Coaches and Instructors.......

[The Renfro]

All of the back and forth between everyone on some of the topics on technique and fundamentals had me thinking of a line from Days of Thunder.....

"Run 50 laps any way you like, then 50 laps like I want you to.
Give me an honest run. If you do, I'll beat you."

Was just thinking what I wouldn't give to have my own Harry Hogge, Robert Duvall's character, around....

 

[Scott Lee]

The Renfro...:lol: I gotta agree with that!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[duckie]

I think of the last scene in the movie" the Last Dragon" where Bruce Lee Roy realizes he is the master.

 

[sjm]

Capain Queeg in the Caine Mutiny (Humphrey Bogart) was in a training session with his chief officers on his ship when he offered the following, reproduced as best as I can remember it.

Gentleman, there are four ways to do anything --- the right way, the wrong way, the navy way and my way. Do things my way and we'll all get along.

I think every great instructor needs to have a little bit of this philosophy in them to reach maximum effectiveness.

 

[JB Cases]

All of the back and forth between everyone on some of the topics on technique and fundamentals had me thinking of a line from Days of Thunder.....

"Run 50 laps any way you like, then 50 laps like I want you to.
Give me an honest run. If you do, I'll beat you."

Was just thinking what I wouldn't give to have my own Harry Hogge, Robert Duvall's character, around....

When the world's best women players show up to a world class even in China the Western players have no coaches, with the exception of Jasmin. All the Chinese players have world class players as their coaches.

They also practice relentlessly under the direction of their coaches.

So maybe the results speak for themselves that the of the top 16 in the World Championships two weeks ago 15 of the remaining players were Chinese.

This is possibly the only world class sport where most of the top competitors are pretty much on their own.

 

[The Renfro]

I think of the last scene in the movie" the Last Dragon" where Bruce Lee Roy realizes he is the master.

Got to get that soul glow!!!

Actually reminded me of the first time I met Efren... the first year DCC moved to the Horseshoe I was sitting in the commissary right outside of the tournament room... It was a smoking area and you could purchase beverages and cold cut sandwiches.... I had just watched Efren play almost a perfect match and had went out to smoke......

Efren and the rest of the Pinoy contingent set up shop at the table next to me and one of em asked me for a smoke... I obliged and took the opportunity to actually say something to Efren....

I said "looks like you have this game licked"...... And he looked at me and shook his head like he hadn't heard that specific term.... at which point I said "I think you have Mastered 9ball".... He rubbed his chin, cocked his head and then uttered 2 words.... "Not Yet"... and grinned......

What I wouldn't have given to be able to understand his native language... I sat with them quite awhile and they were having a blast.....

 

[FranCrimi]

When the world's best women players show up to a world class even in China the Western players have no coaches, with the exception of Jasmin. All the Chinese players have world class players as their coaches.

They also practice relentlessly under the direction of their coaches.

So maybe the results speak for themselves that the of the top 16 in the World Championships two weeks ago 15 of the remaining players were Chinese.

This is possibly the only world class sport where most of the top competitors are pretty much on their own.

...Which is why if anyone is going to get pool into the Olympics, it's China.

 

[JB Cases]

...Which is why if anyone is going to get pool into the Olympics, it's China.

I don't know about the Olympics. Seems that the Chinese are really into women's pool though. Kelly Fisher told me she ought to move here because she is playing professional events every couple months in China now.

Personally I believe with all my heart that IF some investors/backers would take some of the western pros and invest in getting them some full time quality coaching then those western pros could end up taking some of this Chinese prize money home. I am not entirely sure but I estimate that there will be about $200-300,000 dollars in prize money offered in Chinese women's events this coming year. It could be more as more and more companies in China decide to get involved.

Unlike the USA over here companies that are not IN the billiard industry see sponsoring billiard events as a viable platform for advertising.

When a player loses here then her coach gets on TV to explain why. Xiao Ting Pan has 280,000 followers on Weibo, China's version of Twitter.

There is NOTHING that separates the Chinese women players from the Americans and Europeans EXCEPT hard work and coaching. It's not exceptional talent. They simply take girls with interest and train them.

One thing about a lot of the women that are winning now in China....they have all been training for about ten years before reaching the level where they are winning consistently. This dovetails with recent books about talent being overrated that use studies that in all human activities it takes about ten years to really master a field.

 

[Robroy]

When the world's best women players show up to a world class even in China the Western players have no coaches, with the exception of Jasmin. All the Chinese players have world class players as their coaches.

They also practice relentlessly under the direction of their coaches.

So maybe the results speak for themselves that the of the top 16 in the World Championships two weeks ago 15 of the remaining players were Chinese.

This is possibly the only world class sport where most of the top competitors are pretty much on their own.

All I know, I won everything I did without a coach (natural talent)....now that I teach...I just can't imagine how strong of a player I would have become, if I would of had a world class coach in my corner. I know more today from teaching, then I ever did in the winner's circle.

 

[The Chinchilla]

All of the back and forth between everyone on some of the topics on technique and fundamentals had me thinking of a line from Days of Thunder.....

"Run 50 laps any way you like, then 50 laps like I want you to.
Give me an honest run. If you do, I'll beat you."

Was just thinking what I wouldn't give to have my own Harry Hogge, Robert Duvall's character, around....

You do, any good 2 dollar used book on pool on ebay.

 

[The Renfro]

You do, any good 2 dollar used book on pool on ebay.

While I do a agree that much can be learned from books and videos.. Instruction, Coaching and Mentoring would be the next logical steps. As JB has pointed out China gets it....

American players for the most part tend to think they can do it alone.... This cowboy attitude is starting to show as the rest of the world passes us on the whole.... Sure there will be the "talents" that will arise on their own... Van Boening is our prime example... The issue is they will be few and far between..... How good would Shane be if he had been developed and polished in Europe or Asia???

 

[JB Cases]

While I do a agree that much can be learned from books and videos.. Instruction, Coaching and Mentoring would be the next logical steps. As JB has pointed out China gets it....

American players for the most part tend to think they can do it alone.... This cowboy attitude is starting to show as the rest of the world passes us on the whole.... Sure there will be the "talents" that will arise on their own... Van Boening is our prime example... The issue is they will be few and far between..... How good would Shane be if he had been developed and polished in Europe or Asia???

Shane is not a good example of a player whose potential is not being realized because of no coach. He had coaches and mentors growing up. Shane's regimen is exactly what American players need. Not only did he have excellent teachers and players around him but he developed a work ethic to practice deeply the parts of his game that he needed to.

And truthfully most American players have some sort of coaching/mentoring as they are developing, it's almost impossible to develop into a good or great player without it. But for the most part it's not really structured and deep. It's more broad based and sporadic.

And it's ususally free. Those who develop talent in the pool world either do it for free because they want to pad their own ego and live vicariously through the success of their students OR they are backers who want to exploit the next good player to milk out all the victories they can before the player becomes unplayable without a large spot.

So at some point the player is set adrift on their own to make their way in the professional game without solid support in the way of a coach. It's at this point where they need a coach more than ever.

 

[kaznj]

Do you really think that a book and any price is anywhere as good as a good instructor?

 

[The Renfro]

Do you really think that a book and any price is anywhere as good as a good instructor?

I think some people cannot take instruction or criticism and even if it was a world class coach or player they would think they knew more... Usually you see it in younger players who think they already know it all or you see it in some of the older players who think they would have learned it all by now.... I always wonder if the former turns into the latter LOL. The only thing I am pretty sure of is both types will eventually find their way to AZB :shrug:.....

I had a huge ego when I was younger and you couldn't have tried to teach me a thing.... I would however read everything under the sun in private... It is very odd tho because I started this journey at the hands of an old instructor who had watched me shoot and thought I might be worth teaching... He passed a little while after he started showing me the right way to do thing and there was a void that I filled with my ego....

A few years older and wiser and I am open minded and smart enough to know no one knows everything, especially me.... Everyone has their owns tips and tricks and shortcuts.... Their own gospool...

I still have not gotten to take a formal lesson from an instructor but it is because of logistics and economics... There are none in the area and the expense of travel plus the lesson cost is prohibitive currently.... At some point I will seek out an instructor.. A coach or mentor in this area is completely out of the question.....

 

[PoolGrapevine]

Let me be frank with you...............

There is a well known site online where you can download/print nearly all of the kicking systems. Not all of them, but most of them. It is free. Print them out, and practice them.

For about $50, you can buy both of Freddy The Beard's banking books. You will learn very close to every bank. No, not all of them, but close.
Again, practice them at the table.

So....... For $50 you have now been taught to kick and bank like a pro. Imagine how much it would cost you from an instructor to learn all this information. What do they cost these days, $40 an hour?

Imagine how long it would take an instructor to teach you 40 kicking systems and the hundreds of bank shots.

You can get all that for about $50.

wow, can u please share what website that is and also where can i buy that book?
thanks!

 

[The Renfro]

Once again the mods did their job and Mr600 is in the graveyard... Kind of sad because I was going to comment on the last bit of idiocy he left here as well... And since we know he is still lurking....

I already know too many kicking systems and I have Banking with the Beard.....

SO I sat the book up on the rail and proceeded to shoot a few racks... AT NO TIME did the book suggest an alternative to my shot selection or offer any words of wisdom or criticism.... It effectively made a lousy coach and horrible mentor... While the book is full of great info some of which I had never seen in print before in this respect it was as ignorant as let's say.... Mr600....

 

[JB Cases]

I don't mean to spoil your party, but if you're looking for that sort of advice, it's all free. There are thousands of accu-stats tapes with the greatest players giving their advice on how to play position, what shots to take, etc.

Grady, Billy, Danny, Buddy etc. have commentated on probably millions of different shots, and they have given their advice on how to deal with each shot. You could literally spend the rest of your life watching the tapes and you probably wouldn't get through them all. And it's all free. Well, the tapes aren't free, but the advice is.

And if you really want to go cheap, there are hundreds of videos online with expert commentary, key word expert.

There is no reason to pay someone to sit over your shoulder and select the next shot for you. If you can't put some effort into your own game and learn the shots, I don't know what to say.

When is the last time you saw a world class athlete get to world class without a coach?

 

[sjm]

I don't mean to spoil your party, but if you're looking for that sort of advice, it's all free. There are thousands of accu-stats tapes with the greatest players giving their advice on how to play position, what shots to take, etc.

Grady, Billy, Danny, Buddy etc. have commentated on probably millions of different shots, and they have given their advice on how to deal with each shot. You could literally spend the rest of your life watching the tapes and you probably wouldn't get through them all. And it's all free. Well, the tapes aren't free, but the advice is.

And if you really want to go cheap, there are hundreds of videos online with expert commentary, key word expert.

There is no reason to pay someone to sit over your shoulder and select the next shot for you. If you can't put some effort into your own game and learn the shots, I don't know what to say.

I agree with the spirit of this post but not with its logic.

What I like about this post is that is stresses an important truth about learning the game. Studying how the pros play is one of the most critical aspects of learning the game and, as you've done well to point out, Accustats makes it possible to do this and learn volumes from doing so. Hence, I agree with you that to lack a great thirst for studying the great matches of the past is to overlook a great learning resource.

Where I disagree is that the commentary, which I find to be very cursory, represents anything even approaching a full analysis of the play. A full review of the play froom the standpoint of instruction must reference choices made and choices foregone, and what makes one better than the other. It must also reference stroke selections and strokes executed. It must explain the cause of errors, and there are dozens of possible causes of an error. Needless to say, commentators don't have time for detailed analysis of the play, so nobody can fault them for their superficial review of the play.

A good instructor, however, can offer a much more detailed analysis and can even spend a few minutes discussing a key shot, position, or tactic with a student when it's deemed appropriate.

As you say, a true student of the game absolutely must study the great matches, but I'd argue they must also have an instructor who can evaluate and discuss all aspects of their shot selection, shot design, and shot execution on a shot by shot basis.

 

[The Renfro]

I don't mean to spoil your party, but if you're looking for that sort of advice, it's all free. There are thousands of accu-stats tapes with the greatest players giving their advice on how to play position, what shots to take, etc.

Grady, Billy, Danny, Buddy etc. have commentated on probably millions of different shots, and they have given their advice on how to deal with each shot. You could literally spend the rest of your life watching the tapes and you probably wouldn't get through them all. And it's all free. Well, the tapes aren't free, but the advice is.

And if you really want to go cheap, there are hundreds of videos online with expert commentary, key word expert.

There is no reason to pay someone to sit over your shoulder and select the next shot for you. If you can't put some effort into your own game and learn the shots, I don't know what to say.

You really have no clue about any of this... Books and videos are all it takes to reach world class... Not in a lifetime of watching and reading will you reach that brass ring....

I have spent 20+ years learning the shots. I know most all of them... I own many I should not and do not own many that I should....

The owning is where you need the coach or the instructor.... Someone outside of your own box... Someone who has an objective opinion and is able to asses your strengths and weaknesses without the blindspots that we all have...

I have a shot that I own that I learned wasn't the right shot.... I can thin cut balls full table off the rail with better accuracy than most anyone I have seen... I used to shoot the shot quite often.. I would make it 6 out of 10 but felt that it needed to be shot... 6 of 10 was about 20% better than anyone I have known could pull off...

I had a friend ask me once why I kept shooting at those when I couldn't make them ALL of the time? I said because it's a shot I am better at than most people... He then asked if there were any other shots I shot where I knew I was going to miss 40% of the time?? At that point I had to reassess my own beliefs against reality and admit that I would only shoot other 60% shots when they were 2way shots.... That was the night I started to own a new shot... to thin the balls off the end rail and come 2 or 3 rails out to hide behind blockers.... The exact shot I know and have known all along from watching the pros duck where I fired.....

The hardest part for most players including myself is honest self assessment.... A lemming is optimistic and likely self deluded right up until they hit the edge of the cliff....

I'd like to have someone in my corner saying hey little fella... slow down... The fall may not kill you but that sudden stop sure will.....

 

[jay helfert]

wow, can u please share what website that is and also where can i buy that book?
thanks!

Unfortunately you can't buy a stroke for $50 or even $5,000! You can have all the knowledge in the world, but if you haven't learned how to execute then you don't have squat! Steve Mizerak said it best, "Practice, Practice, Practice!"