Cheating on the 8 ball rack

[jay helfert]

First of all, if they aren't good players, then making 3 or 4 balls on the break won't necessarily help them. In fact, it may benefit you more. But a couple of good points were made here, especially if the players are capable of running out. If you rack about a half ball high and leave the one ball loose, then break into the second ball, you may well get excessive action and make multiple balls every time. Whether or not you can get out here depends on your skill level. For a good player it can be a huge advantage.

 

[ndakotan]

Break

I have friends that break 8 ball racks fairly well (barbox). I am usually under 50%, but get a good spread. Have had better luck with 2nd ball and 3rd ball break.

I think that tilting the rack in 2nd ball or 3rd ball is an advantage to the breaker, but you have to notice where the wing balls are hitting the rail.

I have heard reputable people say rack above for advantage and I've heard rack below for advantage. I think it depends upon the table so much that it is hard to tell. I think the rails make a big difference. Hard to make balls on a dead rail.

I also try to watch how balls go in. If they are kicked around, it is a terrible bet. If you can get a ball to slide to the corner or side pockets, exploit it.

Truthfully, I do not know of a situation where you could cry foul on your opponents (rack your own) rack unless it is obviously on the spot, doesn't meet cornerball specs (opposite suits in BCA?) or is egregiously tilted. There are no rules indicating anything other than on the spot (it's a big spot), so what you gonna call?

 

[maxeypad2007]

You need to get a copy of joe tucker racking secrets volume one. You will learn a lot from it.

 

[arthurbacon]

break physics

Very interesting conversation regarding (possible) cheating with the eight ball rack. I can't help but recount an interesting breaking situation I had with Jason Klatt once in Seattle a few years ago. He was beating me mercilessly (of course) 6 to 0 in a race to seven (nine ball) so as I was racking the inevitable final rack I just sort of conspicuously rattled all the balls loosely in the rack, picked up the triangle and put it under the table and looked up to see a rather startled expression on Jason's face. I smiled and shrugged...and then he smiled conspiratorially...and smashed those loose balls with his usual thunderous elan and scattered them spectacularly... and four found gravity . So much for all the (physics) hoopla about balls touching each other...or not, touching as the case may be...

 

[Maniac]

Very interesting conversation regarding (possible) cheating with the eight ball rack. I can't help but recount an interesting breaking situation I had with Jason Klatt once in Seattle a few years ago. He was beating me mercilessly (of course) 6 to 0 in a race to seven (nine ball) so as I was racking the inevitable final rack I just sort of conspicuously rattled all the balls loosely in the rack, picked up the triangle and put it under the table and looked up to see a rather startled expression on Jason's face. I smiled and shrugged...and then he smiled conspiratorially...and smashed those loose balls with his usual thunderous elan and scattered them spectacularly... and four found gravity . So much for all the (physics) hoopla about balls touching each other...or not, touching as the case may be...

One time does not offer a true test. That said, when my wife and I are playing pool together and she is having trouble getting tight racks, I tell her not to worry about it and just remove the triangle. Way more times than not I scatter the heck out of the rack AND make balls regardless of whether it is a full rack of balls or a 9-ball rack. I'm talking about some serious loose racks here. Now......if I am in COMPETITION with another player with something on the line, I'd prefer that ALL the balls were touching!!!

Maniac

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Very interesting conversation regarding (possible) cheating with the eight ball rack. I can't help but recount an interesting breaking situation I had with Jason Klatt once in Seattle a few years ago. He was beating me mercilessly (of course) 6 to 0 in a race to seven (nine ball) so as I was racking the inevitable final rack I just sort of conspicuously rattled all the balls loosely in the rack, picked up the triangle and put it under the table and looked up to see a rather startled expression on Jason's face. I smiled and shrugged...and then he smiled conspiratorially...and smashed those loose balls with his usual thunderous elan and scattered them spectacularly... and four found gravity . So much for all the (physics) hoopla about balls touching each other...or not, touching as the case may be...

Would he have been that eager to break the "rack" you gave him if he was *down* 6-0?

 

[Pelican1989]

If they were making that many balls on that many breaks, it is a strong possibility that they were raking the head ball in front of the spot, believe me this makes a huge difference. After they rack, walk to the side of the table and line up the two diamonds and head ball, it will be easy to see if it is out too far. If the diamond is hard to see, set a piece of chalk on it, then walk to the other side and line them up, unless you are paying attention, they could be racking quite a bit off. Play the same game they are, rack yours ahead a little, they will get the message. In our league, we rack for each other, I rack the head ball on the spot but slightly back from perfect, it really cuts down making balls on the break, it does not always work, but it does make a big difference, I have done it for years. The rules are on the spot, not perfectly on the spot. If you have access to a table, rack each way 10 times and break them, and let us know if you could see a difference.

this to me is straight up cheating

 

[Skippy27]

On a valley barbox it's somewhat common to make 4+ balls on the break. I've seen it a dozen or so times since I started playing pool (a year ago), but obviously not every game like the OP describes. Maybe even more times than that, I wasn't really counting. As a matter of fact I think I have video of me doing just that. You just gotta stop hitting it with your purse sally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fwCfQ7XAEQ

This is just a blatant bullshit comment. I have seen thousands upon thousands of games on a Valley table as virtually every single table in this area are Valley tables and it is quite rare to see 4 or more balls drop.

Quite Rare would be maybe once out of 50 breaks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

As far as racking relative to the spot, a couple of things:

The spot is a point, not a patch or a round sticker. That point is exactly on the centerline of the table and between the two diamonds (technically, on the "foot string"). The spot has zero diameter. That's the theory.

The practice is a little different. On a table where 8 ball and 9 ball are played there is a crater where the head ball sits. Often that crater is up-table a little from the spot. If you are going to rack the balls tightly -- and that's the main consideration for the rack -- the whole rack has to move up to match the crater or you have to make a new crater at the spot. I roll the balls forward some to match the crater so the balls will rack tightly. Lots of people do. It's not considered cheating, usually.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Good post

Okey Dokey

First, it is a bar box league, my apologies, that should have been stated in my initial post, I've been in the league for around 10 years now, im not a rookie, and the skill level I would say is around the high C's, on average, we run the odd table here and there type.

As to the validity of my claim? When Five guys step up to break and pot 4 or more balls off the break consecutively after each other, have a history of shady antics, these are things that make me go hmmmmmm

Hence the reason im posting and asking for folks advice

I for one want to know how its done, call it a need to know, I fail to see the reasoning of making up nonsense just to gain your opinions? It happened, so I posted, couldn’t care less if you believe it or not.



Yes sir, a couple years ago the league switched to a rack your own rule, as a poster had suggested, a lot of bickering and complaining about bad racks, poor sportsmanship and fighting, especially during the playoffs so the league decided to switch. I can see both the pros and cons of both sides but remain indifferent.

I was privileged enough to take a lesson with Johnny Archer, he told me, Make sure the balls around the 8 are tight, always touching, and the head ball is touching, aim for head ball with the intent of a dead on flush strike, if the QB squats then you know it was a dead on hit, if the QB squirts to either side you know it wasn’t dead on.

I also try a lot of follow threw with the break stroke. More then likely my break stroke is horrendous.


Yes you can, but like I said if I don’t know what im looking for then it wouldn’t matter.





Honestly I didn’t count the high or low balls, so I couldn’t answer that, sorry.

I've read pattern racking on this site before, I thought the prevailing thought on it was it really doesn't matter?

I have a hard time believing this was just one of those good nights, I would be more open to believe they were participating in a low percentage cheating action and having a good night with that then just being out right lucky. Or, im flat out paranoid.

Either way im just making conversation.



So first you make an assumptive post as to mine being such a simplistic and offensive to one so skilled as yourself that your initial arrogant reply was to the all inspiring guidance of "Sheesh"

Then you make condescending remarks to my lack of experience whilst regurgitating information that was already posted buy folks here who actually give a $hit.

Then Finish off the post with a holier than thou comment about integrity and self satisfaction?

Sir, from the bottom of my heart I sincerely wish you to go forth and fornicate with yourself. Thank you.

Good post, one of the best I've seen on here. From the O.P.s description, it is probably a head ball break, but need to know for sure. That team has definitely figured out something, for that table. Way easier, for a mid-level team, to gain rig-racking knowledge then to develop skills. Don't know if it's illegal, because I don't know what it is.

 

[JoeyA]

In all these years I have been playing 8 ball, I never once considered that you could rig the rack so that you could consistently make 4 balls on the break. I will try some of the things that were suggested in this thread to enhance the chances of making 4 balls on the break.

FTR, I break pretty good 8 ball on the bar table but seldom ever make 4 balls on the break. How multiple people can consistently make 4 balls on the break is something pretty amazing even if it is cheating.

Thanks for sharing something that I never considered before.

JoeyA

 

[Jimmorrison]

I tried the second ball break, tilted rack, head ball gapped forward. Made one or more balls every time. Made three balls several times, made four only once. This is huge improvement over my usual results. I would never do this, but thanks for the heads up. Valley box, decent cushions, recent cloth. With a normal head ball break, tight rack, 20 to 24 mph, I made a ball less then fifty percent. Anyone else try anything?

 

[Michael S]

I am in the VNEA Masters. We are expected to rack our own. If it is a dud, well that's your problem...

 

[lorider]

I just recently joined usapl where you rack your own. I think I need to study up on this racking stuff. My break has always been a weak link in my game. I have never bothered checking the rack cause like the op I wouldn't know what I was looking for

 

[Ekojasiloop]

You didn’t get robbed or cheated. But, even if you did, they deserved it. It would be like if you figured out Vegas... you’d deserve a little cash, wouldn’t you?