classic old school vs. new school pros
- Thread starter westcoast
- Start date
T
THE SILENCER
Guest
well, if the pros of yesteryear, were in their prime, 1945 for instance, and played the pros of today in straight pool, there would be not one pro today that could ever win in straight pool. irving crane, willie mosconi, ralph greenleaf, jimmy moore, they were the greatest straight pool players of ALL time!, however, if you took those same pros, in their prime, and had them play 9-ball with the pros today, the pros today would KILL the old timers. they didn't really play 9-ball all that much. true luther lassiter, would have given them the best match, but short of that, neils fiejn, mika immonen, ralf souquet, franscisco bustamante would KILL them.
westcoast said:
Great question. I think I need to stick up for both the old and new players here. I'm quite certain that had nine-ball been the game that determined the world champion in their day, Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, et al, would have played it comparably to today's best. As you've noted, Lassiter is probably the only guy from yesteryear generally considered among the greatest nineballers ever. Still, the comparison is impossible. Don't forget that the Texas Express nineball is less than 25 years old. The common version of nineball played in the old days was called shootout, and balls were sometimes spotted, a scratch on the break meant ball in hand in the kitchen, and many more pushouts were permitted. Many of the straight pool legends retired without playing a single rack of Texas Express nine ball!
Perhaps those who played at the hinge of times (meaning when the straight pool era was transformed into the nineball era) offer the greatest hint of what kind of nineballers the great straight pool legends might have become. Four such players are Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, and Allen Hopkins, and I feel that, through their efforts, they have demonstrated that great straight poolers can be Hall of Fame nineballers when they switch games.
Simlarly, I believe that today's greatest nineballers could learn to play straight pool comparably to the old masters if straight pool suddlenly became the professional game of choice. Today's players are as talented as any that ever played, and the talent pool is deeper.
In short, it's best to appreciate the excellence of players from both eras, and to recognize that the best could have succeeded in any era.
westcoast said:
It was mostly because of TV. Straight pool is just too tough to follow for the causal fan, and has ebbs and flows that take longer to develop.
For good TV, good shots need to be very easily identifiable by even the most casual of fans, and that's why nineball makes for better TV than straight pool. Simlarly, snooker, which developed a huge TV following, is a game that has the advantage of being extremely simple to follow. On the other hand, it would be hard to imagine the absolutely beautiful game of three cushion billiards ever making for exciting TV.
TV, forgive the pun, calls the shots, and always will.
sjm try to get the 3 cushion billiard tapes from accustats. Not just one or two but the whole set from the Vegas tournament. Seeing them from beginning to the end was such a wonderful beautiful exhibit of the game. Todays current crap of short race 9-ball, trick shot competition, etc. cannot compete with the sheer brilliance of players like Blomdahl, Sayginher, Jaspers, etc. It is worth the investment.
1
14.1
Guest
Hey, This is my first reply after a long layoff from this board, not pool.
I think the arguement hinges on whether it would be easier to adapt to changes in equipment/cloth or easier to adapt to differant games.
For instance, I've heard Rempe, who's career I think spans both era's, complain that Simonis 860 made the game too easy because it is so easy to move the ball around the table versus the old napped cloth.
This would seem to favor the old school players, especially if the games were played on old equipment.
But how long would it take a player that played 14.1 almost exclusively to develop a workable 9-Ball break?
If you devised some kind of imaginary competition where you played a certain number of games, each on appropriate equipment, my vote would favor the old-timers, because I think it would be easier to adapt to the longer less precise stroke and fast cloth in modern 9-ball than it would be to learn all the precise position, pack reading, and equipment variables of the old days
I think the arguement hinges on whether it would be easier to adapt to changes in equipment/cloth or easier to adapt to differant games.
For instance, I've heard Rempe, who's career I think spans both era's, complain that Simonis 860 made the game too easy because it is so easy to move the ball around the table versus the old napped cloth.
This would seem to favor the old school players, especially if the games were played on old equipment.
But how long would it take a player that played 14.1 almost exclusively to develop a workable 9-Ball break?
If you devised some kind of imaginary competition where you played a certain number of games, each on appropriate equipment, my vote would favor the old-timers, because I think it would be easier to adapt to the longer less precise stroke and fast cloth in modern 9-ball than it would be to learn all the precise position, pack reading, and equipment variables of the old days
yobagua said:
Agreed, Yobagua, but I aready own many three cushion tapes. I play the game respectably and absolutely love watching it. I've merely contended that, like straight pool, it's not as easily followed by the casual fan, making it less likely to gain favor with TV producers than the absolutely hit-you-over-the-head obvious games of snooker and 9ball.
Keith McCready
Pro Player
14.1 said:
Well said, 14.1, and I agree with everything you state in your post!
Earl Strickland was one of the most devastating players in the late '80s and early '90s. Whenever I made it to the finals, I would always be staring at an Earl or a Mike Sigel. I usually ended up being the birde's maid to these phenoms. Let's not forget that the 9-ball rules have changed which resulted in a whole different game strategy, especially with the advent of the jump cue.
Although 8-ball is the game that seems to be least respected by most quality players, it is by far the game most easily understood by the average fan. I think people would enjoy watching the ladies more if they played eight ball instead of nine ball too; at least they have to break up clusters and navigate more interference balls. Bar players might perk up when they realize that some lady might come in and drill them at their own game.
I have an old tape of snooker on ESPN and the game looks great on TV but the majority of pool halls don't have quality billiard or snooker tables. Billiards would show up great on even crappy tvs but hardly anyone plays the game in America anymore- it's hard for pool rooms to buy an expensive heated Euro billiard table that doesn't get played on Fri. and Sat. night when college kids are waiting in line to pay 10-12 bucks an hour to play.
Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter would do fine today given the same chances as modern players. These guys were freaks of nature and talent of that level will always make its mark; consider other disciplines like Mozart in music, Gauss or Einstein in physics, classical painters. These guys never had the training tools kids today have to speed up the learning process but who today is comparable?
I have an old tape of snooker on ESPN and the game looks great on TV but the majority of pool halls don't have quality billiard or snooker tables. Billiards would show up great on even crappy tvs but hardly anyone plays the game in America anymore- it's hard for pool rooms to buy an expensive heated Euro billiard table that doesn't get played on Fri. and Sat. night when college kids are waiting in line to pay 10-12 bucks an hour to play.
Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter would do fine today given the same chances as modern players. These guys were freaks of nature and talent of that level will always make its mark; consider other disciplines like Mozart in music, Gauss or Einstein in physics, classical painters. These guys never had the training tools kids today have to speed up the learning process but who today is comparable?
westcoast said:
In the West, I think 9 Ball became popular in the pool rooms before it hit TV because of the gambling aspect. In the early 1970's it quickly became the game of choice.
Any great pool player of the past would be a great pool player today with adequate practice of the game being played. The old guys were better at the games they played and the newer guys are better at the games they play. But a great pool shooter is just going to be great no matter when. It may take them a year to convert to 9 ball or straight pool but the gifts are there.
Chris
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