Comments and Questions on the Harriman 280

mullyman

mullyman

Hung Like a Gnat!
Silver Member
Ok, I've watched the DVD 3 times in the past 24 hours and I have a few things I'd like to say and a have a few questions.

Comments:

I really liked the information on using english when pocketing a ball and using that english to move another object ball in the direction you'd prefer it it go i.e. up table or down table. I think a lot of us just learning the game bump balls like that without utilizing the spin to effect the direction. Very interesting.

I notice that you use english on quite a few shots. Again, this goes back to a discussion we had a week or so ago about better players moving away from just using center ball. I've always been told that in straight pool that english should be used as little as possible. It's nice to see you using spin on a lot of the shots because I do that too but it makes me feel that I shouldn't because of everything I've always heard.

It's necessary to be able to come with the tough shot when it shows up. There were quite a few pinches you got yourself into that you got yourself out of because of your shot making ability. Kudos on that. My runs would have ended on a few of those....especially that side pocket shot right around rack 15 or so where you had to use spin to throw the ball into the side pocket. Good shot.

Questions:

You say in your commentary that inside english on the break helps with opening the balls. Could you explain that in a little more detail? How does inside spin on the cue ball effect an entire rack of balls? Very curious about this one. I'm not fond of using inside on my breaks but will practice it more from now.

What cue are you using? Cue weight? Tip diameter? Brand of tip?

Why do you use a 60in cue when shooting straight pool? Is there some advantage other than being able to reach shots that are further away or is it just your thing?

I noticed when you draw off the rack you go all the way up table and come one rail back down. Is that better than bringing the tip up a little and just drawing to mid table? Easier to control?

I think that's it for now. More to come I'm sure.
MULLY
 
mullyman said:
Ok, I've watched the DVD 3 times in the past 24 hours and I have a few things I'd like to say and a have a few questions.
Comments:

I really liked the information on using english when pocketing a ball and using that english to move another object ball in the direction you'd prefer it it go i.e. up table or down table. I think a lot of us just learning the game bump balls like that without utilizing the spin to effect the direction. Very interesting.

You say in your commentary that inside english on the break helps with opening the balls. Could you explain that in a little more detail? How does inside spin on the cue ball effect an entire rack of balls? Very curious about this one. I'm not fond of using inside on my breaks but will practice it more from now.

MULLY
Click to expand...

I've only watched it once but these two things caught my eye as well. The first point about moving the bumped ball faster or slower (or right or left) using right or left English is something I think I read about maybe in an old Johnny Holiday book. I asked about it on the forum a few years ago but got no answer. Blackjack, why don't you chime in? Is this something that can impart a significant effect upon the bumped ball? I even think I remember Danny saying he was going to put high on his cue to effect how a nine ball was bumped. Would that put low on the bumped ball and slow its effect? If these are tools that can help us get control of the table we better start developing them.

The other thing about inside English to keep the broken up rack going in a certain direction or breaking up better is something I don't understand either. Anyone have any experience with that.

I noticed Thursday that Bobby Hunter had a lot of spin on a lot of his shots. When the shot was over the dimpled cue ball continued to spin around. If I get a chance I'll ask him.
 
Another thing I was wondering about was the speed of the table he was playing on. He said quite a few times how the cushions were really springy. He also said quite a few times that it was old cloth and a humid basement, I think he saide about 50% humidity if I'm not mistaken. In my experience old cloth is slow and humidity makes it even worse. I think the run is even more incredible if you factor in a slow table with fast cushions. The balance must be unreal.

That got me to wondering if that was another reason why he brought the cue ball all the way up table and back down to mid table on some of those breaks. I would guess if the cloth is old and wet that you probably have to hit your break shots a little firmer.

It just about makes my head spin that he ran 280 and then my head wants to explode thinking about the conditions.
MULLY
 
It looked to me like the balls were opening up beautifully. It shows me that clean, polished balls make all the difference.
 
bluepepper said:
It looked to me like the balls were opening up beautifully. It shows me that clean, polished balls make all the difference.
Click to expand...


A good stroke doesn't hurt much either. hahaha!!
MULLY
 
I was bumping a few balls with English on the cue ball but did not notice any spin being imparted. At the speed we bump these balls, they are only going a few revolutions and it is hard to see an effect.

Anyone else try??
 
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dmgwalsh said:
I was bumping a few balls with English on the cue ball but did not notice any spin being imparted. At the speed we bump these balls, they are only going a few revolutions and it is hard to see an effect.

Anyone else try??
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Yeah, I was actually screwing around with it tonight. I tried to set the balls up the same way each time but since I wasn't really getting geeked out on the shots I was fine with just being about the same. From what I could see the balls did in fact move up and down table but I couldn't help but attribute some of it to the different thickness of the hit on the first object ball since I was spinning it in. Now, the spin may have had something to do with it. I don't know about most people but I when I use english I use a lot. You'll hardly ever see me using half a tip or a quarter tip. Go on out to the outside is my motto. hehe!! So yeah, using maximum spin like I do it may in fact have helped with the direction of the second ball, but again, the thickness of the shot was a bit different too. Interesting just the same though and I am going to work this into my game.
MULLY
one more thing to make me miss balls:frown:
 
dmgwalsh said:
I've only watched it once but these two things caught my eye as well. The first point about moving the bumped ball faster or slower (or right or left) using right or left English is something I think I read about maybe in an old Johnny Holiday book. I asked about it on the forum a few years ago but got no answer. Blackjack, why don't you chime in? Is this something that can impart a significant effect upon the bumped ball? I even think I remember Danny saying he was going to put high on his cue to effect how a nine ball was bumped. Would that put low on the bumped ball and slow its effect? If these are tools that can help us get control of the table we better start developing them.

The other thing about inside English to keep the broken up rack going in a certain direction or breaking up better is something I don't understand either. Anyone have any experience with that.

I noticed Thursday that Bobby Hunter had a lot of spin on a lot of his shots. When the shot was over the dimpled cue ball continued to spin around. If I get a chance I'll ask him.
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dmg,
Received your PM.

Both George Breedlove and Jeanette Lee use
it for specific situations when bumping balls. I'll try to diagram some potential uses of this for you this weekend (will have some time as I'm working the long weekend) - it comes up VERY frequently in straight pool.

I am somewhat doubtful that spin has much effect on the spread of the pack (to me, physics suggests otherwise; but what the hell do I know); but it has huge effect on where whitey ends up after it strikes the pack (perhaps on some shots, the spin of whitey encourages it to take a better path through the pack - I haven't seen the vid yet). Unfortunately, the determination of which spin to use sometimes depends on whether whitey will strike the bottom, center, or top of one of the pack balls; and the Wei table can't really show these fine differences. If you ever make it to Indy (or I to Chicago) I can show you what I was shown - it's pretty cool.
 
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I am not avoiding this thread...

Just so everybody knows, I have not received Danny's video yet. He was going to send one to me - but I'm sure he had to fill other orders before sending one to me.

Also, It should be known that I have started on some new medication for my Parkinson's Disease called Artane (Trihexyphenidyl). I have been dealing withthe side effects, which includes loss of memory and concentration, confusion, agitation, amongst other mood altering effects. For this reason, I have had to shy away from any posts such as this - because basically my conversation skills - my analyzation skills - as well as my writing and communication skills - are not very good right now - and it is very embarrassing and limiting my participation.

I am in the process of trying to find a way off this medication because I am not myself at all - I kind of feel like Forrest Gump - lol. If it takes a while for me to respond to posts or PM's - please keep this in mind. Hopefully I will get back to responding and teaching about the game in the very near future.
 
Just wanted to make a suggestion to the physists out there who say that spin does not have an effect on the rack. Physics also will say that you cannot cut a ball in backwards that sits frozen on the rail, however the physics teacher does not take into the consideration that there might be a great deal of spin on the white. I am sorry if my theory on whether or not left or right hand english changes the direction which breaks the rack up makes a few heads spin. Ralph Greenleaf said that inside english breaks the rack up better and I heard this from many reliable sources and found it to be true. This I have learned does change the way the rack breaks apart just as top and bottom will also, I think you could ask any top player MrWilliebetmar and they would probably agree but what do I know:). Please if anyone would like a quick response to a question or comment about my instructional DVD feel free to include in your post that you have actually purchased the DVD. This will help you get an answer much quicker.
Happy trails, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
 
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Blackjack said:
Just so everybody knows, I have not received Danny's video yet. He was going to send one to me - but I'm sure he had to fill other orders before sending one to me.

Also, It should be known that I have started on some new medication for my Parkinson's Disease called Artane (Trihexyphenidyl). I have been dealing withthe side effects, which includes loss of memory and concentration, confusion, agitation, amongst other mood altering effects. For this reason, I have had to shy away from any posts such as this - because basically my conversation skills - my analyzation skills - as well as my writing and communication skills - are not very good right now - and it is very embarrassing and limiting my participation.

I am in the process of trying to find a way off this medication because I am not myself at all - I kind of feel like Forrest Gump - lol. If it takes a while for me to respond to posts or PM's - please keep this in mind. Hopefully I will get back to responding and teaching about the game in the very near future.
Click to expand...

I can empathize. It's no fun.
 
Danny Harriman said:
Just wanted to make a suggestion to the physists out there who say that spin does not have an effect on the rack. Physics also will say that you cannot cut a ball in backwards that sits frozen on the rail, however the physics teacher does not take into the consideration that there might be a great deal of spin on the white. I am sorry if my theory on whether or not left or right hand english changes the direction which breaks the rack up makes a few heads spin. Ralph Greenleaf said that inside english breaks the rack up better and I heard this from many reliable sources and found it to be true. This I have learned does change the way the rack breaks apart just as top and bottom will also, I think you could ask any top player MrWilliebetmar and they would probably agree but what do I know:). Please if anyone would like a quick response to a question or comment about my instructional DVD feel free to include in your post that you have actually purchased the DVD. This will help you get an answer much quicker.
Happy trails, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
Click to expand...
Hi Danny,

Good for you, I'm glad that you tossed out a response, but I think that if someone wants advise, they should have bought it. The other thing is, I think as pool players (and in my case I use that quite loosely), we owe it to our sport to support our pro players. That is one of the reasons I buy stuff like your DVD (yep I bought it Pete from MA). It's not much, but it's the little I can do to support the pro game of pool (if I were rich, I would sponser some pros, but I am middle class and work 9 to 5). Can't wait to see anything else you come out with.

Pete
 
Danny Harriman said:
Just wanted to make a suggestion to the physists out there who say that spin does not have an effect on the rack. Physics also will say that you cannot cut a ball in backwards
Click to expand...

DH,
No dispute here, no criticism intended, and no physicist either (though surely no physicist will dispute the back cut on a frozen ball; deflection, curve, spin off the rail explain it quite easily).

I'm just trying to understand "why" inside English should have an effect on a large pack. The spin transferred to the first object ball is small; and any further object balls in the chain should have little if any transferred spin.

My thoughts of the possibilities were:

#1 - the path of whitey off the pack might be influenced to maximize spread of the balls.

#2 - the inside English allows for a slightly thinner hit on the object ball; resulting in relatively more speed of the cue ball into the pack (when compared to a thicker hit on the object ball with the same stroke force).

#3 - more confidence in the shooter allowing a more forceful stroke. Many shooters (unlikely to include Danny:) ) habitually undercut cut shots; the inside English might increase their pocketing percentage on forceful break shots, thus increasing their confidence and increasing the power with which they stroke (resulting in a better spread).

That's all I could come up with. To test the principle scientifically would be VERY difficult. For us mortals, anything other than a center ball hit does tend to lower our pocketing percentage. It would be nice to know whether lower ability players should consider this strategy. I would NEVER want to disagree with the pro's; my whole philosophy of pool is predicated on learning more quickly by accepting the advice and guidance of the experts ( but it is still fun to try and understand the mechanics).
 
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Consider the diagram below. Picture an overhead camera able to take a picture of the rack after each hit on the 1 ball, and then overlay the pictures one over the other. I do not believe there would be identical ball lies after a hit on the one ball from the two angles shown, if theoretically we could duplicate exact speed of hit each time.

What I'm trying to illustrate here (however poor the attempt is) is that the 2 ball is being hit in the exact same spot each time. This is the reason the 1 ball is there, for display purposes. In an actual shot it would not be there, rather the cue ball would be hitting the 2 ball directly at that precise spot

The cue ball going into the one ball easily with only a soft roll from the left is in effect simulating the "nudge" a cue ball going into the 2 at that same spot with spinning left english would transfer to the 2.

Conversely, the cue ball going into the 1 ball from the right can represent the "nudge" the 2 ball would realize with a direct hit from the cue ball using right hand english.

Both times the 2 is hit in the identical spot, but, if we were able to duplicate the rack, the speed of the hit and the conditions, I would venture to say that even with a very easy stroke, that full mass of balls would not look identical after each hit. So, IMO we have to deduce that cue ball english can to some degree effect the way balls open, even in a full rack.

CueTable Help

 
My thoughts of the possibilities were:

#1 - the path of whitey off the pack might be influenced to maximize spread of the balls.

#2 - the inside English allows for a slightly thinner hit on the object ball; resulting in relatively more speed of the cue ball into the pack (when compared to a thicker hit on the object ball with the same stroke force).



WB, spin does not influence the path of the white as much as which side of a ball or ball's that the cue ball glances off from the stack, determining which side of a particular ball the cue ball will contact in the rack is not easy. I have learned it becomes even more difficult when there is a substantial amount of space between the break ball and the rack. However as you may know the more distance between the object ball and the rack the less likely we are to scratch, this of course only follows when we have plenty of angle on the breakshot.

Yes the inside spin will free the white as you can aim thinner but only in certain shots does this theory hold true. Let's say for instance we decide to apply top inside spin on our breakshot - if the breakshot has plenty of angle we then don't need as much speed on the hit, this creates less deflection however if we decide to use low inside and our breakshot has less angle we would as a result need a firmer hit on the white. Every cue under the new cloth and polished balls conditions produces some deflection with low side spin whether it be low outside or " " inside. The only exception to this rule is if the white and object ball are in close quraters, (which would make the spin more fresh if you will.)

Also what part of the rack the white strikes whether it be the top half or botton also makes a difference on the path of the white.
It's ok to ask questions and or make comments I will try and answer, I am a student of the game and am glad to share what knowledge I have.
 
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My thoughts of the possibilities were:

#1 - the path of whitey off the pack might be influenced to maximize spread of the balls.

#2 - the inside English allows for a slightly thinner hit on the object ball; resulting in relatively more speed of the cue ball into the pack (when compared to a thicker hit on the object ball with the same stroke force).



WB, side spin on the white does not influence the path as much as top and bottom. Which side of a ball or ball's that the cue ball glances off from the stack is huge also. To me this is more difficult to determine when there is a substantial distance between the object ball and the rack. However if there is distance as mentioned and plenty of angle on the break shot your generally safe in assuming you won't scratch if you use top english and a smooth stroke.

Yes the inside spin will free the white as you can aim thinner but only in certain shots does this theory hold true. Let's say for instance we decide to apply top inside spin on our breakshot,if the breakshot has plenty of angle we then don't need as much speed on the hit. This creates less deflection, if we decide to use low inside and our breakshot has less angle we would as a result make a firmer hit on the white. Every cue under the new cloth and polished balls conditions produces some deflection with low side spin whether it be low outside or low inside when dabbed with authority.

There are two exceptions to this rule, the first would be if the cue ball and object ball are in close quarters, now then there is little distance for bounce and deflection to take place which gives the white less drag time - this gives the white more revolutions per second. The second is if you have a long shot on an old cloth and a wet table. Even though the white does deflect a little in the beginning it will arc or masse back past the original line drive path. ie if your cutting a object ball to the right with outside spin (low left) the masse effect will cause you to over cut the shot.

Also what part of the rack the white strikes whether it be the top half or botton also makes a difference on the path of the white.
It's ok to ask questions and or make comments I will try and answer, I am a student of the game and am glad to share what knowledge I have.

Happy trails, Danny Harriman (The Springfield Rifle)
 
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Thanks for sharing Danny. I never realized this, but it seems to make sense now that Danny brings it up, does bottom side english deflect more than top side english? Since you're sort of lifting the cue ball with bottom, I figure this may be true.
 
bluepepper said:
Thanks for sharing Danny. I never realized this, but it seems to make sense now that Danny brings it up, does bottom side english deflect more than top side english? Since you're sort of lifting the cue ball with bottom, I figure this may be true.
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Seems to me that with high english the cue ball swerves more, and cancels out the squirt more, as in a masse shot, whereas the low english slides the cue ball more, and it doesn't curve as much going over the cloth. Not sure, just a guesstimate.

Flex
 
Flex said:
.
Seems to me that with high english the cue ball swerves more, and cancels out the squirt more, as in a masse shot, whereas the low english slides the cue ball more, and it doesn't curve as much going over the cloth. Not sure, just a guesstimate.

Flex
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Flex,

I think the distance between the CB and OB will determine how much throw the OB will have.

For shots with a small distance between the CB and OB, high ball tends to throw the OB more because it will skid first, then go into it's natural roll.
 
Yeah, hitting it high increases your chances of a skid too. As for the high vs low, I feel the cue ball swerves more using low. I could be wrong, but it's my feeling. I've been working on that low outside opening break shot and it's not happening for me. I'm still hitting the end ball to thick. The CB isn't getting to where I want it to go either. I've really been considering going back to my high outside break that I'm used to.........but I have to get this down so I won't.
MULLY
 
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