Cliff Joyner

[watchez]

Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.

 

[Diane]

Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.

If you are sincerely interested in sponsoring Cliff, I will call the IRS and investigate.
I'm sure all this will be worked out in a contract with the possibility of the IPT presented checks and IRS forms to both individuals.
Just let me know...

 

[Diane]

The expected ROI is actually much more complicated than that, but even with the numbers you've suggested, $8K and no time to make $35K is a good return. $0K and working at it full-time to make $65K is a job. The person who invests the $8K will still be able to work their regular job or business, the pool player won't be able to if they want to give it a serious go. The only way the player has all to gain and nothing to lose is if their time is valued at $0.

By the way, while we're on the topic of ridiculous analogies, there is no logical way to compare this to a real estate deal or a stock trading deal where the player would get a commission of 6-15%. Neither party is an 'agent', they are both 'principals' in the deal.

A better analogy if you don't like the one about horse breeding is where someone needs some money to get a newspaper stand started so they take on a silent partner. During the course of the next year, one takes on the financial risk and the other takes on the time, effort and day-to-day responsibilities of the business. Both parties share in the profits or suffer the failures according to the initial agreement.

Cheers,
RC

BRAVO! I bow my head to you with sincere gratitude and respect!!!

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Diane,
I sent you a PM...could you check it at your conveinence?
Thanks,
Terry

 

[sixpack]

I headed out, catch you tomorrow.


Eric

Have a great evening.

btw - I think we're in violent agreement here in a way.

If a mortgage company loaned you $8K and you had to pay back $35K the first year it would be usury. That's a 438% return roughly.

The venture capital analogy is probably the best one either of us have suggested.

You were playing devil's advocate, and I was playing devil's advocate to your position and now we're so far off-topic that it really doesn't matter.

As for me, if I had the money lying around, I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. It's the kind of gamble I like. I have invested in a couple of golfers in the past.

Cheers,
RC

 

[frankncali]

Theres alot of risk for the invester but very little $$$$ when compared to
the max return. Of course thats not fair so we need to look at the
minimum.
The worst is the investor is out around 6-10k. Two Qs and some expenses.
If Cliff makes it and is able to participate for the next two years then the return would be all but guaranteed. Maybe very little profit but surely the original investment would be returned.
Theres still a risk in the player not being able to participate for some reason or another.
Cliff is a good enough player that one could reasonablly see good results
as long as the attention level was given to the IPT and not the smaller events and gambling. If the IPT is a Pro Tour then the players are going to have to finally treat pool like a profession.
I would not think it unreasonable for Cliff to make someone a nice return
on their money.
I think a 2-3 year agreement would be considerablly better for the investor. Maybe the 65-35 for year one and then 80-20 for year 2 and
10% for a final year. The contract could even have a top out number that
voids the remainder. Say Cliff makes 750 by mid way in year 2 then the
partnership would dissolve and the monies splt then.
In the music world and golf world these type contracts are common.
A friend of a friend used to have such a backer on the small tours while
trying to qualify. They formed a legal partnership as a corporation(or something like that) and all money was placed in that comapnies name.
There were set time tables for the money to be distributed or for the backer to not renew the investment. I know the kid made
a little one year but never really made a splash. The backer was very rich and was a golf fan. He did not make a nickel as far as I know. The player
was very appreciative as he had no way of trying to pursue his dream without giving up something.
The IRS would be a major concern of mine just making sure that there are no back payments from either party that would be garnished.

 

[Diane]

2006 IPT Schedule!

Just got an e-mail from the IPT and they have posted the 2006 schedule on their website. These events total over $8,000,000 in prize money and I myself would love to see a top player like Cliff get a piece of this pie!
Come on guys, if you know someone, pitch it to 'em!

 

[enzo]

cliff fan

i like cliff a lot, almost matched up with him once, he seemed really nice and just wanted top play. a good guy. i must respectfully say however, if cliff can't get somebody to put up 2000 with his game he doesn't want it bad enough. i mean, that would be easy if he was asking the right people (billiard supply owners, pool hall owners....). just tell then you'll wear their shirts in ipt events if you make it on or something like that.

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

I think it's great you're trying to find a sponsor for Cliff, Tiger Woods has several sponsors. I would hope that my second favorite poker player Josh Arieh would gather his poker buddies and jump on this band wagon.
If anyone is cashing in on the IPT it will be Cliff Joyner. Thanks for being a good friend Diane wish him all the best for us
B&C

 

[onepocketchump]

Just a general question for all the experts out there.....how does Uncle Sam view a partnership such as this? meaning, who pays the taxes on the $100,000 that is earned? Does the player pay all or 65%? If the backer is expected to foot all expenses, can he deduct that from his taxes? Someone call the IRS and let me know.

If the partnership is a corporation then the corporation is taxed on the money earned after expenses. Each partner is taxed individually on money they receive from the corporation.

If 100,000 were earned by the corporation with 20,000 in expenses then there would be 80,000 left over to divide. So, if the partners were to pay each other 40,000 each then they would each be taxed on 40,000 of income. The corporation would have no income as it's expenses would be the same as it's earnings.

Their are many ways to structure a partnership to legitimately sponsor a pool player and make sure the money gets divided.

John

 

[jay helfert]

Cliff and the IPT

Just got an e-mail from the IPT and they have posted the 2006 schedule on their website. These events total over $8,000,000 in prize money and I myself would love to see a top player like Cliff get a piece of this pie!
Come on guys, if you know someone, pitch it to 'em!

Diane,
These qualifiers are not a piece of cake. Even a player like Cliff is a big underdog to make the top two. It is definitely a longshot proposition. That being said, I have made money with Cliff, chopping up 11K only two years ago. If he wants to come to L.A. and play at Hard Times, I will put him in for the 2K. and if he makes it on tour I will take 33% of his winnings in year one, 25% in year two and 15% thereafter. If he can get a better deal, good for him. I will also provide him with accommodations in Los Angeles.
The way I see it, it is a total longshot, about thirty to one against. So for this I want a chance to win something. 2K is not chump change to risk.

 

[RoadAgent]

Thanks for your support JAM!

I know their are backers out there that would love to do this...the forum is just an engine to get the info out there! It never hurts to try!

Not for 65/35 that sucks when you are footing the whole bill airfare ect.Good luck. I love Cliff and all ,played against him in quite a few tourneys but damn some 50/ 50 should be in order..

 

[ironman]

Diane,
These qualifiers are not a piece of cake. Even a player like Cliff is a big underdog to make the top two. It is definitely a longshot proposition. That being said, I have made money with Cliff, chopping up 11K only two years ago. If he wants to come to L.A. and play at Hard Times, I will put him in for the 2K. and if he makes it on tour I will take 33% of his winnings in year one, 25% in year two and 15% thereafter. If he can get a better deal, good for him. I will also provide him with accommodations in Los Angeles.
The way I see it, it is a total longshot, about thirty to one against. So for this I want a chance to win something. 2K is not chump change to risk.

Well Cliff, Diane, there it is. Plus you know exactly who you are dealing with.
Lewis!

 

[pokerhammer]

Stock?

Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

 

[sixpack]

Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

I had a golf friend who did something similar. He hasn't made it yet, but I'd much rather invest a few dollars in somebody trying to live their dream than be bilked out of it by '.com' scammers.

RC

 

[Diane]

Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

I do like this idea a lot! However we don't have much time before the last 2 US qualifiers. I wish I had done this a month ago!
I do very much appreciate this and I will relay it to him...not gonna rule it out completely!
I've been told that an LLC would likely needed to be formed with any proceeds being paid by the IPT to the corp and then the $ would be dispursed (after expenses) to each party. An LLC takes about 3 weeks or so to form so in the mean time, a temporary agreement could be signed that should he gain his tour card, the LLC would be formed.

 

[Eric.]

Cliff should sale stock in himself. A well know golfer friend of mine did this a few years back. He started with 50% of the entire stock for himself to own. The other 50% was sold to individuals. The entire amount of stock sold (50%) was $120,000, the amount he figured he needed for a year on the Nike Tour (now Nationwide). Each share was $100 (1200 total). The more you bought the bigger % you got. He structured it in a way that the "stock holders" received dividends for 5 years regardless of where and what tour he was playing, unless of course he didn't make any money the first year. Long story short, he made a little money the first year after expenses and entree fees and then qualified for the pga tour at Q-school. He hasn't looked back. One guy bought 500 shares and got back over $400,000. Not a bad investment.

That's a great idea


Eric >echo?

 

[Eric.]

Have a great evening.

btw - I think we're in violent agreement here in a way.

If a mortgage company loaned you $8K and you had to pay back $35K the first year it would be usury. That's a 438% return roughly.

But...the time value of a 30 year loan is... about 400%. Lower short term risk because of the collateral=lower profits(lower interest rate)

The venture capital analogy is probably the best one either of us have suggested.

Since you are familiar with this structure, you probably know what the VC's want in return for money invested in an Entrepreneur. It's loansharking but because we all have Business degrees, it's "business" and legal.

You were playing devil's advocate, and I was playing devil's advocate to your position and now we're so far off-topic that it really doesn't matter.

As for me, if I had the money lying around, I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. It's the kind of gamble I like. I have invested in a couple of golfers in the past.

Cheers,
RC

Getting back on topic...

I suggested getting the members of this forum together to back Cliff. I could easily back Cliff myself. There's not enough incentive for me to do that. But, I am a poolplayer too and I would help out another poolplayer. I'd be willing to put forth the time and effort to help get my original idea off the ground (set up a Cliff Joyner 'IPO'). I would be willing to sell 'shares' of Cliff at $100 a share. 100 shares are for sale, you can buy as many shares as you like. Your cashout is based on how many shares you own. If there is enough member support, I will arrange for the legal work to establish a "Joynor, Inc, LLC" and make arrangements for a trust fund for the monies contributed and monies won on the IPT tour. I'll also buy the first share. Anyone want shares of Joyner, Inc?


Eric

 

[onepocketchump]

I will buy a share of Cliff Joyner Inc. I like the way it sounds. And I like the way it's main asset PLAYS!

John

 

[lil brian]

Llc

First of all if you form an LLC it can not be a INC. A incorporated company is a corporation not a LLC. You can have a LLC that is TAXED as a corporation or a partnership though.

As far as set up for an "IPO" of Cliff Joyner you have to think about if shares are sold to another individual and so on. This changes the whole structure of the members of the LLC in the first place.

I own close to 10 million in real estate so proper structuring of any entity is a must....

Brian