Closed vs open bridge - Efren Reyes

[fastone371]

I was being facetious, but I can see how I failed. I agree with you, 100%.
.

I am pretty slow, not the sharpest knife in the drawer if you know what I mean.
That should explain why I didnt catch on. I think if someone is going to imitate a pool style it should be Django's anyway, it works for him though.

 

[Island Drive]

The bridge hand is much like a club selection in a golf bag but, there are soooooo many more clubs at a pool players disposal. When your shot has rails/balls/bridging area problems....getting your bridge hand comfortable, then you body is KEY so ya can swing-it' straight . They go hand in foot :grin-square:

 

[paultex]

You can get more resistance with a closed bridge and thats a good thing for certain shots.

 

[dr_dave]

What I'm wondering is why Reyes decided to switch to using an open bridge, at a time when he was in the middle of his prime and already winning a plethora of major tournaments using a closed bridge hand. Did the trend to use the open bridge hand come in the late 90s? Was it something with his eyesight that made using an open bridge a necessity?

There has definitely has been a trend (over the last 20 years or so) in the pool world away from using a closed bridge and an upright stance toward using an open bridge and a very low stance (as is commonplace in the snooker world). Many of the reasons for this trend are summarized on the open vs. close bridge resource page.

For those interested, I recently wrote an article for Billiards Digest dealing with this topic. Here it is:

"Pool Myths – Part 3: Open Vs. Closed Bridge" (BD, August, 2017).

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Island Drive]

There has definitely has been a trend (over the last 20 years or so) in the pool world away from using a closed bridge and an upright stance toward using an open bridge and a very low stance (as is commonplace in the snooker world). Many of the reasons for this trend are summarized on the open vs. close bridge resource page.

For those interested, I recently wrote an article for Billiards Digest dealing with this topic. Here it is:

"Pool Myths – Part 3: Open Vs. Closed Bridge" (BD, August, 2017).

Enjoy,
Dave

In the sixties with the rag cloth, the closed bridge was a must moving whitey multiple rails. Eliminated miscues.

 

[HawaiianEye]

In the sixties with the rag cloth, the closed bridge was a must moving whitey multiple rails. Eliminated miscues.

I wish there were more pool rooms with nice equipment, but slower cloth. I enjoy being being able to let the stroke out.

Some of the tables today are so fast that it make me feel like I'm bunting all the time.

When I'm playing on super fast table, I hit the balls hard and play with a "dead" cue ball. I try to keep shallow angles where I can keep the cue ball coming off the rails with brute force and very little spin.

I'd much rather "muscle" the ball around the table than spin it everywhere.

 

[dr_dave]

There has definitely has been a trend (over the last 20 years or so) in the pool world away from using a closed bridge and an upright stance toward using an open bridge and a very low stance (as is commonplace in the snooker world). Many of the reasons for this trend are summarized on the open vs. close bridge resource page.

For those interested, I recently wrote an article for Billiards Digest dealing with this topic. Here it is:

"Pool Myths – Part 3: Open Vs. Closed Bridge" (BD, August, 2017).

In the sixties with the rag cloth, the closed bridge was a must moving whitey multiple rails. Eliminated miscues.

I think this a problem only for people who tighten their grip during the stroke into the ball. Here's a pertinent quote from my article:

Now for people who tend to lift the tip up during a stroke, especially with shots requiring more power, a closed bridge can help ensure a more-accurate tip contact point and help prevent possible miscues. However, tip lift is due to stroke flaws, usually grip tightening and/or elbow drop during the stroke into the ball. So tip lift is a stroke fundamentals issues … not a bridge issue. In my opinion, eliminating the grip or stroke flaws is a better approach than using a closed bridge as a “Band-Aid” to limit bad consequences of poor technique.

Regards,
Dave

 

[alstl]

I think this a problem only for people who tighten their grip during the stroke into the ball. Here's a pertinent quote from my article:

Now for people who tend to lift the tip up during a stroke, especially with shots requiring more power, a closed bridge can help ensure a more-accurate tip contact point and help prevent possible miscues. However, tip lift is due to stroke flaws, usually grip tightening and/or elbow drop during the stroke into the ball. So tip lift is a stroke fundamentals issues … not a bridge issue. In my opinion, eliminating the grip or stroke flaws is a better approach than using a closed bridge as a “Band-Aid” to limit bad consequences of poor technique.

Regards,
Dave

An example of a guy who rarely if ever uses a closed bridge and plays at a high level is Appleton.

 

[dr_dave]

An example of a guy who rarely if ever uses a closed bridge and plays at a high level is Appleton.

I'm sure we could list many other current top pool players who use an open bridge on most shots. In the future, I suspect even more of the top pool players will use an open bridge on most shots.

Regards,
Dave

 

[HawaiianEye]

I think this a problem only for people who tighten their grip during the stroke into the ball. Here's a pertinent quote from my article:

Now for people who tend to lift the tip up during a stroke, especially with shots requiring more power, a closed bridge can help ensure a more-accurate tip contact point and help prevent possible miscues. However, tip lift is due to stroke flaws, usually grip tightening and/or elbow drop during the stroke into the ball. So tip lift is a stroke fundamentals issues … not a bridge issue. In my opinion, eliminating the grip or stroke flaws is a better approach than using a closed bridge as a “Band-Aid” to limit bad consequences of poor technique.

Regards,
Dave

Are you trying to tell us that Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, and other world champions of the past had "stroke flaws"?

I notice that your article has a lot of "I thinks" in it. What would make me "think" what you "think" would have precedence over what "Mosconi", or somebody of like stature, would "think"?

You even state, "many....instructors still think a closed bridge is better...", so what makes "your" "thinking" any better than their "thinking"?

A quote from your article:

"I think the reason is that an open bridge offers many advantages. Many players and instructors still think a closed bridge is better for draw and power shots, but I firmly believe an open bridge is better for most players and most shots, including draw and power shots."

Now into what "I" "think".

I "think" that more people are using the open bridge now because the playing conditions have changed. The tables are faster, the rules have changed, and there aren't as many "power-type" shots being played today as there were several decades ago.

The "best" bridge for "anybody" is what WORKS best for THEM. There doesn't have to be "flaws" in anything...they may have chosen it for comfort, confidence, stability, or what has "proven" to have worked best for them in the past.

 

[Island Drive]

An example of a guy who rarely if ever uses a closed bridge and plays at a high level is Appleton.

With non directional cloth waaaaaaaaaay befor Simonis it was a completely different game. If you got on the wrong side of the ball in a rotation play, often went the other way around. Nowadays, with the newer slippery...cloths your unable to go the other way, too much slipping and sliding going on when you amp up your swing speed to go 6 or 7 rails.

 

[Island Drive]

I think this a problem only for people who tighten their grip during the stroke into the ball. Here's a pertinent quote from my article:

Now for people who tend to lift the tip up during a stroke, especially with shots requiring more power, a closed bridge can help ensure a more-accurate tip contact point and help prevent possible miscues. However, tip lift is due to stroke flaws, usually grip tightening and/or elbow drop during the stroke into the ball. So tip lift is a stroke fundamentals issues … not a bridge issue. In my opinion, eliminating the grip or stroke flaws is a better approach than using a closed bridge as a “Band-Aid” to limit bad consequences of poor technique.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, your flat wrong on this.

Watch Busty, or any of the greats when they have to hit thru the shot and create 10-20' of cue ball travel on a draw shot, or a follow shot.

Hitting ''through the shot'' the elbow drops natually when your swing speed is near its maximum.

And if your going to hit a draw like Busty, or a great follow shot like Davenport, ''close it up''.

If the cue ball is frozen to the rail, and your cutting a ball in, with allot of cue ball speed, closing it up is a must. Your target area on the cue ball is at it's minimum, and this is thee most likely time to miscue, when your going up and down table for shape.

 

[dr_dave]

In the sixties with the rag cloth, the closed bridge was a must moving whitey multiple rails. Eliminated miscues.

I think this a problem only for people who tighten their grip during the stroke into the ball. Here's a pertinent quote from my article:

Now for people who tend to lift the tip up during a stroke, especially with shots requiring more power, a closed bridge can help ensure a more-accurate tip contact point and help prevent possible miscues. However, tip lift is due to stroke flaws, usually grip tightening and/or elbow drop during the stroke into the ball. So tip lift is a stroke fundamentals issues … not a bridge issue. In my opinion, eliminating the grip or stroke flaws is a better approach than using a closed bridge as a “Band-Aid” to limit bad consequences of poor technique.

Are you trying to tell us that Mosconi, Lassiter, Crane, and other world champions of the past had "stroke flaws"?

No.

I notice that your article has a lot of "I thinks" in it.
...
You even state, "many....instructors still think a closed bridge is better...", so what makes "your" "thinking" any better than their "thinking"?

I "think" my thinking is better and more thought-out than some people with strong and unquestioned opinions, but I'm not entirely sure about all of the statements in my article ... that's why the phrase "I think" was used in places, to make it clear that I am stating opinion rather than hard fact.

I "think" that more people are using the open bridge now because the playing conditions have changed. The tables are faster, the rules have changed, and there aren't as many "power-type" shots being played today as there were several decades ago.

I agree with your thinking. These things are definitely part of the story. However, many of the open-bridge advantages still apply irrespective of the changes in the game.

The "best" bridge for "anybody" is what WORKS best for THEM.

I agree 100%!

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dave, your flat wrong on this.

Watch Busty, or any of the greats when they have to hit thru the shot and create 10-20' of cue ball travel on a draw shot, or a follow shot.

Hitting ''through the shot'' the elbow drops natually when your swing speed is near its maximum.

And if your going to hit a draw like Busty, or a great follow shot like Davenport, ''close it up''.

If the cue ball is frozen to the rail, and your cutting a ball in, with allot of cue ball speed, closing it up is a must. Your target are on the cue ball is at it's minimum, and this is thee most likely time to miscue, when your going up and down table for shape.

Thank you for your opinions. I respect your input, especially since you are a solid player with way more playing experience than me (and most people).

I certainly agree that it is natural to drop the elbow on power shots, but if the elbow drops before the tip hits the CB, the tip will hit higher on the CB than what might be expected (regardless of the bridge type). This can result is less backspin with draw shots and miscues with follow shots. As pointed out on my elbow-drop resource page, there are many advantages to dropping the elbow for some people and with power shots.

Obviously, we disagree with the importance of a closed bridge, but that's why we are here ... to learn from each other and to possibly change our opinions as we learn more. I certainly try to learn things and change my opinions as a result of debates like this.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[Island Drive]

Thank you for your opinions. I respect your input, especially since you are a solid player with way more playing experience than me (and most people).

I certainly agree that it is natural to drop the elbow on power shots, but if the elbow drops before the tip hits the CB, the tip will hit higher on the CB than what might be expected (regardless of the bridge type). This can result is less backspin with draw shots and miscues with follow shots. As pointed out on my elbow-drop resource page, there are many advantages to dropping the elbow for some people and with power shots.

Obviously, we disagree with the importance of a closed bridge, but that's why we are here ... to learn from each other and to possibly change our opinions as we learn more. I certainly try to learn things and change my opinions as a result of debates like this.

Catch you later,
Dave

Well Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One things for sure, the land of hard knocks teaches you a plethora of things one will never see in a book. I happened to do a seminar in early 2000's with Allison Fischer at the trade show, before many room owners and BCA members. One thing I vividly remember was this. Allison and I were talking about teaching new players coming into your pool room. It was nice hearing her explain concepts for beginning players to learn, and I felt good, because I learned to think and teach beginners the Exact same way. I was actually surprised listening to her say my thoughts almost word for word, and we had never communicated before or since. She was taught by the best in Europe, the men.

 

[QuietStorm]

The "best" bridge for "anybody" is what WORKS best for THEM. There doesn't have to be "flaws" in anything...they may have chosen it for comfort, confidence, stability, or what has "proven" to have worked best for them in the past.

Well said! I've seen professionals who use either open or closed bridge on the same type of shot! Mika is one of them. It's truly what they feel comfortable doing on that shot, at that angle, with that calculated speed, etc.

I also agree that there are pros and cons to open vs closed bridge, as Dr Dave and others have pointed out. However, at the end of the day, it's truly a personal choice.

 

[QuietStorm]

Thank you for the debate!

Thank you Dr Dave and Island Drive for your valuable insight. This is the kind of exchange that helps novices like myself to think and understand the game on a deeper level.

 

[Island Drive]

Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post

The "best" bridge for "anybody" is what WORKS best for THEM.

Saying this ''blanket'' statement is incorrect


Your a player that uses a closed bridge most always.

BUT your playing under different conditions where.............
It's a damp, humid climate with dirty cloth and equipment.

You don't have a glove. Your skins moving as the shaft goes back/forth thru your fingers. Whadayado?

In this case;
Open bridge............almost all the time, unless you want to amp up your swing speed. If you do amp up your swing then use talc, go wash your hands and damp rag wipe down your shaft then address the shot.

Shooting off the rail, cb frozen to the rail, unless its a delicate bump and roll Always close it up.....and chalk up even more meticulously because of the smaller contact area on the cue ball.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post

The "best" bridge for "anybody" is what WORKS best for THEM.

Saying this ''blanket'' statement is incorrect


Your a player that uses a closed bridge most always.

BUT your playing under different conditions where.............
It's a damp, humid climate with dirty cloth and equipment.

You don't have a glove. Your skins moving as the shaft goes back/forth thru your fingers. Whadayado?

In this case;
Open bridge............almost all the time, unless you want to amp up your swing speed. If you do amp up your swing then use talc, go wash your hands and damp rag wipe down your shaft then address the shot.

Shooting off the rail, cb frozen to the rail, unless its a delicate bump and roll Always close it up.....and chalk up even more meticulously because of the smaller contact area on the cue ball.

I should have added "for the conditions at hand".

I have used every kind of bridge that I can think of at one time or another and it was always based upon the conditions and how I was playing.

That is why I said, "what works best". I meant it to be for "every" playing occasion.

I prefer using a closed bridge but have used an open bridge on many occasions, especially in hot humid conditions like in the Philippines or in bars, years ago, where air conditioning was sparse, or didn't work.

I was always a powder person and always carry some in my bag. Recently, I was given some "finger slides" by a friend and I used them until they wore out. I just bought a new glove and it works very well for closed bridges and open bridges.

I have watched tons of pool videos online and you will see LOTS of the open bridge players (Americans, Taiwanese, Chinese, Filipino, etc.) close their bridge up if they have to hit the ball hard and put some "Houdini" on it.

C.J. Wiley uses an open bridge most of the time, but he will use a closed bridge on his "power shots". I know, I played him for a couple hours recently.

Rodney Morris will do the same.

So will Allison Fisher and she was a snooker player before.

Like I said, "do what works" for YOU.

No matter what kind of bridge you use, if you feel "uncomfortable" with it, it will distract you and affect your playing.

 

[Island Drive]

I should have added "for the conditions at hand".

I have used every kind of bridge that I can think of at one time or another and it was always based upon the conditions and how I was playing.

That is why I said, "what works best". I meant it to be for "every" playing occasion.

I prefer using a closed bridge but have used an open bridge on many occasions, especially in hot humid conditions like in the Philippines or in bars, years ago, where air conditioning was sparse, or didn't work.

I was always a powder person and always carry some in my bag. Recently, I given some "finger slides" by a friend and I used them until they wore out. I just bought a new glove and it works very well for closed bridges and open bridges.

I have watched tons of pool videos online and you will see LOTS of the open bridge players (Americans, Taiwanese, Chinese, Filipino, etc.) close their bridge up if they have to hit the ball hard and put some "Houdini" on it.

C.J. Wiley uses an open bridge most of the time, but he will used a closed bridge on his "power shots". I know, I played him for a couple hours recently.

Rodney Morris will do the same.

So will Allison Fisher and she was a snooker player before.

Like I said, "do what works" for YOU.

No matter what kind of bridge you use, if you feel "uncomfortable" with it, it will distract you and affect your playing.

Good explanation. I just hate it when beginners are learning the game, and they think there is only ''one way'' like a click of the mouse. Not always are we comfortable on a particular shot, no matter what bridge we use.