conical joint

[mljl]

correction

The term concave and convex are defined soley by the shape of a closed surface.! Not if the surface is sherical or straight. For the math uninformed here is an intuitive link that describes this.http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/convex.html As for my joint the US patent office defined it as concave / convex. Their lawyers/engineers are far more suited for this, so be it no need for interpretation. The functionality of the ultra joint is not merely handwaving but applied physics. 1)The mirrowed surfaces do not just slip together and stop, there is a defined interfence fit performing a compresion fit of the shaft into the butt. The vectored compression forces are strong enough that it will split any unsupported wooden , or ivory joint. Therefore phenolic or steel are the only joint materials on an ultra joint cue.
2) This all takes place below the defined butt/shaft joint surface . It in essance extending the shaft into the butt unitizing both. The synergism of this provides a more solid support of the shaft to the butt enhancing a one piece feel, and provides a sysem where the shaft cannot act independantly. No flat face or piloted f.f. joint can provide this.
I hope this will clearify, not start !!!!!!.
Mike L.

 

[Thomas Wayne]

The term concave and convex are defined soley by the shape of a closed surface.! Not if the surface is sherical or straight. For the math uninformed here is an intuitive link that describes this.http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/convex.html As for my joint the US patent office defined it as concave / convex. Their lawyers/engineers are far more suited for this, so be it no need for interpretation. The functionality of the ultra joint is not merely handwaving but applied physics. 1)The mirrowed surfaces do not just slip together and stop, there is a defined interfence fit performing a compresion fit of the shaft into the butt. The vectored compression forces are strong enough that it will split any unsupported wooden , or ivory joint. Therefore phenolic or steel are the only joint materials on an ultra joint cue.
2) This all takes place below the defined butt/shaft joint surface . It in essance extending the shaft into the butt unitizing both. The synergism of this provides a more solid support of the shaft to the butt enhancing a one piece feel, and provides a sysem where the shaft cannot act independantly. No flat face or piloted f.f. joint can provide this.
I hope this will clearify, not start !!!!!!.
Mike L.

I also hold a patent of my own, and have assisted in the writing of many others. The US Patent Office typically uses (and often requires the use of) unusual, complex, and archaic language in their quest to define physical objects and concepts using only words. This is because the only portion of a patent that carries any legal weight is the written claims (images, abstracts, plain-language descriptions, and other portions of a patent do NOT form the basis for intellectual property ownership). So it is not uncommon to find confusing, or unusual word usage within patent claims - wherein conventional definitions are less important than descriptions that narrowly define an invention. The average person attempting to read and understand a patent would find it cumbersome and possibly unintelligible.

Also, just to clarify, patent office claims examiners are only required to have a 4-year college degree, and that degree need NOT necessarily be in engineering. Virtually none of them are "lawyers", and patent office attorneys typically are not involved at the claims examination level unless there is an official challenge to a claim OR the proposed invention involved certain fields of practice such as medicine or munitions. So it's unlikely that any patent office "lawyers" were involved in examining a pool cue joint patent.

It's interesting to me that you linked to a children's "math-is-fun" website, but when I am seeking to understand an English language word or phrase I generally prefer to rely on sources that would be more on a college level or above. Here are the first few I found:

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary: Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concave:

The MacMillan Dictionary: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/concave

Anyone curious enough to follow those links will find that these respected references ALL define "concave" (and "convex") specifically referring to curved surfaces. Now granted, none of them are a Math-Is-Fun cornucopia of knowledge for elementary school kids, but as sources of fact they do carry some weight in the academic world.

All of that said, the REAL question is whether your "Ultra Joint" has tapered-cone surfaces or curved / semi-spherical surfaces. The ones I've examined appeared to be straight cones, and I cannot imagine any advantage to employing curved surfaces - but of course YOU are the one who knows what configuration you use.

TW

.

 

[scdiveteam]

Pure gibberish.

The Lambros joint does NOT involve any mating surfaces that are "concave and convex", by their accepted definitions. It's a simple male/female taper, and the correct seating - and refacing of the joint halves (if ever required) - can be accomplished with a very simple set of matched forming tools. These types of tapered seats have been fabricated for many, MANY purposes for well over 100 years,

TW

Pure Gibberish or Lambros Applied Engineering as a cue maker that raised the bar of expectation.:scratchhead:

I will cast my vote for the latter.

George Brittner Ray Schuler, and Mike Lambros are exceptional people that had their own vision on joining a two piece cue. :bow-down:

JMO,

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Pure Gibberish or Lambros Applied Engineering as a cue maker that raised the bar of expectation.

I will cast my vote for the latter.

George Brittner Ray Schuler, and Mike Lambros are exceptional people that had their own vision on joining a two piece cue.

JMO,

Rick

Some gave up and made them one-piece instead.

 

[cueman]

I for one must admit that I have gotten terms wrong at times. For example when I first started building cues I used to call a tool rest on a wood lathe a steady rest.

Concaved and convex seem to mean curved in and out. I have heard the term convex used to describe 60 degree conical live centers. I am now guessing that term was used incorrectly. I looked up definitions again and came up with this term Convex Cone. I read it and still do not understand it. So here it is if you want to try to put in simple English what Convex Cone is talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convex_cone

 

[DaveK]

It's interesting to me that you linked to a children's "math-is-fun" website, but when I am seeking to understand an English language word or phrase I generally prefer to rely on sources that would be more on a college level or above. Here are the first few I found:

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary: Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concave:

The MacMillan Dictionary: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/concave

Anyone curious enough to follow those links will find that these respected references ALL define "concave" (and "convex") specifically referring to curved surfaces. Now granted, none of them are a Math-Is-Fun cornucopia of knowledge for elementary school kids, but as sources of fact they do carry some weight in the academic world.

All of that said, the REAL question is whether your "Ultra Joint" has tapered-cone surfaces or curved / semi-spherical surfaces. The ones I've examined appeared to be straight cones, and I cannot imagine any advantage to employing curved surfaces - but of course YOU are the one who knows what configuration you use.

TW

.

I previously stated that "convex" and "concave" implied curves (not straight lines as defined by two points). After reading Mr. Lambros post I did a bit more research and discovered that the general meaning of "concave" and "convex" could include functions made up of straight lines.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ConvexFunction.html

Please note that this is not a dictionary defining English words, rather it is a respected mathematics site. One of the references looks interesting for those so inclined :

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198531478/ref=nosim/weisstein-20

I do stand by the common understanding that "convex" and "concave" imply curves to the vast majority of people, even mathematically educated folks.

I also believe that the Lambros Ultra joint is a conical style with straight tapers, and that the terms "concave" and "convex" in the patent should be read as "female" and "male" respectively by anyone attempting to understand the application, as noted by Ryan.

Dave

 

[mljl]

clearification

The terms convex & concave apply to radiuses suraces such as mirrors,but also apply to polygons to define their shape.
By math term convex is defined as;
1) a closed surface containing no interior angles greater than 180 deg.
2) a line segment drawn between any 2 interior points lies entirely within the figure.
If extended will only cross 2 sides.
Concave is defined as;
1) a closed surface containing an interior angle greater than 180 deg.
2) a line segment drawn between 2 interior points will also cross outside the figure.
If extended it will cross 4 sides.
As by the mathematical definitions these terms apply to both straight line polygons as well as radiuses.
Try this site out for a more info. http://www.rustycode.com/tutorials/convex.html. If higher level texts are needed than you just don't understand fundamentals and I am not interested in manipulating language with you TW. Any reference book worth its weight should define both applications. If you are as scholared as you purtend then you should understand this as well as I.
Anyone who wishes more in depth info on my ultra joint please pm me. The actual science involves not only mechanical but wavelength impedance matching. The mathematics involved requires 3rd order differential equations. Enough said. I am not interested in debating manipulated terminology.
Closed!
Mike L.

 

[ceebee]

Guido Orlandi designed a CONE JOINT for his cues using the principles used in industry, generally referred to a joint called the Morse Taper. It has far better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint. The cone joint also guarantees the concentricity of the centroids of the two adjoining members. I believe the energy that flows down the shaft has a different feel than a flat faced joint.

I like my Orlandi Cue & so does anyone that has played with it. Will it change the world...? HaHaHa
But it changed my game, that is all I'm in control of ...Me.

 

[DaveK]

Guido Orlandi designed a CONE JOINT for his cues using the principles used in industry, generally referred to a joint called the Morse Taper. It has far better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint. The cone joint also guarantees the concentricity of the centroids of the two adjoining members. ...

Interesting. I suspect the use of the term "Morse Taper" was as a familiar term rather than an accurate description. Morse tapers are locking tapers, seat them and they stay put, they wedge together. For example, to get a Morse taper drill out of a socket you typically use a "drift" and a hammer to loosen the lock. Tapers certainly align parts nicely, but depending on the angle of the taper they can and do lock together.

Google "locking taper" and "taper pin" for more detail.

http://www.gizmology.net/tapers.htm

https://www.acklandsgrainger.com/AG...balProductDetailDisplay.do?item_code=WWG2XUU6

Dave <-- not interested in using a drift to get his cue apart

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

--------------

 

[ceebee]

Yes, a Morse Taper can & will lock when used. It is designed to do that. In industry we sometimes consider anything less than 7 degrees a locking angle, meaning you can clamp & locate on a surface of less than 7 degrees.

Yes, you do use a drift pin to loosen the Morse Taper...

If the Morse Taper had threads to separate it, applying some torque would do the job as well. The cone joint has a 16 degree taper, that requires a screw thread to loosen it & make it repeatable. Lapping the surfaces also gives the joint good stability.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Guido Orlandi designed a CONE JOINT for his cues using the principles used in industry, generally referred to a joint called the Morse Taper. It has far better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint. The cone joint also guarantees the concentricity of the centroids of the two adjoining members. I believe the energy that flows down the shaft has a different feel than a flat faced joint.

I like my Orlandi Cue & so does anyone that has played with it. Will it change the world...? HaHaHa
But it changed my game, that is all I'm in control of ...Me.

How does that have better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint?

 

[DaveK]

Yes, a Morse Taper can & will lock when used. It is designed to do that. In industry we sometimes consider anything less than 7 degrees a locking angle, meaning you can clamp & locate on a surface of less than 7 degrees.

Yes, you do use a drift pin to loosen the Morse Taper...

If the Morse Taper had threads to separate it, applying some torque would do the job as well. The cone joint has a 16 degree taper, that requires a screw thread to loosen it & make it repeatable. Lapping the surfaces also gives the joint good stability.

Exactly. I suspect the naming of the joint was done to convey a taper, rather than to define the taper angle / function. I have never seen a "screw-out" Morse Taper, I suspect there would be significant resistance to the torque, rotating the surfaces against each other when locked might be a bad idea. This is just my intuition.

I also suspect that any tapered cue joint would be a "fast taper" that does not lock. Any that I've seen would fit that category.

Dave

 

[ceebee]

How does that have better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint?

In industry, you never locate on a threaded fastener's diameter, for close tolerance work. A threaded fastener can have some sideways movement, even though it may be acceptable for the function at hand.

You always use a diameter, such as a face on a shoulder or use a dowel pin for locating purposes..

 

[DaveK]

How does that have better alignment characteristics than a flat faced joint?

Ultimately a well built tapered joint will have zero clearance. All other forms of alignment would seem to need some small amount of clearance to get the parts together.

Dave

 

[ceebee]

Exactly. I suspect the naming of the joint was done to convey a taper, rather than to define the taper angle / function. I have never seen a "screw-out" Morse Taper, I suspect there would be significant resistance to the torque, rotating the surfaces against each other when locked might be a bad idea. This is just my intuition.

I also suspect that any tapered cue joint would be a "fast taper" that does not lock. Any that I've seen would fit that category.

Dave

I doubt that you will ever see a threaded Morse taper, I was just mentioning the fact that a thread might have the ability to dislodge the mate up. I realize the mating surfaces would resist the movement, because of friction, thus the reason for NOT putting threads on a Morse Taper.

Guido's Cone Joint is used on a Cue Stick, with a non locking angle, a finish about 32 & it works very good. I sometimes need to have another person help me unscrew the joint.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Ultimately a well built tapered joint will have zero clearance. All other forms of alignment would seem to need some small amount of clearance to get the parts together.

Dave

Sounds good.

 

[gutshot]

Mike is correct here. Most people associate the terms concave and convex to curved surfaces, but they also apply to closed linear surfaces like cones, polygons, etc. Simply stated, concave means the interior angles are more than 180 degrees while convex means the interior angles are less than 180 degrees).

Kelly <---- Degree in Structural Engineering

The term concave and convex are defined soley by the shape of a closed surface.! Not if the surface is sherical or straight. For the math uninformed here is an intuitive link that describes this.http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/convex.html As for my joint the US patent office defined it as concave / convex. Their lawyers/engineers are far more suited for this, so be it no need for interpretation. The functionality of the ultra joint is not merely handwaving but applied physics. 1)The mirrowed surfaces do not just slip together and stop, there is a defined interfence fit performing a compresion fit of the shaft into the butt. The vectored compression forces are strong enough that it will split any unsupported wooden , or ivory joint. Therefore phenolic or steel are the only joint materials on an ultra joint cue.
2) This all takes place below the defined butt/shaft joint surface . It in essance extending the shaft into the butt unitizing both. The synergism of this provides a more solid support of the shaft to the butt enhancing a one piece feel, and provides a sysem where the shaft cannot act independantly. No flat face or piloted f.f. joint can provide this.
I hope this will clearify, not start !!!!!!.
Mike L.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

----------------------

 

[JoeyInCali]

----------------------

" Make him stay, Murph!".
My Morse code is rusty.
Wait, is that binary? :grin: