?!? COLLAR on SHAFT ?!?

[mair23]

Hey guys,

i hope you will be able to help me because i saw something today and was like .......

A friend of mine was a little bit in range and his shaft kissed the table a little hard :grin-square:
At that moment the shaft broke at the collar, but the collar was still on the joint.

I looked at it and found out that it is not a real collar, it´s more like a black plastic or phenolic piece.
That whole thing has the thread for the joint in it and is glued in the shaft wood.
So it looks more like the shaft is the collar around that plastic piece.

I am owning app. 80 shafts at the moment and i checked them all.
I have no one like that

Please help and explain me if that´s a normal way to do a collar / shaft

 

[juspooln]

Nub's Wagner did that is it piloted 5/16-14-18 without a insert and who determines normal it is my understanding good brass inserts were hard to come by but with out a picture I'm just guessing

 

[mair23]

Nub's Wagner did that is it piloted 5/16-14-18 without a insert and who determines normal

It´s one of the new 314 second generation shafts !!
But i own already some by myself and they are made different
Erich

 

[KJ Cues]

Any chance you could please post a pic? I'm having a hard time getting a visual.
Thanx

Addendum :
OK, no pic needed, I've got the visual.
You ask is this design normal? Well, if this is the only one of 80 shafts that is built this way, then I wouldn't consider it normal for all shafts.
But this is normal for Predator shafts.
These shafts will not stand side-loading or bending as some are prone to do on the break. No shaft is actually designed to withstand those forces.
Shafts are designed to receive and impart impact, to and from, straight ahead.

Issues such as this would come under the heading of warranty and your friend should address Predator regarding this.

 

[Varney Cues]

From the best I understand your description...its perfectly normal. What you are seeing is the insert in the shaft. When he broke the shaft, the insert & joint collar stayed on the pin. Predator uses a black phenolic type material as an insert in their shafts...its that material that they bore & tap the threads into as they feel its more durable than wood. When he broke the shaft, the insert & wood simply parted ways. Its a perfectly normal way of building a shaft...it must of been quite a "kiss" as you call it to explode as it did. No fault of Predator. Its no different than say a customer sends me a shaft that fits a Radial pin & has me change it to fit a 3/8-10. I'd bore out the old hole/threads to accept a plug of phenolic/wood/material of choice...then bore & tap the plug. If the shaft is abused to the point it explodes in that area then it would be no surprise to find the insert still on the pin. I have seen this happen before...but it is without doubt caused by abuse.

 

[mair23]

From the best I understand your description...its perfectly normal. What you are seeing is the insert in the shaft. When he broke the shaft, the insert & joint collar stayed on the pin. Predator uses a black phenolic type material as an insert in their shafts...its that material that they bore & tap the threads into as they feel its more durable than wood. When he broke the shaft, the insert & wood simply parted ways. Its a perfectly normal way of building a shaft...it must of been quite a "kiss" as you call it to explode as it did. No fault of Predator. Its no different than say a customer sends me a shaft that fits a Radial pin & has me change it to fit a 3/8-10. I'd bore out the old hole/threads to accept a plug of phenolic/wood/material of choice...then bore & tap the plug. If the shaft is abused to the point it explodes in that area then it would be no surprise to find the insert still on the pin. I have seen this happen before...but it is without doubt caused by abuse.

First of all thanks for all the answers, and i will try to post some pics that you can see it better.
I am only a player and little collector, so i realy have no clue how to built a shaft correctly.
I ever thought the the thread will be put in the shaft wood directly, and then there will be a collar around the wood.
It looks like that on most of my cues - for sure on all wooden theads !!

But is it realy better to bore the thread in a piece of plastic or phenolic and then glue that in the shaft
You know, there is not much left around that plastic thing from the real shaft wood.
It realy looks a little bit delicate or unsafe in my eyes

Erich

 

[mair23]

Pics

I shot some pics and hopefuly they can help to imagine what i mean.
I made pics with six different shafts.

3 normal shafts (TAD, Josswest and Gina). The Josswest has no insert (wood thread).
But the TAD and the Gina have inserst and both look to me as they are in the shaft wood and a collar is around that.

And 3 Predator shafts !!
But two were only blanks, where Mike Gulyassy and Paul Drexler made the collars.
Both time the collar is around the shaft wood and the thread went in the shaft wood.
The last one is the destroyed one !!! Not realy a hard hit as you can see, because you still can put it together.
Seems like the glue between the black plastic didn´t hold together with the little bit of wood around it, or

Would be great if i would get some explanations, because i realy think that´s a bad way to do that !
Looks realy shaky and filligree

Erich

 

[HeLLFiSH]

Yup, thats predators design. Check out a broken BK2:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=157053

 

[ShootingArts]

I have seen this multiple times

This image is pretty common to all of the predator joint adapter failures I have seen. You have a partial wood failure but in all cases I have seen there is a partial adhesive failure also. My belief if that the adhesive fails first, may even be poorly bonded at the factory, then when the cue happens to be turned to allow maximum strain on the wood holding the adapter in, the wood fails.

A full circle bonded connection is very strong. When enough of the circle is not bonded to allow flex in the connection it is far far weaker. I think that is what we see with these failures. Factory defect in my opinion. Either the adhesive isn't adequate for the job with the materials used or it isn't being applied properly.

Hu

I shot some pics and hopefuly they can help to imagine what i mean.
I made pics with six different shafts.

3 normal shafts (TAD, Josswest and Gina). The Josswest has no insert (wood thread).
But the TAD and the Gina have inserst and both look to me as they are in the shaft wood and a collar is around that.

And 3 Predator shafts !!
But two were only blanks, where Mike Gulyassy and Paul Drexler made the collars.
Both time the collar is around the shaft wood and the thread went in the shaft wood.
The last one is the destroyed one !!! Not realy a hard hit as you can see, because you still can put it together.
Seems like the glue between the black plastic didn´t hold together with the little bit of wood around it, or

Would be great if i would get some explanations, because i realy think that´s a bad way to do that !
Looks realy shaky and filligree

Erich

 

[KJ Cues]

Again, these shafts are not designed to withstand abuse and this shaft was clearly abused. Whether whacking the table or leaning on the shaft during the break; it's abuse. No shaft is meant to withstand abuse.

I'm very sorry for your friend but he either needs to change his habits or his equipment.
The design of the shaft changed from Gen1 to Gen2 and in all honesty, I'm not a fan of the new construction. BUT....if your Predator shaft is used as intended, it should last a lifetime.

 

[mair23]

This image is pretty common to all of the predator joint adapter failures I have seen. You have a partial wood failure but in all cases I have seen there is a partial adhesive failure also. My belief if that the adhesive fails first, may even be poorly bonded at the factory, then when the cue happens to be turned to allow maximum strain on the wood holding the adapter in, the wood fails.

A full circle bonded connection is very strong. When enough of the circle is not bonded to allow flex in the connection it is far far weaker. I think that is what we see with these failures. Factory defect in my opinion. Either the adhesive isn't adequate for the job with the materials used or it isn't being applied properly.

Hu

WOW, i need some time to get all what you said - you know i am no american and english is not my language.
But i think i got all
So you realy think, there is only a problem with the "GLUE" they use or how they put in ON
For me that small wood piece whice is left around the black insert looks reayl thin and weak.
That brought the question up in my mind if that is a proper whay to make a shaft or a good way to do it !?

Erich

 

[mair23]

Again, these shafts are not designed to withstand abuse and this shaft was clearly abused. Whether whacking the table or leaning on the shaft during the break; it's abuse. No shaft is meant to withstand abuse.

I'm very sorry for your friend but he either needs to change his habits or his equipment.
The design of the shaft changed from Gen1 to Gen2 and in all honesty, I'm not a fan of the new construction. BUT....if your Predator shaft is used as intended, it should last a lifetime.

Nice way to say that he is a stupid guy, but to be honest - i saw that little kiss on the table,
and it was never that hard that this should happen with a shaft or collar or however that´s named on these sort of shafts.
But it´s nice to hear that there are more people out there who think PREDATOR is going in the wrong direction.
I think as long as they produced more in the US the material was way better, or am i wrong

Erich

 

[Varney Cues]

Erich you can avoid the design that you don't like by buying 314 partials next time & having them matched to your cue by your favorite cuemaker of choice. He can then install the brass insert directly into the wood.

 

[mair23]

Erich you can avoid the design that you don't like by buying 314 partials next time & having them matched to your cue by your favorite cuemaker of choice. He can then install the brass insert directly into the wood.

Thanks for your help - i already know that because i have some of these like you can see in the pics.
And as i said before, that´s not my destroyed 314 :grin-square:
Only wanted to know if that´s realy good how they work, because i don´t think so.

Erich

 

[ShootingArts]

think cane or bamboo

WOW, i need some time to get all what you said - you know i am no american and english is not my language.
But i think i got all
So you realy think, there is only a problem with the "GLUE" they use or how they put in ON
For me that small wood piece whice is left around the black insert looks reayl thin and weak.
That brought the question up in my mind if that is a proper whay to make a shaft or a good way to do it !?

Erich

Try to bend and break a piece of cane or bamboo the same diameter as the wood on the Predator joint. You will find that as long as a section is intact between two joints with no damage to the joints or the bamboo between them it is difficult or impossible to break unless you break it across something like a sharp corner. The same is true of the thin wood around the Predator adapter. It is very strong as long as it is fully and equally supported all the way around the circumference of the connection. However if any part of the connection fails then unequal pressure is applied to the rest and it fails easily.

In every case I have seen of a Predator adapter failing part of the failure has been between the adhesive and the phenolic or whatever they are using. This bond should be far stronger than the wood itself which leads me to suspect that this bond fails before the wood does or we would be seeing total wood failure with no failure of this bond.

Hu

 

[Varney Cues]

The problem is that they leave the plug sticking out of the shaft and then install the joint collar directly on the plug. It'd be much stronger if they installed the joint collar on the wood like normal & then installed the plug into the wood, leaving some wood between the collar & plug. Just my opinion...but thats how I do it.

 

[mair23]

The problem is that they leave the plug sticking out of the shaft and then install the joint collar directly on the plug. It'd be much stronger if they installed the joint collar on the wood like normal & then installed the plug into the wood, leaving some wood between the collar & plug. Just my opinion...but thats how I do it.

Sorry, Mr.Varney but i think i didn´t catch that
The collar is the black phenolic which is around the shaft on all the other cues - correct !?
So which thing you mean with collar on the 314 shaft
The only collar there is the small piece of shaftwood around the plastic plug in,
and the "thread hole" is only in this black plastic and nether contacts the shaft wood directly.
So i realy didn´t catch your explanation, sorry !!

Erich

 

[WilleeCue]

You seem to want someone here to tell you that is not a normal construction method and is bad.
Does it really matter if it is good or bad?
That is the way they are and that is the way they will be if you choose to buy one.

You always have a choice.
OB1 - OB2 shafts are constructed differently and are stronger because of that difference.

 

[masonh]

You always have a choice.
OB1 - OB2 shafts are constructed differently and are stronger because of that difference.

that is what i was going to say.i have seen Predators fail like this one before and i have seen them fail in other areas.the warranty is good,but really who wants to have to send a shaft back b/c it breaks and get a new one that might do the same.

i think the OB's have a better feel or hit and they are higher in quality and performance is nearly identical for both.

 

[mair23]

Thanks to all of you out there for your great explanations.
To Willieecue : For me it was improtant to know if thats a "normal" possibility of doing shafts.
All i thought as my friend gave me the shaft was - fuc..- do i have the same shi.. :grin:

And know i learned that this is a possibility, not a good one but a possibility and it should work with normal use.
That´s the reason i love AZ, because i learn that much every time i ask :thumbup:
Thanks again to all of you and my friend will try to get a new one over the warranty,
but you know, we are not in the US and the waiting time will be realy long for him, i think.

Erich