China Open

sjm said:
For starters, I have interacted with pool's fan base on a regular basis since 1976, having attended several hundred events live over that period. Nonetheless, that is only a small part of the picture.

The fans have not only spoken out on this subject but they have screamed out. Twenty-five years ago, several players and event producers tried to replace 9ball with 10ball, speculating that the fans wanted a harder game and that 9ball would soon fall of the face of the earth. Twenty-five years later, there are probably still twenty 9ball events for every 10ball event in pro pool. Call shot 10ball is not what the fans wanted. 9ball was, and 9ball remains the game in which pool players make most of their livings. When a couple of event producers tried call shot call safe 10 ball, they were even more wrong, and that version of 10ball basically disappeared, ultimately rejected by both fans and players.

Poker has to be the most boring thing on television. Pool was not better to watch back in the day and few were watching. Pool was worse. There are plenty of "characters" in the game today (Shaw, Oi, Pagulayan, Melling, Kaci, Souto, Sanderson to name a few). Perhaps the action scene was more vibrant back in the day, but more people watch action matches today than ever before.

I am on the other side of this argument. I think the game may already be too hard. The four inch pockets with the narrow break box version of 9ball in use in WNT events makes the game very difficult and packages are few and far between. At the World 9ball in July, there was just one 5-pack and one 4-pack in the entire event. Packages are not as big a part of the game as they were back in the day. The 4 3/4" pockets of yesteryear meant more, not less, offense and less strategy than today.

Finally, I have seen no evidence that player personalities come out more when the game is harder.
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This line truly has allot of good meaning.... I believe the sport/players should decide POCKET SIZE.
Too me it's exactly the same as having every tee box in golf lined with trees narrowly for at least 200 yrs.
Takes the game outta the game.
I've felt strongly that 4 1/4'' for all the corners is correct.
The fans want scoring/offense..... not a game where a non player can tell what a pros going to do ''most the time''.
Making the pockets too small also keeps top end pros in their 40's More outta the game.
 
fjk said:
Have you seen evidence to the contrary? I'm going to go out on a limb and say players show more raw emotion (personality) when frustrated than they do with success. The table-jumping-fist-pumping celebration after a big finals victory is so contrived it's cringeworthy.

Another point (please don't take offense): yourself and the people you interact with at tournaments (including me) are not a good representation of the average person promoters would hope to attract to increase pool viewership. Reminds me of the old adage "fish see water last".

As a social experiment, try polling random adults in a busy mall to name five famous pool players from any era, dead or alive. I'm guess that on average, people will be able to name 3 or 4 in total and then draw a blank. Guess what the most common answer would be. I'd speculate it would either be Willie Mosconi or Minnesota Fats. Of course, Willie Mosconi we could all understand because of his accomplishments. Minnesota Fasts is where we should draw our attention though. He was largely known because of his entertaining personality.

In my opinion, we will increase viewership and make pool spectatorship more mainstream when we focus more on entertainment then the subtleties of world class pool that only a tiny fraction of the general public will ever see or understand. As diehard pool fans like us, we can only hope that answer doesn't dilute the beauty of the game itself.

Having all that been said, I hope you don't mind me challenging you on this. Trust me, if I ever planned on dumping big money into a pool calcutta, I would seek out your advice first and take it above all others. We just differ on how to increase pool viewership and of course...I could be wrong; I'm wrong often.
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Nice post, and rest assured that no offense is taken. You have debated with civility, clarity, and in a tone of mutual respect. Your opinion matters a lot to me.

There's no need for us to see eye to eye here as we come from different points of view and different experiences. I think I'm much more in tune with the existing pool fan than the prospective fan, and yet the latter, as you seem to sense, may be of far greater importance.

Where we agree is that the focus must be on entertainment value of the game. In fact, the premise of the thread is that some of the pool's entertainment value was compromised by the use of alternate break and many agreed. In my opinion, things like "winner breaks" and "30 second shot clock" cater to the entertainment value of pool more than the needs of the players, and I think Matchroom has shown a keen understanding on these points.

We have slightly different views regarding what would make pool more entertaining, but what's wrong with that? All points of view matter here and this is the kind of debate that AZB is all about.
 
sudocrushms said:
The break is tougher, call pocket, and no early 10s (generally) make 10b much tougher than 9b. A place for both, and 8b, and 1p, and 3c, and and and... Variety is good, but I'll let longer 10b matches differentiate skill.
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Personally I like Ten Ball using the 9-Ball rules; no call shot and the ten counts on the break. If it ain't broke don't fix it! It's much harder to make the ten ball on the break and happens far less frequently than in 9-Ball. Call shot takes the two way shot out of the game. In Ten Ball I say "let 'em rip!"

That's the way we've always played the Bigfoot Ten Ball tournament at DCC and it worked just fine. Unless they've changed it since I left.
 
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fjk said:
I know what you mean. Sure, over the course of a match you can see those subtle differences (if you're a pool nut like us). For the casual fan, watching a 750 run an open table looks the same as an 850. In fact, even for us pool nuts, 750s can play flawless for an entire set. Make the table tougher and stop putting so much emphasis on pattern breaking combined with a little luck, and I think the game gets better for viewers. Plus, we'd get to see their personalities come out more under the pressure. Few enjoy watching emotionless robots run out an easy rack.

How come nobody agrees with me? There's got to be someone. Anyone?
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Where you'll really notice the difference is nearing the end of a close match. Both players know who the better player is and will often act accordingly. The 750 is more likely to dog a shot under pressure than the 850. I've seen it a million times when they fail to get out on an open rack at hill-hill!
 
skogstokig said:
probably also because it's better for the racking integrity in money games. break success relies on a tight, not tilted rack
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9-Ball racking secret. Leave the back three balls slightly loose from the front six. A minute fraction of an inch is enough. You've just given your opponent a dead rack, but don't tell anyone I told you.

I'd only do this when my opponent was being an ass about my racking, usually complaining about the head balls. I'd rack the top six dead solid and the back three also tight. But I'd leave a minute gap they he might not see unless he inspected carefully. I'd love it when they whined about the bad break or slug rack. I'd tell him it's the balls or cloth, lol.
 
jay helfert said:
9-Ball racking secret. Leave the back three balls slightly loose from the front six. A minute fraction of an inch is enough. You've just given your opponent a dead rack, but don't tell anyone I told you.

I'd only do this when my opponent was being an ass about my racking, usually complaining about the head balls. I'd rack the top six dead solid and the back three also tight. But I'd leave a minute gap they he might not see unless he inspected carefully. I'd love it when they whined about the bad break or slug rack. I'd tell him it's the balls or cloth, lol.
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here's a professional ref applying that same magic, earlier today:

 
100% agree with ten ball with nine ball rules. Extra ball mitigates almost all of the effects of easy breaking tables , I don't have to listen to people squabble about call shot BS with ten ball, and I actually like a little luck or fluke shot excitement in anything other than a race to one or two even in low money local tourneys. People remember crazy lucky shots more than someone running out a hanger nine ball rack repeatedly. Everyone usually gets there share of flukes in the long term...although the crafty ones increase their odds.

I trust in Jay, how long has he been involved in pool at this point, half a century basically?
 
jay helfert said:
Personally I like Ten Ball using the 9-Ball rules; no call shot and the ten counts on the break. If it ain't broke don't fix it! It's much harder to make the ten ball on the break and happens far less frequently than in 9-Ball. Call shot takes the two way shot out of the game. In Ten Ball I say "let 'em rip!"

That's the way we've always played the Bigfoot Ten Ball tournament at DCC and it worked just fine. Unless they've changed it since I left.
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If i were running an event, it would be no early 10s EXCEPT on the break. For the reason you noted. I primarily play 10b and can count on one hand the number of times i've made it on the break.
I strongly disagree that you can't play 2-way shots. You see players do it all the time, you just need to be more careful about it than in 9b.

If i want flukes and early ending games, i'll play 9b. I'd rather have more of a distinction between the games.
 
skogstokig said:
did it again in the final. the fillers still won
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Ah, thanks for mentioning that, as I had not been watching the Box Billiards Mixed Doubles Open. I checked, and the Fillers' winning ($40,000) record was:

Matches -- 6 - 0​
Sets -- 12 - 2​
Games -- 48 (+ a shootout win) - 26​
​
Second place ($20,000) went to Ko Ping Chung / Chou Chieh-Yu.
 
sudocrushms said:
... I strongly disagree that you can't play 2-way shots. ...
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Correct. WPA 10-Ball rules do not eliminate the most common form of 2-way shot, where you play to make a ball but leave your opponent safe if you miss. They do, however, eliminate a second type of two-way shot where you try to make either or both of two balls, since WPA rules require that you designate only one ball and one pocket.
 
sudocrushms said:
If i were running an event, it would be no early 10s EXCEPT on the break. For the reason you noted. I primarily play 10b and can count on one hand the number of times i've made it on the break.
I strongly disagree that you can't play 2-way shots. You see players do it all the time, you just need to be more careful about it than in 9b.

If i want flukes and early ending games, i'll play 9b. I'd rather have more of a distinction between the games.
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You can't play two way shots in Call Shot Ten Ball. That's what I was referring too. Plus in your version of Ten Ball there would be no combinations or billiards on the ten ball. Takes a lot of skill and interest out of the game imo.
 
jay helfert said:
You can't play two way shots in Call Shot Ten Ball. That's what I was referring too. Plus in your version of Ten Ball there would be no combinations or billiards on the ten ball. Takes a lot of skill and interest out of the game imo.
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That's what 9-ball is for. <shrugs>

Also, you can play combos/caroms on the 10, it just doesn't win the game. Spot up and play on.
 
AtLarge said:
Ah, thanks for mentioning that, as I had not been watching the Box Billiards Mixed Doubles Open. I checked, and the Fillers' winning ($40,000) record was:

Matches -- 6 - 0​
Sets -- 12 - 2​
Games -- 48 (+ a shootout win) - 26​
​
Second place ($20,000) went to Ko Ping Chung / Chou Chieh-Yu.
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i only watched three matches. kind of weird format with pairs from different countries, and a bit hard to follow. pia saved josh a couple times so that was fun.
 
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