It is nothing like that at all. I mean at all, your attempt at an analogy is a complete failure...
Chump cuemakers
- Thread starter cuemaker03
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It is nothing like that at all. I mean at all, your attempt at an analogy is a complete failure...
Another way to look at it is that a cuemaker who can play will most likely settle on something they prefer while a cue maker who is not very good will probably build whatever the customer prefers.
If you are not a great player then you will almost always look to others for feedback and validation of how your cues hit. If you are a great player then you really don't need much more than confirmation by your pool playing peers.
For the question of whether I would buy a cue from cue maker who is not a great player. Of course I would. The reason is because I am the one who determines whether I like the hit of the cue or not. The playing résumé of the cue maker has no bearing on my personal reaction to the instrument I am using.
If you are not a great player then you will almost always look to others for feedback and validation of how your cues hit. If you are a great player then you really don't need much more than confirmation by your pool playing peers.
For the question of whether I would buy a cue from cue maker who is not a great player. Of course I would. The reason is because I am the one who determines whether I like the hit of the cue or not. The playing résumé of the cue maker has no bearing on my personal reaction to the instrument I am using.
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Like, you don't have to be a High Diver to know that hitting the water at a bad angle is like slamming your face into concrete.
And you don't have to be able to rope a steer to know the quality of leather that you put into your cases.
J/K.
As you mentioned, there are makers that will build you what you want and there are others that won't allow a person to deviate too far, if any at all further than what they consider goes into their cue line.
Some will tell you, "this is how I build a cue, if you don't like it, pick another maker.
If a maker has a reputation for building a cue that has certain desirable characteristics and that is what he known for, he isn't going to let you tell him how to build your cue, lest your ideas gets you a dog of a cue and the eventual rep falls on the maker.
Thats fair, right?
If you are lucky enuff to get to the front of the list for a Searing, he builds you your cue.
Beyond choosing some wood, veneer colors etc, that is about all the input you will probably be allowed. Maybe I am far off on that one.
But, the question remains. Is CueMaker 03 a maker of pool cues.
You would have to have been following the saga of Tony of Gwerra Cues in the Cue Maker Forums.
Eric, (Sugar Tree) was very helpful to me. He wouldn't come right out, and I wouldn't want him to anyway, and tell me exactly how he builds his cues.
He would tell me certain things and leave certain things out. If I wanted to know and had the desire, I would do a bit of research on my own and figure out the missing pieces. Eric left a small puzzle for me to work on. Trial and error and I would surely blow up a lot of decent pieces of wood figuring it out. He wasn't going to hold my hand that tight.
Now, he did the same for Tony Benfica previously. That is until the rumors started going around that Tony now builds cues just like Eric Crisp does.
One of the things that Eric asked me not to do is relay his info on and pretend that it is mine. Pretty fair I think.
There is also a long list of makers that will absolutely not answer their phone if they see Tony's number come up.
Hmmm, must be a good reason for that.
And then the story of how he offered to be the go between for a great wood supplier for another good builder. This was because of a language barrier.
Guess who ended up with a wood supplier and who got dicked?
And you don't have to be able to rope a steer to know the quality of leather that you put into your cases.
J/K.
As you mentioned, there are makers that will build you what you want and there are others that won't allow a person to deviate too far, if any at all further than what they consider goes into their cue line.
Some will tell you, "this is how I build a cue, if you don't like it, pick another maker.
If a maker has a reputation for building a cue that has certain desirable characteristics and that is what he known for, he isn't going to let you tell him how to build your cue, lest your ideas gets you a dog of a cue and the eventual rep falls on the maker.
Thats fair, right?
If you are lucky enuff to get to the front of the list for a Searing, he builds you your cue.
Beyond choosing some wood, veneer colors etc, that is about all the input you will probably be allowed. Maybe I am far off on that one.
But, the question remains. Is CueMaker 03 a maker of pool cues.
You would have to have been following the saga of Tony of Gwerra Cues in the Cue Maker Forums.
Eric, (Sugar Tree) was very helpful to me. He wouldn't come right out, and I wouldn't want him to anyway, and tell me exactly how he builds his cues.
He would tell me certain things and leave certain things out. If I wanted to know and had the desire, I would do a bit of research on my own and figure out the missing pieces. Eric left a small puzzle for me to work on. Trial and error and I would surely blow up a lot of decent pieces of wood figuring it out. He wasn't going to hold my hand that tight.
Now, he did the same for Tony Benfica previously. That is until the rumors started going around that Tony now builds cues just like Eric Crisp does.
One of the things that Eric asked me not to do is relay his info on and pretend that it is mine. Pretty fair I think.
There is also a long list of makers that will absolutely not answer their phone if they see Tony's number come up.
Hmmm, must be a good reason for that.
And then the story of how he offered to be the go between for a great wood supplier for another good builder. This was because of a language barrier.
Guess who ended up with a wood supplier and who got dicked?
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I get a kick out of these cue stick threads. I once tested a cue to see how it played. I placed it on the table and waited, it didn't play at all.
Now, if "how it played" means how it feels when you play, well now that's a subjective thing, isn't it? What feels good to one player, may not to another.
Wrap, no wrap. Pro taper, conical taper. Heavy, light. Stainless joint, plastic joint. Hard tip, soft tip. And on and on and on. Ridiculous.
Now, if "how it played" means how it feels when you play, well now that's a subjective thing, isn't it? What feels good to one player, may not to another.
Wrap, no wrap. Pro taper, conical taper. Heavy, light. Stainless joint, plastic joint. Hard tip, soft tip. And on and on and on. Ridiculous.
Well on the subject of sharing information if someone goes out of their way to help you then it's only fair to give them credit somehow.
Regarding the actual topic though I once asked Joey Gold why he won't change anything for a customer. His answer was that he plays better than his customers and knows how a cue should play.
Thats not what I meant John. Tony was regurgitating info that he learned not only from Eric, but other makers that were helpful, as if it were his own.
That was what Eric asked of me after the Tony affair. If I relate anything, give credit or not but don't pretend it was my hard work that I had figured out.
Leon Sly was the first maker to offer help. we used to get on the phone, me in middle Canada and he on the east Coast and BS for an hr or 2, 3000 miles away.
Sometimes we actually got some cue making stuff in on the calls. Seriously, he helped me out on lots. KJ from KJ Cues, Chuck Starkey. All good guys. And of course Eric as well. He is a very confident cue maker. As in, he wasn't afraid to tell me info that took him many years to come by. He knew that it would still take me a long time to get it right.
Is that a bad thing either? Some players know exactly what they want in a cue. Maybe from years of playing and or collecting and testing many cues.
Maybe a Pink Ivory forearm, Tulip wood butt, and a Maple butt sleeve. Topped off with a burgundy with white spec nylon wrap. And then put lightening bolt decals on it before you clear coat. Saweeeet! Oh, I forgot. Alternating laminations of bamboo and bowling alley wood for shafts. Wouldn't it be cool if you had that one and it just happened to play, Lights out and it Hit a Ton on top of it.
That was what Eric asked of me after the Tony affair. If I relate anything, give credit or not but don't pretend it was my hard work that I had figured out.
Leon Sly was the first maker to offer help. we used to get on the phone, me in middle Canada and he on the east Coast and BS for an hr or 2, 3000 miles away.
Sometimes we actually got some cue making stuff in on the calls. Seriously, he helped me out on lots. KJ from KJ Cues, Chuck Starkey. All good guys. And of course Eric as well. He is a very confident cue maker. As in, he wasn't afraid to tell me info that took him many years to come by. He knew that it would still take me a long time to get it right.
Is that a bad thing either? Some players know exactly what they want in a cue. Maybe from years of playing and or collecting and testing many cues.
Maybe a Pink Ivory forearm, Tulip wood butt, and a Maple butt sleeve. Topped off with a burgundy with white spec nylon wrap. And then put lightening bolt decals on it before you clear coat. Saweeeet! Oh, I forgot. Alternating laminations of bamboo and bowling alley wood for shafts. Wouldn't it be cool if you had that one and it just happened to play, Lights out and it Hit a Ton on top of it.
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Pay attention John. 2 links to Tony playing pool on the TV table on UStream.
Looks like he couldn't make a ball if his life depended on it.
Sorry, did I accidentally take the thread in a different direction?
Maybe try and get it back on track then.
Looks like he couldn't make a ball if his life depended on it.
Sorry, did I accidentally take the thread in a different direction?
Maybe try and get it back on track then.
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Ok but again what does he have to do with the discussion? How good does Eric play for that matter?
My opinion is that of all the cues I have tried by people who I personally know to play my speed or much better they all build good hitting cues.
Searing, Stroud, Gold. Hunter, Gulyassy, Gilbert to name a few. All great hitting cues in my personal opinion.
I played with Tony's cue here and it hit pretty good. We know that Eric learned some from Bobby Hunter. Sugartree cues hit really well. So what part of that is because Eric can play well (don't know if he can or not) and what part is Bobby Hunter's help?
I guess if you want to discuss Tony then my only opinion as it relates to the thread is that IF he can't play as you say, then it's quite possible for someone to pick the brains of good cue makers and themselves then be able to make a good cue because I have personally shot with at least one good cue that Tony made.
Which is to say again that the prowess of the cue maker doesn't matter much because each player has to discover for themselves what feels good to them. Where I do think that the cue maker's pool ability comes into play is when it comes to testing the instrument out. Think of a race car driver who was also a mechanic. There has to be some advantage for a driver to be able to take his own creation out on the track and run it at world class levels.
But by the same token there are brilliant mechanics who couldn't make a lap at 300mph without wrecking the car.
So the discussion is really more academic than concrete because as Kevin pointed out good cues come from both ends of the spectrum.
Knowing how to use a sword and being a good swordsman are quite different, just as knowing how to use a cue and being a good player are also different. Plenty of C players know how to use a cue. Some even have really powerful strokes. Others have far more cue knowledge than many pros. That doesn't make them good pool players.
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Regarding making what the customer wants as opposed to making what you want;
When you as a maker agree to construct a cue according to the customer's desires, taper, balance point, woods, etc... then you also know that the resulting feel of the cue could be quite different than the cue you made the week before. That's not a bad thing but it's also not something generally that lasting reputations are built on.
I know this from personal experience. What kind of cases do we make? Well, almost all of them. While we are known as a good case making company we are not held in as high of a regard as say, Justis or Phil Eastwood or Whitten, Melton, Matcase or even Armour to name a few examples.
And the main reason I think is because each of those makers has specialized in a look and feel and construction method that they do not vary from. This creates a consistency in the mind of the public that equates to a higher level of craftsmanship. And this is seen throughout art. Artists who tend to develop a style that they become known for are more highly regarded and well known than artists who are adept in more mediums.
No one cares if you can paint flowers in perfect detail. They care if you can do it ten times the size of normal life and your name is Georgia O'Keeffe.
Do the guys at Fender all play guitar at world class levels? I know the people at Fury can't draw their ball yet Kelly Fisher and others play world class PERFECT pool with their cues.
I think with so many cue makers and so many great cues out there it boils down to this. With few exceptions it's hard to buy a bad cue these days and with all the information out there on cue making it's hard to build a bad one. Maybe not so easy to build a GREAT one but for the most part most people are building cues that are good enough to win championships.
When you as a maker agree to construct a cue according to the customer's desires, taper, balance point, woods, etc... then you also know that the resulting feel of the cue could be quite different than the cue you made the week before. That's not a bad thing but it's also not something generally that lasting reputations are built on.
I know this from personal experience. What kind of cases do we make? Well, almost all of them. While we are known as a good case making company we are not held in as high of a regard as say, Justis or Phil Eastwood or Whitten, Melton, Matcase or even Armour to name a few examples.
And the main reason I think is because each of those makers has specialized in a look and feel and construction method that they do not vary from. This creates a consistency in the mind of the public that equates to a higher level of craftsmanship. And this is seen throughout art. Artists who tend to develop a style that they become known for are more highly regarded and well known than artists who are adept in more mediums.
No one cares if you can paint flowers in perfect detail. They care if you can do it ten times the size of normal life and your name is Georgia O'Keeffe.
Do the guys at Fender all play guitar at world class levels? I know the people at Fury can't draw their ball yet Kelly Fisher and others play world class PERFECT pool with their cues.
I think with so many cue makers and so many great cues out there it boils down to this. With few exceptions it's hard to buy a bad cue these days and with all the information out there on cue making it's hard to build a bad one. Maybe not so easy to build a GREAT one but for the most part most people are building cues that are good enough to win championships.
It seems to me that a more legitimate question would be.... Would you buy a cue from a guy who doesn't play with one of his own cues? If he isn't willing to use his own creation then why would I?
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Can't rember
Rambo and Balabushka weren't players. I mean playerrrrzzz.
Tad is in good company. I would buy and have bought a few of each.
Nick
Rambo and Balabushka weren't players. I mean playerrrrzzz.
Tad is in good company. I would buy and have bought a few of each.
Nick
Radius or no radius on inlays is just personal taste. Either can be done with precision or either can be done sloppy.
I have won so many tournaments that I lost count, but I still play bad at times. I burned over 40 trophies many years ago. But what does it have to do with how good of a cue I can make? I do think someone who can play a little will know what a good playing cue feels like, but that does not mean lessor players can't tell what feels good also, even though they can't run the racks.
Steve could play. He just does not play much anymore. So don't put Steve in the C player bracket just yet. That is unless you want him to rob the tournament.
There is a cuemaker I know that plays with a Huebler jump break cue.
He used to play with a McDermott. Some promote him as one of the best cuemakers in the world. He even asked me to sponsor him one time and him play with my cue. This guy can play (formerly low pro level). I asked him why he does not play with his own cue and he said he was tired of people begging him to sell them his personal cue. He said they just keep throwing hundred dollar bills on the table until the temptation is too great and he takes it.
Now you know why he isn't and maybe why you should.
The thread has gotten off track. Let's get back to the topic at hand.
As to the original question.....
No, I wouldn't buy a cue from a maker that can't run out the door. Although hit and feel is very subjective, the maker should have some knowledge of how a good cue should feel in your hand and the feedback it gives when you hit a ball. Without more than basic understanding of what the desired end result is, I think it would be hard to put together a product that good players will like. This is especially true if the player actually knows what he wants and can have an intelligent conversation with the maker to let him know what he is really looking for. By this I'm not referring to all the sheep that THINK they know what they want. There is far too many people who just ACT like they know what they really want. That fact is proven on this site everyday. Buyers with little knowledge just buy what everyone tells them to buy without really having an understanding of how the different specs will effect their game. I really have to laugh at all the people who go out and buy low deflection shafts. Most of them have no clue what it will do to their game but just rely on all the BS advertising telling them they NEED to have an LD shaft. There are many people in my local league that went out and bought Predators or OB or what ever gimmick product is popular now thinking it would instantly improve their game. The truth they should really spend some money on lessons or table time to improve their game because there is no magic formula that's going to help without putting in the time.
My question is, should a good cuemaker sell a cue to someone who is a poor player? I recently saw a video of two players playing in a tournament and neither player could run two balls. If I were a custom cuemaker I certainly wouldn't want someone like that playing with my cue and giving it a bad name. Lol! :wink:
No, I wouldn't buy a cue from a maker that can't run out the door. Although hit and feel is very subjective, the maker should have some knowledge of how a good cue should feel in your hand and the feedback it gives when you hit a ball. Without more than basic understanding of what the desired end result is, I think it would be hard to put together a product that good players will like. This is especially true if the player actually knows what he wants and can have an intelligent conversation with the maker to let him know what he is really looking for. By this I'm not referring to all the sheep that THINK they know what they want. There is far too many people who just ACT like they know what they really want. That fact is proven on this site everyday. Buyers with little knowledge just buy what everyone tells them to buy without really having an understanding of how the different specs will effect their game. I really have to laugh at all the people who go out and buy low deflection shafts. Most of them have no clue what it will do to their game but just rely on all the BS advertising telling them they NEED to have an LD shaft. There are many people in my local league that went out and bought Predators or OB or what ever gimmick product is popular now thinking it would instantly improve their game. The truth they should really spend some money on lessons or table time to improve their game because there is no magic formula that's going to help without putting in the time.
My question is, should a good cuemaker sell a cue to someone who is a poor player? I recently saw a video of two players playing in a tournament and neither player could run two balls. If I were a custom cuemaker I certainly wouldn't want someone like that playing with my cue and giving it a bad name. Lol! :wink:
Sounds good, any other opinions?