CNC vs hand inlay question

[ace911]

Can someone clarify the differences?

I know CNC is the machine, and hand inlay maybe they use pantograph?


Even if a inlay is done CNC, it still had to be put in by hand right? Also it won't be as sharp as a hand inlay?


Hand inlays are more prone to show flows, because they aren't done by CNC?


Correct me if I'm wrong, I want to make sure I understand everything completely.

 

[rhncue]

Can someone clarify the differences?

I know CNC is the machine, and hand inlay maybe they use pantograph?


Even if a inlay is done CNC, it still had to be put in by hand right? Also it won't be as sharp as a hand inlay?


Hand inlays are more prone to show flows, because they aren't done by CNC?


Correct me if I'm wrong, I want to make sure I understand everything completely.

Partly right, partly wrong. Up until the late 60's or early 70's inlays were put in by hand using saws, chisels and exacto knives. In the early 70's some cue makers started using pantomills and the established cue makers cried "foul!". They claimed that the use of the pantomill made the newer cues "cookie cutter cues" and those who used this machinery were hacks. Of coarse the pantomills let inlays become fancier and put into something other than ebony. In the early 90's some cue makers bought CNC machinery and learned CNC code and pushed the inlay technology forward some more and of coarse the established cue makers who were now using pantomills once again called "foul! CNC just puts out cookie cutter cues".

"Even if a inlay is done CNC, it still had to be put in by hand right? Also it won't be as sharp as a hand inlay?"

It is put in by hand but, a hand cut inlay refers to one who's pocket and inlay are cut by hand not by a machine. Generally, CNC and pantograph have the same radiused corners as they both use the same tooling. They both can have as sharp of corners as any other inlay if the maker wants to spend the time squaring up the radiuses.

"Hand inlays are more prone to show flows, because they aren't done by CNC?"


Absolutely correct.

Dick

 

[nksmfamjp]

Can CNC inlays be as sharp as non CNC? I've heard no, but I would like to hear an expert speak. It seems like withe a 90 degree inlay base angle, it could be cut sharp and then cut deep at the handle and the v rising out of the forearm. I think even non cnc cut points like this. Can't most inlays be made similar?

 

[MVPCues]

CNC is not a machine, it is a protocol.

You can take a lathe and machine a part with it by turning the hand dials. If the operator does not make any mistakes by dialing in or out too far, if his machine is solid, the part comes out like he wants.

You can then take that lathe and set it up for CNC. Then you write the programs (great! a new skill required!) on the computer to do what you just did manually, load your piece, and if everything is written perfectly and set right, turn the program on, and the piece that is machined would be basically identical to the one just made. If you were making just one part, it would probably be faster to make just one manually (if not too complex) rather than do the programming and use CNC. If you had to make 1,000 parts, it would go much faster using CNC, and you have the power of repeatability of a computer. A person will eventually make some mistakes if he had to make 1,000 parts, at which point he keeps making some over and over again, or he lets a few minor flaws through.

You can apply the same thing to an inlay machine. An inlay machine might have 3 dials on it, one for depth, one for left/right, one for forward backward. You can use this inlay machine to cut a pocket out of a cue, or cut a part out of an inlay strip. After the pocket is cut, it might need to be cleaned up by hand, and modified to get super sharp corners. The radius of the cutter is paramount on how sharp corners will be. After the part is cut out, it might need to be cleaned up by hand, and modified to get super sharp corners. Then, hands glues the part into the pocket.

You can then take the inlay machine and set it up for CNC. The same machine with the same cutter can now be used to cut out the same pocket and the same parts under computer control. The same manual modifications would need to be done to the pockets and parts afterward, and the hand gluing done.

The CNC buys you repeatability with perfection, barring a machine failure. It does what you program it to do, right or wrong. Barring machines and cutters wearing out, it is tireless and basically a helper.

CNC also buys complexity. You can program complex movements that a person cannot perform manually, let alone repeat over and over again, to inlay complex shapes and curves. Templates can be used for the manually controlled machine, but then someone probably uses CNC to make the complex template....and you need a new template for every new complex design.

CNC is a protocol derived from computer code used to control a cutter in lieu of a machinist's hands used to control a cutter via handwheels (or the like). All other operations, such as deburring the part, cleaning up the pocket, gluing are still done by hand.

Kelly

 

[DrClaw]

I used to work for a water meter plant milling their plastic casings. I was given a 6 micron tolerance to work with so yes, a CNC programed mill can make just as sharp a point as a hand carved inlay. I'm sure I could write a G-Prompt CNC program that would turn out a very nice inlay. The cool thing is if you want to use more than one veneer per point, it would be a very simple process to alter the program for each piece. The problem is that CNC=mass production and the proper care isn't taken to do this. It's not that the mill can't, it's that the programmer didn't.

 

[HoskenCues]

I used to work for a water meter plant milling their plastic casings. I was given a 6 micron tolerance to work with so yes, a CNC programed mill can make just as sharp a point as a hand carved inlay. I'm sure I could write a G-Prompt CNC program that would turn out a very nice inlay. The cool thing is if you want to use more than one veneer per point, it would be a very simple process to alter the program for each piece. The problem is that CNC=mass production and the proper care isn't taken to do this. It's not that the mill can't, it's that the programmer didn't.

I agree with you on this but I'm wondering what cutter would give out sharp corner pockets for say a french diamond inlay? With the cutter radius I don't see it cutting sharp corners or I might be wrong.

As for v-points, no problem whatsoever.

Thanks

 

[ratcues]

I agree with you on this but I'm wondering what cutter would give out sharp corner pockets for say a french diamond inlay? With the cutter radius I don't see it cutting sharp corners or I might be wrong.

As for v-points, no problem whatsoever.

Thanks

You will always have a radius. The endmills are round. The size of the endmill will determine the size of the radius.

 

[DrClaw]

The thing is on a mill (at least the ones I used) you had to have two cuts per corner one cut would be long and the other cut would trim the first cut to give the desired sharpness. Here's a very bad drawing to explain what I mean:

For cutting the inside of the diamonds (if they're not solid), you'll need a more complicated machine and a very fine insert on your tools. The over cut method I described obviously won't work on an inside cut so you'll need very sharp tools and a very good program. You'll want to cut the inside first and you will need two very fine one sided cutting tools. I wouldn't recommend a two sided blade as I have never seen one that's as precise as the one sided variety. Small inside cuts like that are very hard to program and even harder to preform as you'll probably be changing your inserts very often if dealing with a very hard wood/material. I hope this explains what you wanted to know.

 

[pdcue]

I agree with you on this but I'm wondering what cutter would give out sharp corner pockets for say a french diamond inlay? With the cutter radius I don't see it cutting sharp corners or I might be wrong.

As for v-points, no problem whatsoever.

Thanks

Any cutter will leave a radius at a corner/point of a pocket.
In order to accomodate a 'sharp' inlay, you must somehow whittle
away the round part with a chisel/exacto knife/razor blade/flint flake etc.

Dale

 

[HoskenCues]

The thing is on a mill (at least the ones I used) you had to have two cuts per corner one cut would be long and the other cut would trim the first cut to give the desired sharpness. Here's a very bad drawing to explain what I mean:

For cutting the inside of the diamonds (if they're not solid), you'll need a more complicated machine and a very fine insert on your tools. The over cut method I described obviously won't work on an inside cut so you'll need very sharp tools and a very good program. You'll want to cut the inside first and you will need two very fine one sided cutting tools. I wouldn't recommend a two sided blade as I have never seen one that's as precise as the one sided variety. Small inside cuts like that are very hard to program and even harder to preform as you'll probably be changing your inserts very often if dealing with a very hard wood/material. I hope this explains what you wanted to know.

thanks for the explanation. Knifing it would still be easier:thumbup:

 

[Smithy]

OK, I'm new here and a dummy at cue making. However, I am a goldsmith and would like to make some gold and stone inlays for a pool cue. My inlays can be heavily engraved, set with stones, or high polished. If I furnish the inlay pieces, can the cue maker inlay them into a cue? Are there standard dimensional shapes that would work better for the inlay?

I'm probably the worst pool player on the site; however, I am retiringing (sort of) in January of next year and want to have a nice cue to play with (yea, I probably have a little bit of pimp in me).

Years ago in a galaxy far far away, I worked with a cue maker and got a cue with 14kt. gold bands in the butt and shaft, with diamonds at the 4 points. It's a great cue and hits fine for me, I just want to pimp out another cue...Smithy

Forgot to ask something, will a .stl file work on CNC programing? I have a cad/cam jewelry program that I can export to a STL and could make all sorts of "special" inlays

 

[DrClaw]

Any cutter will leave a radius at a corner/point of a pocket.
In order to accomodate a 'sharp' inlay, you must somehow whittle
away the round part with a chisel/exacto knife/razor blade/flint flake etc.

Dale

This is where the two one sided inserts come into play. If you use a typical diamond shaped insert, yes you will have problem. To cut a sharp pocket, you need two one sided old school shanks like these:
http://www.iscar.com/Ecat/familyHDR.asp/fnum/613/app/52/mapp/TG/GFSTYP/M/type/1/lang/EN

The one sided shanks will cut a very sharp angle. Each one will cut one side and it will be very crisp. There may be very minor deburring but that is to be expected with mills anyways.

 

[DrClaw]

thanks for the explanation. Knifing it would still be easier:thumbup:

Aw come on! Where's your sense of adventure? :joyful::joyful:

 

[DrClaw]

OK, I'm new here and a dummy at cue making. However, I am a goldsmith and would like to make some gold and stone inlays for a pool cue. My inlays can be heavily engraved, set with stones, or high polished. If I furnish the inlay pieces, can the cue maker inlay them into a cue? Are there standard dimensional shapes that would work better for the inlay?

I'm probably the worst pool player on the site; however, I am retiringing (sort of) in January of next year and want to have a nice cue to play with (yea, I probably have a little bit of pimp in me).

Years ago in a galaxy far far away, I worked with a cue maker and got a cue with 14kt. gold bands in the butt and shaft, with diamonds at the 4 points. It's a great cue and hits fine for me, I just want to pimp out another cue...Smithy

Forgot to ask something, will a .stl file work on CNC programing? I have a cad/cam jewelry program that I can export to a STL and could make all sorts of "special" inlays

I'm not a cue maker so I cannot comment on the sample shapes that are preferred.

I CAN however answer the other question. An .STL does work with some machines. I have also heard rumors of .STL to G-Prompt converters but I have never seen one.

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

The end mill will always cut a radius but the contour of your inlay can be a very sharp point geometry as the mill works on the space outside of the piece when cutting out the inlay from the stock mounted on the milling table. To get the pocket to accept the sharp point you must design and produce a pocket that is slightly larger than the inlay in the areas that are sharp contours.

When you glue in the inlay you must mix a pigment with the glue so that the pocket gap is filled in giving you the sharp point design in the finished state. Some people mix the saw dust from the milling of the pocket with epoxy to achieve this also.

Rick G

 

[Mr Hoppe]

This is where the two one sided inserts come into play. If you use a typical diamond shaped insert, yes you will have problem. To cut a sharp pocket, you need two one sided old school shanks like these:
http://www.iscar.com/Ecat/familyHDR.asp/fnum/613/app/52/mapp/TG/GFSTYP/M/type/1/lang/EN

The one sided shanks will cut a very sharp angle. Each one will cut one side and it will be very crisp. There may be very minor deburring but that is to be expected with mills anyways.

I'm confused. This looks like a parting tool designed for turning on a lathe. Milling sharp corners on a PART is not a problem. Milling sharp corners in the POCKET for the part to fit into is the challenge.

 

[RBC]

I think there is some confusion here.

The OP seems to be talking about inlays as opposed to points. Inlays, meaning part and pocket type inlays for aesthetics and design. Points, although they can be just a large part and pocket inlay, are a different type of inlay using a "V" groove cut into the forearm at an angle.

Now, for part and pocket inlays, the tools that DrClaw is reffering to don't really apply. Yes, they will cut sharp corners, but we are talking about the inside angles of a pocket. To create those pockets, we use a milling bit or router bit. Think of a drill bit that cuts on the sides, not just the point. These bits are round, of course and will cut a a pocket leaving a rounded corner. The radius of that rounded corner is basically the radius of the bit used to cut the pocket.

CNC or pantographed pockets in reality are the same. The only difference is how the tool is moved to achieve the desired pocket. A pantograph is a manual machine that typically follows a pattern which dictates the shape and size of the part or pocket. CNC, or Computer Numerically Controlled, machines use a computer to control the directions of the tool to achieve the desired shape and size of the part or pocket. CNC provides tremendous consistency, and the ability to do more intricate shapes and designs, but the inlay, once it is installed in the cue, is basically the same as with a pantograph.

Yes, a cue maker can use a knife or other tool to cut the pockets to a sharp corner with both pantograph and CNC inlays. Also, if the inlay goes into a dark wood like ebony, they can just cut the pocket a little large right at the tip and use black epoxy to fill in the gaps around a sharp cut part. This has been very common for years.


What it all boils down to is this. CNC or Pantograph are both tools for a cue maker to use. They both require knowledge, skill and craftsmanship to use in the proper construction of a quality cue. I believe that if Michael Angelo were alive today and building cues, he would use the best tools available to him to produce his art. That may be a CNC, or a Pantograph, but it would still be his art.

 

[vasilios]

you would think with all the equipment that is in my shop from the broom to the CNC the shop would clean itself.but the cnc has not learned to use the broom yet.cant tell if it is lazy or a bad attitude.

bill

 

[ace911]

Thank you Royce that cleared it up a lot.

 

[DrClaw]

I'm confused. This looks like a parting tool designed for turning on a lathe. Milling sharp corners on a PART is not a problem. Milling sharp corners in the POCKET for the part to fit into is the challenge.

Ohhhh... You're not the confused one, I am I didn't realize you were talking about the surface the part would fit into.

Sorry.