Considered A Pivot or No?

TheConArtist

TheConArtist

Daddy's A Butcher
Silver Member
I posted a post saying i believed Gerda showed a pivot a slight on on a shot during her title win recently. And this is how they showed her down on the shot, Shane Van Boening does the same thing on this clip i wanted to show. I know i pivot but i don't really do a big pivot arch as some would call it. Basically how SVB does it here.

I wanted to ask all the pivoters out there is this condered a pivot or just adjusting for english? But if he is adjusting doesn't he adjust for center cueball? Thx in advance

Watch at 6:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P5YMZSEovg&feature=related
 
It looks like a small hip pivot back to center. If you look at the joint of his stick it seems to show this. Whether he is pivoting for an aiming system or just checking his alignment is not clear with one shot.
 
You find it interesting though? Cause this is how i pivot on shots, and if its not a pivot then i know nothing about CTE as to what i thought i knew.

I might have to post up a slow motion clip of Gerda doing the same thing, well almost.
 
TheConArtist said:
You find it interesting though? Cause this is how i pivot on shots, and if its not a pivot then i know nothing about CTE as to what i thought i knew.

I might have to post up a slow motion clip of Gerda doing the same thing, well almost.
Click to expand...

I use the same pivot with 90/90. My cue placement is more obvious because I've been doing it only a short time. SVB's movement back to center was alot more subtle than my move.
 
it was very subtle. Dunno what to make of it. He may have been tempted to throw some low outside or inside on the shot, then amended it. Gerda is a CTE user, this is known for sure. Dunno if shane does. His long bridge means pivots would have to be quite small and precise. Personally I think he uses hamb, but that's just a gut feeling.
 
CreeDo said:
it was very subtle. Dunno what to make of it. He may have been tempted to throw some low outside or inside on the shot, then amended it. Gerda is a CTE user, this is known for sure. Dunno if shane does. His long bridge means pivots would have to be quite small and precise. Personally I think he uses hamb, but that's just a gut feeling.
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Come on, that was very easily a pivot. You all ask for proof than make other guesses for what it is.
 
cookie man said:
Come on, that was very easily a pivot. You all ask for proof than make other guesses for what it is.
Click to expand...

You see what you want to see. "OMG shane moved his stick to the left and right while cuing up! It must be CTE!"

99% of serious pool players don't know CTE. Is that fair to say?
Yet 100% of those players do move their tip to the left or right at some point before settling on a contact point and firing.

Stan Shuffet himself has said that you can't spot CTE just by looking at the shooter, as they can hide the movement at will. Convenient. zzzzzzz.
 
CreeDo said:
... Gerda is a CTE user, this is known for sure....
Click to expand...

What seems to be known is that she has learned the technique from Stan. We do not know whether she actually uses it in competition.

I said in another thread that it did not appear to me that she was using it in the San Diego tournament she won back in March, at least in the portions I watched. Stan subsequently posted that use of the technique can be subtle enough that an observer would not be able to tell, but he did not know whether Gerda was using it.
 
CreeDo said:
You see what you want to see. "OMG shane moved his stick to the left and right while cuing up! It must be CTE!"

99% of serious pool players don't know CTE. Is that fair to say?
Yet 100% of those players do move their tip to the left or right at some point before settling on a contact point and firing.

Stan Shuffet himself has said that you can't spot CTE just by looking at the shooter, as they can hide the movement at will. Convenient. zzzzzzz.
Click to expand...

All I said was he pivoted, didn't say he used CTE. Your explaination was he was still trying to figure out low left or low right, while down on the shot, how ridiculous is that statement describing a pro about to shoot.
I would not say 99% of serious pool players don't know CTE, it's the most debated thing on AZ. 100% percent of serious pool players move their tip left and right as they go to shoot, that's insane.
I also know what Stan said, and it is rare that someone can pick up on that. Stan also stated pivoting is overated, you really need to find out more of what your talking about, you don't make alot of sense.
 
CreeDo said:
You see what you want to see. "OMG shane moved his stick to the left and right while cuing up! It must be CTE!"
Click to expand...
That's ridiculous!

It is totally obvious to me that SVB is using DAM and VEPS to correct his aim. That is totally obvious to anybody who has fully studied the DAM and VEPS approaches.

Regards,
Dave
 
AtLarge said:
What seems to be known is that she has learned the technique from Stan. We do not know whether she actually uses it in competition.

I said in another thread that it did not appear to me that she was using it in the San Diego tournament she won back in March, at least in the portions I watched. Stan subsequently posted that use of the technique can be subtle enough that an observer would not be able to tell, but he did not know whether Gerda was using it.
Click to expand...

This is why I made this thread as I've seen Gerda doing the same thing on my recorded DVR match. You could only see her doing it on slow mo. I'm not sure she was doing this on everyshot as how long she has been playing, aiming is probably just natural to her. I'll post up the clip later tonight
 
Ok cookie, you said he pivoted. Why would I think a CTE guy was trying to claim it was CTE? Crazy.

Even pros change their mind after getting down sometimes. They realize that what looked good when fully upright looks a little different when down on the ball. They don't always stand back up at that point, they just re-align.

I don't think shane translated all the way from low left to low right or vice versa. He just decided going more to the center was wiser.

As for believing lots of people know CTE just because it's highly debated... ok, go to any CTE debate thread and count how many people in the thread claim they definitely know it. That's not everyone who truly knows, just everyone who claims they get it. Let me know if you get past one hand when counting.

And when I say all players have moved their tip after getting down, I didn't say all the way from left to right (like low inside to low outside) and I didn't say every single shot. Duh. I just mean we have ALL changed tip placement while down on a ball. Doesn't make it a pivot. If I switch from center to top right, would you suspect I'm using some new vertical pivot system?

If I find video of shane pointing his tip at the contact point, can I claim he's definitely ghostballing?
 
Not that my opinon matters but from my observation Shane's aiming is more like CTE. He seems to swing his cue in from the side rather than laying it down on the line.

This is the same motion that CTE users have when they are settling in on the line.

At least it's the same motion that I have and also the same motion is Dave Segal has when he gets down on the ball.

As I stated the other day when I played a very good player here I observed that he also shoots with a CTE-like approach.

So I don't know if this is something that very good players develop naturally or if they are taught it in some form.

I know from speaking to Rodney Morris that he was taught to aim at portions of the object ball rather than at specific contact points.

Anyway that's just my observation by looking at the video.
 
CreeDo said:
Ok cookie, you said he pivoted. Why would I think a CTE guy was trying to claim it was CTE? Crazy.

Even pros change their mind after getting down sometimes. They realize that what looked good when fully upright looks a little different when down on the ball. They don't always stand back up at that point, they just re-align.

I don't think shane translated all the way from low left to low right or vice versa. He just decided going more to the center was wiser.

As for believing lots of people know CTE just because it's highly debated... ok, go to any CTE debate thread and count how many people in the thread claim they definitely know it. That's not everyone who truly knows, just everyone who claims they get it. Let me know if you get past one hand when counting.

And when I say all players have moved their tip after getting down, I didn't say all the way from left to right (like low inside to low outside) and I didn't say every single shot. Duh. I just mean we have ALL changed tip placement while down on a ball. Doesn't make it a pivot. If I switch from center to top right, would you suspect I'm using some new vertical pivot system?

If I find video of shane pointing his tip at the contact point, can I claim he's definitely ghostballing?
Click to expand...

You've made several claims about this one shot already. My claim is that he used CTE to shoot this shot. I know what to look for(do you), and what I see is typical movement of a CTE shot. I will not say you can see his pivot on all shots nor that he uses CTE on all shots, just that he did on this one. So keep on guessing.
 
CreeDo said:
Ok cookie, you said he pivoted. Why would I think a CTE guy was trying to claim it was CTE? Crazy.

Even pros change their mind after getting down sometimes. They realize that what looked good when fully upright looks a little different when down on the ball. They don't always stand back up at that point, they just re-align.

I don't think shane translated all the way from low left to low right or vice versa. He just decided going more to the center was wiser.

As for believing lots of people know CTE just because it's highly debated... ok, go to any CTE debate thread and count how many people in the thread claim they definitely know it. That's not everyone who truly knows, just everyone who claims they get it. Let me know if you get past one hand when counting.

And when I say all players have moved their tip after getting down, I didn't say all the way from left to right (like low inside to low outside) and I didn't say every single shot. Duh. I just mean we have ALL changed tip placement while down on a ball. Doesn't make it a pivot. If I switch from center to top right, would you suspect I'm using some new vertical pivot system?

If I find video of shane pointing his tip at the contact point, can I claim he's definitely ghostballing?
Click to expand...

Creedo, I usually find myself in agreement with you, and I actually am on your side of this argument (I don't think that's conclusive evidence of what system, if any, Shane uses), but I must protest your claim that he was merely adjusting what type of english he uses, and here's why: he doesn't take a practice stroke after the pivot.

Good players know that if you've lined up to hit a shot with english, and you change your mind on what type of english, you don't just move the tip and fire; you'll always miss, especially on a longish firm shot like the one in question. Either you stand up and reapproach the shot, or at the very least you adjust your tip position, bridge position, and take several practice strokes to visually check that everything's been adjusted the right way.

I do believe that on this shot, for whatever reason, SVB lined up and went through his routine knowing that he was going to pivot back to center as a last step. What that proves, I don't know.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Creedo, I usually find myself in agreement with you, and I actually am on your side of this argument (I don't think that's conclusive evidence of what system, if any, Shane uses), but I must protest your claim that he was merely adjusting what type of english he uses, and here's why: he doesn't take a practice stroke after the pivot.

Good players know that if you've lined up to hit a shot with english, and you change your mind on what type of english, you don't just move the tip and fire; you'll always miss, especially on a longish firm shot like the one in question. Either you stand up and reapproach the shot, or at the very least you adjust your tip position, bridge position, and take several practice strokes to visually check that everything's been adjusted the right way.

I do believe that on this shot, for whatever reason, SVB lined up and went through his routine knowing that he was going to pivot back to center as a last step. What that proves, I don't know.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

This is a good point. I hate to use BHE so after I pivot I get back up and back down. I have found my aiming line and then adjust for the english I need. I never move my tip on the CB. I'd have to swoop and steer to compensate for the side spin.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Creedo, I usually find myself in agreement with you, and I actually am on your side of this argument (I don't think that's conclusive evidence of what system, if any, Shane uses), but I must protest your claim that he was merely adjusting what type of english he uses, and here's why: he doesn't take a practice stroke after the pivot.

Good players know that if you've lined up to hit a shot with english, and you change your mind on what type of english, you don't just move the tip and fire; you'll always miss, especially on a longish firm shot like the one in question. Either you stand up and reapproach the shot, or at the very least you adjust your tip position, bridge position, and take several practice strokes to visually check that everything's been adjusted the right way.

I do believe that on this shot, for whatever reason, SVB lined up and went through his routine knowing that he was going to pivot back to center as a last step. What that proves, I don't know.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Good point andrew and I accept that as I have not heard SVB claim to use CTE. It just looks like he does.
 
Yesterday on teh TAR stream Shane was asked how he aims. He was VERY CLEAR that he uses his cue to aim and that it's something he says comes natural to him. He said he uses that side of the ferrule but did not elaborate on it.

He did say quite clearly that people use the cue ball to aim and that "this is wrong" according to him.

Considering Shane's success rate someone should make it a mission to find out exactly how he aims.

He said that what he does is very easy.
 
I think every shot has a different affect !

If I shoot a shot of Patron compared to a shot of schnapps my whole pivot point moves...but maybe it's just me :thumbup:
 
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