Code Of Conduct

[Tom In Cincy]

Scott, I see your point, very clearly.

The COC in this thread is more of the 'cart before the horse' thinking IMO.

Let the tournaments get stronger with more added money and a greater percentage of payout (more than 33% and hopefully a minimum of 50% of the field) before a COC dictates what players can an can't do...

Let the prize be worthy of the Code rather the Code be worthy of the prize.


Tom.... always wondering Why?

Tom...Only if they want steady work. If they want don't want to be in the group that chooses to 'follow the rules', then they can hang out in the poolroom (waiting for that big "action" to come walking through the door), while others who will conform to a COC get the steady work. Seems pretty simple to me! I'm starting a booking agency for pro poolplayers, and I can tell you one thing for certain...they WILL conform to a COC that will be in my contract, or they won't work for me! I won't put my reputation on the line for someone that I have to "keep tabs on", and can't rely on to act and dress professionally, when they are in the public arena.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Snapshot9]

Opinion

I believe 'hotline' is considered 1 word.

While this could be a very good thing, until it is adopted by the top associations of billiards, you are p***** against the wind.

The pros are not bad, it is all the amateurs I would like to apply this to.
A little 'over the top' in a couple of areas.

 

[dabarbr]

Professional pool players should be encouraged to oblige the fans that seek their autographs. I know that pool has a very narrow scope of fans but I would hate to see it go like some other sports where they feel that they need to charge for autographs. One of the best ways to promote pool is to keep the fans wanting more.

 

[frankncali]

Scott, I see your point, very clearly.

The COC in this thread is more of the 'cart before the horse' thinking IMO.

Let the tournaments get stronger with more added money and a greater percentage of payout (more than 33% and hopefully a minimum of 50% of the field) before a COC dictates what players can an can't do...

Let the prize be worthy of the Code rather the Code be worthy of the prize.


Tom.... always wondering Why?

Tom

I think the opposite. WE, as the pool community, are building the sport. To do so certain requirements need to be made. If guys talented enough to play Pro Level pool would like to do so for a living they need to realize that they have a chance to help their own cause.

I actually am for the pool players rallying together but not in the same way that most others think. The players should get together and figure out ways to advance their own cause.

I don't think the players have any right NOW to make any demands. The events will only get bigger and better if THEY help build it.
Golf is a perfect example. Golfers back early on really gave alot to the sport. They helped build it.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Currently the only requirement for a PRO to play in a tournament is to 'pony up the entry fee'

There are already specific rules that cover 'sportsmanship' conduct.

Promorters can require all kinds of specific rules. (i.e Dress codes)

This is already in place. Why re-create?

Now if the PRO men want to get together and agree to a COC, GREAT... I am all for that... but let's at least have a PRO Tour for them to 'act' like PROS.

Let a tournament be fully funded and payout 100% of the 'qualified' field and I assure you that those that want to be 'qualified' will follow any rules the tour promoters want to be followed.

Tom

I think the opposite. WE, as the pool community, are building the sport. To do so certain requirements need to be made. If guys talented enough to play Pro Level pool would like to do so for a living they need to realize that they have a chance to help their own cause.

I actually am for the pool players rallying together but not in the same way that most others think. The players should get together and figure out ways to advance their own cause.

I don't think the players have any right NOW to make any demands. The events will only get bigger and better if THEY help build it.
Golf is a perfect example. Golfers back early on really gave alot to the sport. They helped build it.

 

[ShootingArts]

carts and horses

I think that we are talking about things all wrong when we start with the analogy of a horse and cart. The truth is that we need to be a team putting out equal effort, players, room owners, promoters. When we all sit around waiting for someone else to make the first move we all lose.

Players want to be treated like professionals, they should look and act like professionals.

Promoters want the players to look and act like professionals, they need to behave like serious and ethical promoters.

Room owners need to deliver on their promises too and make every effort to provide the best possible place and conditions to play in.

Pool has a long hard path to success at best. Only with everyone involved focusing on the long term goals as well as short term interests do we have any hope at all. Any time we are fussing about that other horse or horse's rear not pulling his share of the load we need to look in the mirror too. Are we really doing our best to pull our share?

Hu

 

[JoeyA]

Scott, I see your point, very clearly.

The COC in this thread is more of the 'cart before the horse' thinking IMO.

Let the tournaments get stronger with more added money and a greater percentage of payout (more than 33% and hopefully a minimum of 50% of the field) before a COC dictates what players can an can't do...

Let the prize be worthy of the Code rather the Code be worthy of the prize.


Tom.... always wondering Why?

Tom, respectfully, I think, you may have missed the point.

Your analogy is akin to that of a student going to the teacher at the end of the semester, having done very poorly in school, asks the teacher to give him a passing grade and if the teacher does, the student promises that he will study real hard the following semester. :frown:

This Code of Conduct are a set of guidelines that will help every pool player, not just the professional pool players.

Some players may be practicing this however many may never have been told that this is how they should act and dress in order to be respected by others.

I think you have to act like a professional to be treated like one.

You don't get anywhere in life, waiting for someone else to make your life better. Improving your life starts with your own personal initiative, guided by a set of practical principles and the dedication to live by them when no one is looking.
JoeyA

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Joey... I don't think I have missed any point you or your 'proposed' COC has made.

IMO you need to re-read your COC and ask yourself, if only the Un-mannered need to read and follow this COC, who are your writing this for?

Please step back and look at this 'proposed' COC and ask yourself. "If I were a current Pro Player, what would I think of Joey's 'proposed' COC?

How many of the current Top 50 pros would be banned because they didn't follow the COC? 5?, 10? NONE?

Who would enforce this? The promoters? The Players? YOU?

Tom, respectfully, I think, you may have missed the point.

Your analogy is akin to that of a student going to the teacher at the end of the semester, having done very poorly in school, asks the teacher to give him a passing grade and if the teacher does, the student promises that he will study real hard the following semester. :frown:

Do you really think your analogy is correct... YOU consider yourself the TEACHER?

This Code of Conduct are a set of guidelines that will help every pool player, not just the professional pool players. HELP? Now this COC is the cure all for all pool players... really Joey.. grow up.

Some players may be practicing this however many may never have been told that this is how they should act and dress in order to be respected by others.

I think you have to act like a professional to be treated like one. it helps, but you have to have talent first and then a professional arena. None yet that I know of. and if there is they will come up with their own COC just like the IPT did and like the UPA did. do you see a pattern here?

You don't get anywhere in life, waiting for someone else to make your life better. Improving your life starts with your own personal initiative, guided by a set of practical principles and the dedication to live by them when no one is looking.
JoeyA

Lots of jounior high teachings here Joey. But you might be on to something, common sense is something that you have to learn (not to be forced on you) on your own. Maybe you just need to open a Manners school and let it be free to all the players that want to learn.

 

[frankwhite]

I think if we would like our professional pool players to hold themselves to higher standards, we should at least ask ourselves to do the same. Many of the guidelines would work well for the amateur players as well.

In the past, I have been guilty of making fun of a professional pool player's appearance and have even made negative remarks about their lifestyle etc.

I am trying to change my behavior and what I say on this forum, especially about the professional players whom we are asking to change their behavior for the betterment of our sport.

It is my hope that those of you who post in this thread and on AZ in general, will make efforts to edit your posts when you see yourself ridiculing a professional player or otherwise making fun of them. This doesn't mean we have to walk on eggshells but I hope we will all make efforts to help each other change for the betterment of our sport. I'm sure JS can take all of the teasing about his glove and pink shirts that we can dish out. That type of teasing is meant in a fun way. Getting personal about someone's appearance on a public forum is poor sport.

Thanks for your contributions.

JoeyA

Joey I'm a no-body but been around and played pool for a long time. I have many personnel friends that play professionally. I agree w/ you all the way. BTW Johnny Schmitt always dresess to the nine, even w/ that pink shirt. In return i have seen(no names) play w/ no shaves, oilaly hair, ripped jeans and shirts ect. When i play I always put the "church cloths" on. I just feel better, and play better mentally. Ofcourse this is all just my opinion. I think if all of this changes, well, I dont think it will hurt our wonderful sport of billiards.

Frankie.........

 

[lodini]

Joey... I don't think I have missed any point you or your 'proposed' COC has made.

IMO you need to re-read your COC and ask yourself, if only the Un-mannered need to read and follow this COC, who are your writing this for?

Please step back and look at this 'proposed' COC and ask yourself. "If I were a current Pro Player, what would I think of Joey's 'proposed' COC?

How many of the current Top 50 pros would be banned because they didn't follow the COC? 5?, 10? NONE?

Who would enforce this? The promoters? The Players? YOU?

I don't believe that Joey is saying he is the "teacher" in that analogy at all... And this Code of Conduct is not about who enforces it... it's about who adheres to it. It's a way for potential fans/sponsors/promoters to focus on the sport itself and release the negative image associated with it. I don't for a second believe that Joey was labeling himself the almighty end-all for discussions on this matter... he was merely trying to give pool players with "pro" aspirations a way of life that is respectable to the outside world. I see nothing wrong with that at all. And I certainly hope that players will see the good in what he and Doug wrote... cause I believe it's all pretty important stuff. "Dress the part you want to play", as my mom always says.

(Correct me if I am wrong, Joey... that was just my interpretation of what your intention was)

 

[JAM]

The tournaments I have attended that had a dress code, the players always seem to show up in their collared shirts, leather shoes, and slacks.

I don't think the dress code is a problem at all. In fact, the tournaments that have a dress code in place, the players seem to adhere to the dress code.

In my experience of attending pool tournaments, it seems like the dress code in the South is a little more lax than up North. For instance, in the South, some events allow the players to wear sneakers, jeans, shorts, tank tops, et cetera. Whereas, up North, some events require players to wear leather shoes and slacks and collared shirts. Also, just an observation, the players from New York City always seem to be dressed like they just walked out of a GQ magazine, even when they're dressed down.

I know at an IPT event in Vegas, the players who were disqualified for not coming to their matches in a collared shirt soon took the IPT rules seriously, and at those events, I didn't notice any untoward behavior from any of the competitors as it pertains to a code of conduct. Several players were disqualified from their matches because they did not adhere to the existing rules of all cues MUST have a leather tip. There were no warnings given in Vegas. If they had a cue with no leather tip, they were disqualified on the spot.

I am not saying that poor behavior does not happen, but I think there's a lot more important things to worry about as far as pool's success than the dress code and other player-associated happenings. In fact, in my heart of hearts, I do not think a code of conduct or lack thereof is keeping pool in the duldrums.

I can assure you if every single pool player dressed in tuxedos and behaved like monks, pool would still be in the same trouble that it is in today. I wish it were different, but in my opinon, there are other things that are troubling pool as a sport, at least in the United States, that are preventing pool from excelling. I just do not think it is the lack of a code of conduct or dress code.

Pool seems to be thriving in Philippines okay, and I don't see a dress code there. As far as a code of conduct, all Filipinos I have ever met are very, very, very nice. Not a mean bone in their collective Filipino bodies. :thumbup:

JAM

 

[JAM]

My suggestion to help pro pool in America would be to have more American pool events in mainstream media.

Jay Helfert just relayed a cool pool happening about a BET event at Hollywood Billiards that took place yesterday, with lots of stars and sports celebrities.

I did not see one mention of this in the American media, not even on the BET website, much less the pool media.

Pool needs an agent to get the sport out there in the public's view. Right now, it seems that when pool is on TV, the event is well AFTER the fact or a replay. And then there's the low payouts. Somehow I don't think America can take pool seriously when they see an event on TV and first place pays $8,000, as an example, as the top prize.

The players can only do so much, but to place the burden of pool's failure on their shoulders seems not quite right. There are other factors that are keeping pool from rising in popularity, aside from the players.

JAM

 

[justnum]

I am a fan of billiards as well. I am new to the sport and its players.

This industry has wonderful basics.

Basics like patience, staying in control, the inner competition and international exchanges.

From the articles and stories I get the impression that the media is limited to understanding the hustle and the prize money.

The hustle and the prize money does generate an interest into the sport but I doubt that is what it is about.

I do know this industry leads in diversity more than any other industry.

A better comparison of the billiard industry is the chess industry because both are underdogs. Both display high levels of diversity and encourage international cooperation. The difference between the two is the billiard industry does not create enough events for the under 21 crowd. The chess industry does have under 18 events.

 

[JoeyA]

I don't believe that Joey is saying he is the "teacher" in that analogy at all... And this Code of Conduct is not about who enforces it... it's about who adheres to it. It's a way for potential fans/sponsors/promoters to focus on the sport itself and release the negative image associated with it. I don't for a second believe that Joey was labeling himself the almighty end-all for discussions on this matter... he was merely trying to give pool players with "pro" aspirations a way of life that is respectable to the outside world. I see nothing wrong with that at all. And I certainly hope that players will see the good in what he and Doug wrote... cause I believe it's all pretty important stuff. "Dress the part you want to play", as my mom always says.

(Correct me if I am wrong, Joey... that was just my interpretation of what your intention was)

No need to correct you Lodini.

You are spot on in everything you have said.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

My suggestion to help pro pool in America would be to have more American pool events in mainstream media.

Jay Helfert just relayed a cool pool happening about a BET event at Hollywood Billiards that took place yesterday, with lots of stars and sports celebrities.

I did not see one mention of this in the American media, not even on the BET website, much less the pool media.

Pool needs an agent to get the sport out there in the public's view. Right now, it seems that when pool is on TV, the event is well AFTER the fact or a replay. And then there's the low payouts. Somehow I don't think America can take pool seriously when they see an event on TV and first place pays $8,000, as an example, as the top prize.

The players can only do so much, but to place the burden of pool's failure on their shoulders seems not quite right. There are other factors that are keeping pool from rising in popularity, aside from the players.

JAM

JAM,
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying in the last paragraph.

Do you somehow conclude that The Code of Conduct insinuates that pool's failure is on the pool player's shoulders?

The Code of Conduct is nothing more than a set of guidelines that pool players can choose to adhere to enhance their personal and professional lives. Pool needs a lot more than a Code of Conduct to turn itself around but at least it's a start.

This "start" is miniscule in solving the financial problems of the pool world. However, no one has to take money out of their pocket to do it and everyone can take advantage of the benefits that can be derived from following them. COC is about improving lives and perspectives, not laying blame.

JoeyA

 

[JAM]

JAM,
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying in the last paragraph.

Do you somehow conclude that The Code of Conduct insinuates that pool's failure is on the pool player's shoulders?

The Code of Conduct is nothing more than a set of guidelines that pool players can choose to adhere to enhance their personal and professional lives. Pool needs a lot more than a Code of Conduct to turn itself around but at least it's a start.

This "start" is miniscule in solving the financial problems of the pool world. However, no one has to take money out of their pocket to do it and everyone can take advantage of the benefits that can be derived from following them. COC is about improving lives and perspectives, not laying blame.

JoeyA

When I read your initial post on this thread, you made mention of Jerry Forsyth's kind request for suggestions to help pro pool. I think that is what I was addressing, more so than a code of conduct.

I agree with you that a code of conduct is a start, and I find the variety of responses to this thread quite interesting. I am glad you initiated the thread.

As far as a code of conduct goes, Joey, some tours do have codes of conduct and dress codes in place. As one example, the Joss Tour does have both of those, and the TD applies the rules evenly across the board with no favoritism.

Even though the codes of conduct and dress codes are in place in some facets of pool across the land, pool still suffers in popularity, which ultimately leads to no outside sponsor monies and no publicity on mainstream TV.

If I knew the answer, Joey, I'd sure share it with everyone, but I don't have the answer as to why pool suffers in the States. A code of conduct and a dress code is certainly a good step in the right direction for sure, but even when the players are dressed to the nines and on their best behavior, pool still seems to suffer. I hope I conveyed my thoughts more clearly.

I agree with you about the code of conduct and dress code. I just don't think these factors alone are going to be the magic bullet, for lack of a better word, to help pool rise. :smile:

JAM

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,

I like the idea of the Code of Conduct, however, I have several suggestions. First descriptive paragraph, I think two sentences breaks up the statement. I revised as so: If something requires strict enforcement it can cause friction between the transgressor and the enforcer that could create an undesirable situation for both parties. You can choose if you want to change or not.

Change: IMAGE: This includes detailed requirements and suggestions on projecting a positive image both on and off the table.


Fans section - Although I think this is a great suggestion, I do not think this area is appropriate for suggesting a Pro Player to set up clinics to help the younger. This is a code of conduct paper.

Amateur Competitors: When a Pro event is occurring, the Pro Player is concentrating on getting into his/her game. Suggesting that he/she interrupts their train of thought to practice or give suggestions to a lessor player at this time in not practical. These suggestions need to be addressed, but, not here.

Dining: I do not know about this one. Dining with someone you are not thoroughly acquainted with can be awkward at times. Maybe reword this or eliminate this suggestion.

Wagering: You should add the hot line number 800-522-3784

Dress Code: Change in wording - No excuse will be accepted. If you are in violation of the dress code, you will forfeit your match. In some cases you may be required to leave the tournament room. No matches will be delayed for any player who is informed that they are in violation of the dress code.

There has been a huge discussion on AZ Forums about Pro Players signing items for FREE when others have been trying to sell memorabilia at the tournaments. May need to reword this to eliminate confusion.

All of the above is JMO and should not be construed that the original is in anyway not acceptable.

You bring up some great points klocdoc. Thanks for your input. I have updated the file and will continue to do so in the future.
JoeyA

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Exactly my point... do you really think Pro Pool players don't have a Mom to tell them to "Dress the part you want to play"?

There are already rules in place for tournaments by promoters about 'dress code' and unsportsmenlike conduct.

And I certainly hope that players will see the good in what he and Doug wrote... cause I believe it's all pretty important stuff. "Dress the part you want to play", as my mom always says.

 

[ShootingArts]

a reminder can be helpful

Exactly my point... do you really think Pro Pool players don't have a Mom to tell them to "Dress the part you want to play"?

There are already rules in place for tournaments by promoters about 'dress code' and unsportsmenlike conduct.

Tom,

A guideline does serve as a helpful reminder and many people simply don't think about what they are doing and the appearance they put forward. When I was chasing sponsors I considered myself on display anytime I wasn't in my home without company. Few pool players amateur or professional take that approach. However we never know what will cost us or the sport.

Years later the shoe was on the other foot and I was looking for someone to sponsor. One of my customers seemed to have all of the qualities I was looking for. However he behaved in a less than professional manner a couple of times in public after I had decided to sponsor him but before I had time to sit down and talk to him. Behaving like a spoiled brat those two times cost him one of the better sponsorship deals around at the time. What he did wasn't major however I was seeking the best possible representative for my business.

We, all pool players as a whole, need to remember that we represent our sport and act accordingly all of the time not just when we are at a tournament with a dress code or code of conduct. The guideline is only a helpful reminder. I don't agree with all of the wording but the wording is still being tweaked. Just having something out there is a start.

Hu

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Hu,
Good Point, the wording is, IMO, very condescending. Maybe that is why I dislike this concept altogether.

The guideline is only a helpful reminder. I don't agree with all of the wording but the wording is still being tweaked. Just having something out there is a start.

Hu