even though the sets were close, I won both. That is the kind of pressure that helps both him and me.

The pressure from playing him, and other even better players, has helped my game a lot. Some time ago I played Mike Davis in a non-handicapped 9 ball tournament. He won. Well, so what! Wasn't he supposed to win? Of course he was. But one thing I got out of that match was this: nobody scares me anymore. And the better players sure do pick up on that really quick.

So, tournaments where tough matches will occur, bring em on. And tough sets, even when the stakes are as simple as an ice cream come, bring em on too.

Both will help.

Flex
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tell me more about this stroke lesson from wilson?

Please!
 
I can't even fathom playing for a dollar and can see how most guys would get pissed at such an absurd suggestion

crackhead economics since only crackheads ever use that amount to buy and/or sell anything

kindergarten kids carry more for milk and juice than what you're suggesting
 
prewarhero said:
I don't like to gamble for a few reasons. Mainly, I don't like taking other people's money. Most of the poeple that ask me to play need that 50 bucks more than i do. Secondly, people play mind gimes and while I am sure that is all part of the game, I just don't like it when people act a certain way to try and hustle. It insults my intelligence. Third, if the there is 50 bucks on the line, I can care less. I don't need the money, don't care if I loose it, so there is no emotional hunger for me to win. If I loose I still eat. If I was playing for pool cues, that might be another story. i want almost all nice cues ever made and my wife won't let me buy them.

With that said, if there is a player that is very good, honest, and nice and respectful, I have no problem lossing set after set for the learning experiance.

Jordan
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Exactly how I feel. I think tournaments work just as well, if not better, since you can't keep playing once you have lost.
 
Cheap sets

A Cheap set is $50, anything less is TOO CHEAP, and not worth my time.
 
PoolSponge said:
Flex,

I'm not trying to start anything, but you said my method of paying to learn doesn't work, yet you recommend a few hundred dollars in books? My point, if anyone missed it, was this...if you want to gamble with a gambler put up some money, if you want to play for fun, play for fun with friends. Another easy way to pick up your game and get people to play with is join a pool league and get involved. I have had numerous students that have learned for free while playing on the same league team.

I am not recommending people walk in and throw money at the house pro and donate with no chance. Find someone better than you and make a deal that they are your practice partner. You play for reasonable money so it is worth their time to put out the effort of teaching and let nature take its course.

If you aren't serious about the game and do not want to improve why would you want to play the better players anyway? Does anyone find it fun playing a banger for free? Watching someone hammer balls around a table makes me cringe, playing them is rarely an option.
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I think you have some valid points that Flex may have taken the wrong way. I think it's important to play someone a little better than yourself and try and play hard. You should probably get one maybe two chances per game and I think that will improve a persons game. I used to play a guy that would spot me 4 games on 11 in nineball when I first started playing seriously. We played for $10 a set and I rarely won and I knew I was getting the worst of it but It forced me to play better. You shouldn't throw your money away but you should put some pressure on yourself or you might call it setting goals. Philw
 
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