Conceding a game.

Shark88

Registered
So I was in a doubles tournament where if you scratch on the 8 and miss its not a loss unless you pocket the 8. It was also stated cue ball fouls only. I ran down to the 8 and over cut it and scratched, in the heat of the moment I hit one of the opponents balls with my cue, I realized I was wrong in doing so and stopped it, put it back in place and apologized. They had ball in hand with an open table. I was told I conceded the game. I tried looking it up later and couldn't find such a rule. The only thing I found is if you move the money ball with your stick, break down your stick, etc. Also the opponents took ball and hand and took 2 shots before asking the tournament director. He called it a loss at that point. Any thoughts on this, or any written rule on this that anyone knows of? I learned a valuable lesson either way, and we did end up winning the set, our last shooter broke & ran to end it so we still won the match.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
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... or any written rule on this that anyone knows of? ...
Was this under any particular organization? The larger leagues have written rule sets.

By the written rules, you are never permitted to just grab up an object ball. If you foul an object ball in many leagues, it is up to the opponent to either leave the object ball where you moved it to or put it back. By grabbing up the ball, you removed your opponent's right to choose. That is unsportsmanlike conduct.

Here are the CSI/BCAPL rules, which are used by a lot of leagues: https://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html

Here are the World Standardized Rules from the organization (WPA/WCBS) that's recognized by the IOC:
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"In the heat of the moment" you hit one of your opponents ball. Did you do this on purpose due to frustration? If you did you conceded the game.

I go with this, normally, if you hit it like you were going to mess up the existing layout and concede the game as a loss, that would be counted as a loss. Basically if you act as if you are conceding, the ref or opponent can take it as such.

HOWEVER, in your case the opponent started to play the game as if the were going to finish it, now this can change things.

Also the opponents took ball and hand and took 2 shots before asking the tournament director. He called it a loss at that point.

There are rules that prevent basically storing up a foul to be used later in the game in many rules, so you can't see someone foul, wait till they shot 4 more shots then call a foul to have an easier layout. You snooze you loose as the saying goes. By starting to play the game your opponent also made a motion as to continue the game and forgive the action. This can be seen in 8 ball rules where if the opponent starts to shoot the wrong side, you can't wait several shots later to point that out, soon as they shoot the second shot, the sides swap.

So due to the second part, if I was a ref, I would take that under consideration, but really I don't know what I would have called in this case, both ways are logical and fair in their way.
 
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hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bad sportsmanship. Should have been escorted off premises.

That would be a no LOL, conceding a game by hitting a ball is not a bad thing, everyone does it. When I want to concede the rack, I do it by tapping or striking the cueball or the game ball with my cue or send it towards the rack area. Which is what was done here.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I go with this, normally, if you hit it like you were going to mess up the existing layout and concede the game as a loss, that would be counted as a loss. Basically if you act as if you are conceding, the ref or opponent can take it as such.

HOWEVER, in your case the opponent started to play the game as if the were going to finish it, now this can change things.



There are rules that prevent basically storing up a foul to be used later in the game in many rules, so you can't see someone foul, wait till they shot 4 more shots then call a foul to have an easier layout. You snooze you loose as the saying goes. By starting to play the game your opponent also made a motion as to continue the game and forgive the action. This can be seen in 8 ball rules where if the opponent starts to shoot the wrong side, you can't wait several shots later to point that out, soon as they shoot the second shot, the sides swap.

So due to the second part, if I was a ref, I would take that under consideration, but really I don't know what I would have called in this case, both ways are logical and fair in their way.

Agreed. I know some 8B leagues have rules where if you shoot your opponents ball in and realize it and then shoot one of yours in - there is no foul.

If they started shooting like nothing happened then it was on them for not calling the foul when it occurred.
 

DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
That would be a no LOL, conceding a game by hitting a ball is not a bad thing, everyone does it. When I want to concede the rack, I do it by tapping or striking the cueball or the game ball with my cue or send it towards the rack area. Which is what was done here.

Depends on how it was done. His sounded like a tantrum. Yours sounds like a controlled and deliberate act.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Depends on how it was done. His sounded like a tantrum. Yours sounds like a controlled and deliberate act.

Tantrum or not, I've seen some pretty high profile players have tantrums and when it's over - rack 'em and let's play some pool.

Escorted off premises is a bit over the top for this one.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Was this under any particular organization? The larger leagues have written rule sets.

By the written rules, you are never permitted to just grab up an object ball. If you foul an object ball in many leagues, it is up to the opponent to either leave the object ball where you moved it to or put it back. By grabbing up the ball, you removed your opponent's right to choose. That is unsportsmanlike conduct.

Here are the CSI/BCAPL rules, which are used by a lot of leagues: https://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html

Here are the World Standardized Rules from the organization (WPA/WCBS) that's recognized by the IOC:


So Bob, you may have missed the part where he stated the opponent started to play the game and actually took a few shots before getting the ref/director. "Also the opponents took ball and hand and took 2 shots before asking the tournament director. He called it a loss at that point. "

I think this fact changes the rule about conceding the game, although I don't know what would be the right "official pro" call here. If it was me, I probably would have told the other player that he needed to call the foul before starting the game again on his turn and finish it up as it was. I would think if this came up in a major refereed event like a US Open, there may be some consulting with the refs about the right call unless there is a precedent for this action.

The thing that may affect it is the difference between a conceding of the game action and a normal foul that is played through then called later. The game concession may over-ride any action taken after that no matter the situation since it's not just a plain "oops I moved your ball", so the game ended at the hitting of the ball and anything past that is moot even if the other player started to play.

For example, what if the player made a 9 on the break, but both payers took several shots before noticing, what happens then? Technically the game was won already but play continued by both players. Is the 9 spotted and the players continue the game? This happened before to me a few times, and we really did not have any solution, I know we both played the game over and spotted the 9 and played through.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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So Bob, you may have missed the part where he stated the opponent started to play the game and actually took a few shots before getting the ref/director. "Also the opponents took ball and hand and took 2 shots before asking the tournament director. He called it a loss at that point. "

I think this fact changes the rule about conceding the game, although I don't know what would be the right "official pro" call here. ...
That's a good point. The standard rule is that a foul must be called before the next shot is taken. It's clear that neither player is familiar with the less common rules. Also, neither one of them thought to ask the TD what to do when the problem came up. I'd be tempted to use your solution and replay the game if I were the TD. I'd also be tempted to explain the applicable rules.
 

Shark88

Registered
If I did that I would concede in shame, no need for a rule book.
Not putting you down, been there as well.
The worse part was doing it in a team event. They didn't ask for a ruling until the guy got out of shape and decided to ask then. I just know not to do it again. I've been playing for 40+ years and never came across this situation in any of my matches. 1st time for everything.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The worse part was doing it in a team event. They didn't ask for a ruling until the guy got out of shape and decided to ask then. I just know not to do it again. I've been playing for 40+ years and never came across this situation in any of my matches. 1st time for everything.
Can't say I have either. Sounds so uncomfortable.
 

DeeDeeCues

Well-known member
The worse part was doing it in a team event. They didn't ask for a ruling until the guy got out of shape and decided to ask then. I just know not to do it again. I've been playing for 40+ years and never came across this situation in any of my matches. 1st time for everything.

In this case, the game goes on. You were inn the wrong, but your opponent lost his right to complain.

The TD handled this incorrectly.
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
The worse part was doing it in a team event. They didn't ask for a ruling until the guy got out of shape and decided to ask then. I just know not to do it again. I've been playing for 40+ years and never came across this situation in any of my matches. 1st time for everything.
Thats what I thought happened when you said he took two more shots first.

I think that was a bad call by the TD. The guy was fine with it, then once he realized he might not run out cuz he played poor shape, he figured it was time to use the foul to win the rack.

I’m imagining it wasn’t a “tantrum” swipe at his ball, more of a “shit I scratched on the 8 and now the racks done so I’ll swipe the balls down” but then you remembered the rule.

Even if it was an “F it” type swipe I still say that the foul was null and void once he took BIH.
 

Shannon.spronk

Anybody read this?
Silver Member
I think that since the other player had already taken two shots I would give him two options.

1. Continue the game at the table that he has played a couple of shots on since the incident.
2. Replay the entire game.

IMO he lost his right to it being a loss of game when he continued to play.
 

DryFlyTrout

Well-known member
The first thing that stands out to me is he played 2 shots before consulting the TD. At that point it's too late. Should have figured it out when it happened, not in the middle of his turn. Cue ball fouls only means hitting the ball isn't a foul, unless the rules clearly state doing so intentionally is considered poor sportsmanship.
You were clearly wrong. It happens to all of us. Learn from it and progress. Without having the rules to read, it impossible to say what the outcome should have been. This exact situation may be rare enough rules weren't explicit. I feel like from the limited information available, the TD made the wrong decision.
 
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