I am looking for opinions on the conical joint.
Do you have a preference?
Which joint do you feel is the best?
All opinions welcome.
Do you have a preference?
Which joint do you feel is the best?
All opinions welcome.
Conical joint
- Thread starter bobroberts
- Start date
bobroberts said:
I am sure Thierry layani of www.layanicues.com will be the best guy to talk to about the conical joint.
For myself, I have played with a few Layani cues. I think the design is very unique and I really like it.
The first thing I find about the joint is that there is almost no gap between the male and female. When you look at a conventional joint, there are a lot of space between the threads. With the conical joint, the two surfaces are almost touching each other entirely. I do not know of any other joint which is as tight as the conical joint.
The Layani conical joint is a very light joint although it is made of steel. It hits very much like a wood to wood joint in my opinion. It is not noisy at all. I find that the hit is extremely soild.
I used to be a big fan of the radial pin. With the conical joint, I feel that I am getting a more consistent hit because the joint is very stable against moisture and temperature variation. Also, with the conical joint, there is no expansion/contraction on the wood female when the ball is striked. I believe it offers better radial consistency.
Anyway, the best thing to do is to contact Thierry and try one out yourself.
Since joint preference is very subjective, you need to try it out yourself in order to make your own informed decision.
I have a picture of the joint here for you.
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nipponbilliards said:
this is the first time i've ever seen a conical joint. i would not think the screw has a better tolerance than the radial pin, which everyone is using. however, what seems interesting to me is that there would be more surface connection because the cone has more surface.
the shortness of the pin makes me nervous as hell.
drivermaker
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
Very interesting...I've never seen one either. How does this differ or compare to the Lambros Ultra joint. Do you have one of those that you can do a side by side picture?
The Lambros joint is wood to wood with phenolic collar.drivermaker said:
Not phenolic to steel with no wood touching wood.
my cue has an accu-loc that has the the threads kind of inside the but and just a long metal piece (that usually has the threads in a normal joint) this joint i really like, I've never owned a cue that used any different kind of joint, but I will say that I haven't had any problems with it, and I really like the feel of my cue... also.. as a side note.. the layani cues are B-E-A-utiful
That is true with 5/16 14 pin and worn-out threads on 3/8 10.
There is not much play with 5/16 18 and radial pins.
Or with 3/8 10 with an undersized tapped/threaded hole; they are tight.
The concept of the conical is very innovative. This joint is so different that convention concept does not apply. Actually, the longer the pin, the weaker the joint will be. Most people comment that the Layani joint hits the closet to a one-piece cue; in other words, it hits like there isn't any joint.
Thierry Layani should be the best guy to explain this. But let me try the best I could.
I remember Thierry told me when he first invented this conical joint, they built a prototype which was so tight they could not take the cue apart. After that, they came out with another model which did not require a pin. Yes, that is right! No pin--only a conical male and a conical female. The cue played and hit very solid. However, as you can imagine, the shaft will fall down when the cue is held up side down.
This prototype proved that the conical joint can very effectively transmit energy down the cue without the help of any thread. When threads are involved, there will always be movements and thus energy lost because of the gaps between the threads.
The short pin is just there to prevent the shaft from falling off. The cue does not rely on the pin to keep it tight.
I have a Lambros which I can take a picture of. But the Lambros is in Japan and I am not, so it may take a few days before I can get the picture. The hit of the Lambros is quite different from the hit of a Layani. I find the Layani to be more quiet.
I cannot see the inside of the joint to see how tight the joint is. I can look at the angle of the male and the female to know that there is really no gap. As a matter of fact, the only gaps come from the gaps between the male and the female of the short pin. The longer the pin, the more gaps there will be.
The cone is self-centering. No matter which direction you push the cone, it will try to move back to the center. Whether you are hitting the ball hard or soft, the cone will try to bring the shaft back to its center axis and transmit energy down the middle of the cue.
With a conical joint, the movement is sideway from one side to another always swinging the cone back to its center. This movement is proportional to the magnitude of the hit. Also, this movement is truly radially consistent.
Of course, the hit of a cue is not only a result of the joint, the balance and the shaft taper and the overall construction are all very important.
Thierry Layani's cue usually hit very stiff and yet sensitive, the balance is nicely forward (about 19").
The joint is made of metal but is almost hollow so it is very light. Again, conventional judgement does not apply here, it does not hit like any regular metal joint--most people comment that it hits the closest to a one-piece cue.
Another picture showing the joint is attached.
I hope you will find my explanation helpful. There are more info on www.layanicues.com.
Thank you.
Richard
Thierry Layani should be the best guy to explain this. But let me try the best I could.
I remember Thierry told me when he first invented this conical joint, they built a prototype which was so tight they could not take the cue apart. After that, they came out with another model which did not require a pin. Yes, that is right! No pin--only a conical male and a conical female. The cue played and hit very solid. However, as you can imagine, the shaft will fall down when the cue is held up side down.
This prototype proved that the conical joint can very effectively transmit energy down the cue without the help of any thread. When threads are involved, there will always be movements and thus energy lost because of the gaps between the threads.
The short pin is just there to prevent the shaft from falling off. The cue does not rely on the pin to keep it tight.
I have a Lambros which I can take a picture of. But the Lambros is in Japan and I am not, so it may take a few days before I can get the picture. The hit of the Lambros is quite different from the hit of a Layani. I find the Layani to be more quiet.
I cannot see the inside of the joint to see how tight the joint is. I can look at the angle of the male and the female to know that there is really no gap. As a matter of fact, the only gaps come from the gaps between the male and the female of the short pin. The longer the pin, the more gaps there will be.
The cone is self-centering. No matter which direction you push the cone, it will try to move back to the center. Whether you are hitting the ball hard or soft, the cone will try to bring the shaft back to its center axis and transmit energy down the middle of the cue.
With a conical joint, the movement is sideway from one side to another always swinging the cone back to its center. This movement is proportional to the magnitude of the hit. Also, this movement is truly radially consistent.
Of course, the hit of a cue is not only a result of the joint, the balance and the shaft taper and the overall construction are all very important.
Thierry Layani's cue usually hit very stiff and yet sensitive, the balance is nicely forward (about 19").
The joint is made of metal but is almost hollow so it is very light. Again, conventional judgement does not apply here, it does not hit like any regular metal joint--most people comment that it hits the closest to a one-piece cue.
Another picture showing the joint is attached.
I hope you will find my explanation helpful. There are more info on www.layanicues.com.
Thank you.
Richard
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I don't want to sound condascending Rich, but what you have there is a lot of phenolic and steel and it will emulate wood's reasonance/house cue hit?nipponbilliards said:
If the there is so much slop on regular pins, we'll all have to re-tighten our cues on every shot.
The best hitting cues I've tried have been a Zylr with a 3/8 11 pin, Hagan with a 5/16 18 pin and a Scruggs sneaky pete with a 5/16 14 pin. My taste must be good b/c those cues are well-sought after.
Ok, throw in a Petersen too. OK, billiard cues with wood pins too.
Hi Joey:JoeyInCali said:
Thank you for the comment. I am not here to say all the cues are bad. I have other cues that I play with as well. I just sold a Bender, and that was a lovely cue.
The Layani joint is a new concept and it is very different. As a matter of fact, it is so different it took me over a year to start to understand it.
I shared the same speculation when I first went to his web site. I used to think you need to see some wood touching each other at the joint in order to have a nice cue. I changed my mind after I tried my Layani cue. And it was a very hard concept for me to accept at first. Even after I was convinced, I had a hard time understanding why.
I think the best thing to do is to try the cue out. That is what I did. I ordered two cues from him and those two cues made me a believer.
I posted my last post trying to answer some questions that other members have posted. I believe the Layani conical joint is the tightest joint.
Convention joints are not so bad that you need to tighten up the cue every shot, but I believe the Layani joint is a better joint. It is a joint built on concepts "outside of the box" so to speak, and so it may sound very strange to most people at first.
A lot of cues hit great! It is not only the joint. And let's not forget everyone likes thing differently. Please understand that I do not come here to judge; I am here to share information. I do not mean to degrade anyone's cue; I want to introduce what I think is the best to everyone.
I know it is weird to think that without seeing any wood at the joint, how can a cue hit like a wood to wood joint? Actually, I think it hits better than a wood to wood joint.
May be if you can try it out, you will agree with me?
It reminds me of my snooker friend from Canada who believed a capped ferrule could not have any feedback. He believed a fibre ferrule uncapped with some wood touching the tip was very important. He also did not like any wrap (linen or leather) as he believed it would kill the hit since there should be nothing between the wood handle and the hand.
After he tried some of the best cues made for 9 ball, he now plays with a cue with a capped ferrule and a wrap--although he still does not really undertsand why he would like it. He still thinks a better cue should have wood directly touching his hand and that the tip should be in direct contact with the tip.
If I ever come to CA, I would love to meet you and let you try my cue. I would love to hear your feedbacks on the hit.
Richard
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If I ever come to CA, I would love to meet you and let you try my cue. I would love to hear your feedbacks on the hit.
Thnx bud.
I have cousins up there. They are near Winnepeg ( sp?). Maybe I'd pay them a visit.
Thnx bud.
I have cousins up there. They are near Winnepeg ( sp?). Maybe I'd pay them a visit.
Richard's reply says quite a lot I might just add a few things. First of all, the basic principles behing the conical is self-alignment and self-centering. There is actually no "gap" possible between the male and female cone, which is why the pin in itself doesn't serve any purpose. As Richard said, the first conical joint we developped was actually self-locking. The pressure applied on the male cone is so strong (any other material than metal would eventually split) that the two cones (at a steeper angle) would simply stick together. This was actually a problem when you needed to break down the cue, also a miscue would break the cue apart. To correct this problem we decided to use a lesser angle and a small pin (that could actually be even smaller). The pin doesn't really need to be that tight since it is only there to hold the two cones together but does not play any mechanical role, there is abolutely no tension on the pin as opposed to a "standard" joint where the pin is there to prevent the two pieces to separate. Actually with the conical joint, when you hit the cue ball the 2 cones will actually try to stick together instead of trying to separate. The reason why it reacts like that is because the radial forces at play are more or less equal to the axial forces (as where a standard joint is only affected by axial forces). If you increase the radial forces by having a steeper angle the force binding the cones will become stronger than the force trying to separate them.
Regarding the material, we made some very interesting testing about ten years ago with different materials. It seems that the way the conical joint transmits the vibration is more important than the material use to transmit the vibration, In other words, the joint being wood, phenolic, stainless or aluminum transmitted more or less the same type of hit as if the mechanical configuration provided a similar hit independantly of the material. This was very interesting because that is evidently not the case with a "standard joint". As far as ressembling the hit of a one piece cue, I'm not sure if this is correct. It's true that the hit is very quiet and solid at the same time and that it does not feel at all like a metal joint but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it feels like a one piece. It has his own feel for sure though.
I hope all this information helps.
Thierry Layani
www.layanicues.com
Regarding the material, we made some very interesting testing about ten years ago with different materials. It seems that the way the conical joint transmits the vibration is more important than the material use to transmit the vibration, In other words, the joint being wood, phenolic, stainless or aluminum transmitted more or less the same type of hit as if the mechanical configuration provided a similar hit independantly of the material. This was very interesting because that is evidently not the case with a "standard joint". As far as ressembling the hit of a one piece cue, I'm not sure if this is correct. It's true that the hit is very quiet and solid at the same time and that it does not feel at all like a metal joint but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it feels like a one piece. It has his own feel for sure though.
I hope all this information helps.
Thierry Layani
www.layanicues.com
Wow, I learned a lot of stuff here! We are lucky to have such knowledge to access!
drivermaker
Banned
Black-Balled said:
Now, in your own words, reexplain everything that's been brought up by the various posters as you now understand it.
drivermaker
Banned
JoeyInCali said:
Is your taste that good, or are you falling in step with those seeking the mentioned cues who really know what they're talking about? LOL....JK
In your best George Balabushka impersonation when explaining the hit of a cue, tell me what makes the Zylr, Hagan stand out. I've never hit with either, but many times someone will come on and describe the hit being great when it has a very soft hit, like going through butter and you hardly know you've even hit the ball. Some have mentioned the softer hit of a Layani in this fashion.
Others will describe a great hit as a cue with a lot of feedback, more of a harsher hit along with some audible feedback. It seems to be appealing to more of their senses.
What I DON'T want to hear is that it's somewhat of a medium hit. What the hell does that mean? To me it's a run-of-the-mill, middle of the road cue that's just like 9 million other cues out there and says that EVERYTHING hits great.
I know what I like but I'm not saying because I don't want to influence you.
So, what's the difference with the Zylr and Hagan? And from your experience do ALL the Zylrs and Hagans play the same or did you just happen to get a standout?
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drivermaker
Banned
nipponbilliards said:
Quite nice looking.