....controversial

SpiderWebComm said:
Well, in just 5 minutes I completed my education on twisting.

Keith's exact words were, "I twist on nearly every shot... don't listen to those people."

He opened my eyes to twisting into the center axis.... holy shit batman, i learned a new toy. ;)

WOOOOOOOOW
Click to expand...

Oh well. What the hell, checkers sells more than chess.

:thumbup:
 
Quote:
Spidey's alternatives:
1. those who strike the CB dead-on with a straight cue
2. those who INTENTIONALLY swipe across the face
3. some pivot the cue pre-shot and stroke across the face from that position
1 & 3 are the same thing. 2 accomplishes the same thing as 1 & 3 but with more moving parts.

When the tip is stroked straight through the CB (1 or 3 above) its "angle of approach" is the line from your bridge to the contact point.

When the tip is "swiped" across the CB's face (2 above) its "angle of approach" is the line from a place beside your bridge to the contact point.

You can create the swiped angle of approach (2 above) by simply moving your bridge hand a little sideways and stroking straight at the contact point from that new angle (1 or 3 above). The results will be identical, but much more accurate, consistent and reliable.

Pool is simple. Doing it perfectly is the hard part. Don't add unnecessary complications.

pj
chgo

1 & 3 are totally different... the angles of attack are completely different. 2 & 3 have a similar angle of attack upon contacting the CB-- maybe that was a typo?

Comparing 1 to 2/3 isn't as easy as moving your bridge over. That's like saying parallel english is the same as backhand english. I might be misreading your post though, I'm not sure.

Pool isn't simple. If it were simple, everyone here would be on tour. Doing it perfectly is so hard, nearly no one on earth can do it. The only purpose for my posts is to explain that these techniques aren't "bad" and add "complication" --- for many legends and world-beaters, they actually "simplify." I'll leave it at that - take from it what you will.

I'm not saying these techniques are the best for everyone or that they're the only way to play. I'm only saying that for some advanced players, it's an intentional method to reduce variation and play better. That's all. ;)
 
It was mentioned in an earlier post that Johnny Holiday presented a wrist-twist technique in one of his books that was published in the ‘70’s. That is precisely where and when I first learned the wrist-twist technique. Early on I used the technique primarily for very thin cuts, for example, a severe cut to my corner pocket in a game of one-pocket.

In 1998 I spent some time with Don Feeney and he shared with me his total understanding of the wrist-twist technique. Don was adamant that the technique produced terrific spin and less associated squirt because of tip contact closer to the vertical axis of the cue ball. Within a few months after my visit with Don I became much more proficient with the technique.

For the past few years during my side-spin lessons I would typically demonstrate a few spin shots and have my students do the same. Invariably my cue ball would spin like crazy and the student’s cue ball would turn less. I was aware of my wrist twist and did not share exactly what was happening. Needless to say, I felt a little guilty. (Now I present the technique in a particular context.)

During the spring of this year I crossed paths with legendary banker, Truman Hogue. Truman came to my home teaching facility prepared to demonstrate and explain 32 bank shots which would ultimately become a curriculum named KENTUCKY BANKS. After about 100 hours of work the 32shots were put into manual-form. Of the 32 banks that Truman designated for the manual, I’d say at least 25 of them have the shooter engaging in a wrist-twist technique. Truman uses the technique for all of his spin shots. (Learn more about Truman and his upcoming classes at www.trumanhogue.com. Truman’s schedule beginning this November will fill quickly. **Any player can have the option to employ the technique or not during the course. Wrist-twist is not mandatory.)

My experiences dictate what I teach. I can no longer justify keeping this powerful technique dormant during my instructional time with students. I think most students will benefit from being exposed to this technique whether it’s for educational awareness or for improvement in personal performance.

The wrist-twist technique can best be monitored by paying attention to the index knuckle of grip hand at the finish of one’s stroke. For right spin the knuckle can turn downward by as little as an eighth of an inch up to as much as 1 inch. For left spin, the index knuckle may turn or rotate upward to the left very minimally. This technique is not complicated if properly learned.

As Rempe has explained, the tip of the cue remains on the cue ball a moment longer than typical during the swiping motion. It’s this longer moment that allows our fingers to feel the tip at the cue ball. It’s at this moment that “small motions” happen; those little movements in our fingers that ultimately let us control our cues with more and more precision.

When 2 players compete they can be likened to warriors. The warrior with the most weapons is the one that I’d like to take sides with. The wrist-twist is a weapon! For sure, Landon is happy is to have acquired this weapon. I am a stronger player and teacher because of having learned this technique.

-Stan Shuffett
www.justcueit.com
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
pj
chgo

P.S. Forgot to address this:



I grant this possibility, although I'm not convinced a straight stroke can't accomplish all of those things too. I'm talking about the idea that different "standard" cue ball effects (like CB spin or direction) can be produced with these techniques than with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Go to my blog and check out the post about "squeeze your butt". http://joeyaguzin.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post.html
Set up that shot, exactly as shown and detailed and try using a standard stroke with loose grip and then try using the technique I employ for this particular shot. I'm lucky if I can make it one out of ten using a loose grip and standard stroke technique.

Let me know if you have different success ratios and what they are.

If you start to answering critics too nicely, we will start taking you for granted and you will have to amp it up. :grin-square:

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
1 & 3 are totally different... the angles of attack are completely different.
Click to expand...

Angle of attack is the right focus, but there are really only two strokes to compare: straight and swooping, and they're identical in the angle of attack they produce. Any angle of attack from a swooping stroke can be duplicated by a straight stroke from a slightly different bridge position and vice verse. One produces no more spin or less squirt than the other. Their only difference is technique.

To some degree technique is a personal choice. Since it gets the same result, I choose simple.

pj
chgo
 
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Thank you, Stan Shuffett

Wow! I ask if someone can describe what Stan teaches regarding the wrist twist, and I get a detailed answer straight from the man himself three hours later.

This is the kind of thing that makes this forum so cool. I'm going to have to start posting more often.

Stan, I thought that one of the most interesting parts of your answer was your description of how subtle the action can be. You indicate that even a small amount of twist (say a 1/8 inch change in the index finger knuckle position) can have a dramatic effect on cue ball spin. I would have thought that a MUCH bigger twist was required.

Your description also covers another question that I had-- whether the twist could be used with equal effect for either right or left English.

One more question if you don't mind-- do you try to "time" your twist to the moment of contact, or do you smoothly turn the wrist throughout the forward stroke? I would have thought the latter, but this seems inconsistent with the small amount of movement that you are describing.

FWIW, I really thought that the whole topic of wrist twist was little more than a poolplayer's urban myth at the start of this discussion. I still have some doubts, but there are enough respected voices on here supporting the idea that I feel that I should at least give it a try.

Thanks again, Stan, for your detailed answer.
 
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It works

I use a little twist on very thin cuts

that I need to hit soft but get maximum spin.

IMO there are certain shots I couldnt execute with a normal stroke.
 
ChazL said:
Wow! I ask if someone can describe what Stan teaches regarding the wrist twist, and I get a detailed answer straight from the man himself three hours later.

This is the kind of thing that makes this forum so cool. I'm going to have to start posting more often.

Stan, I thought that one of the most interesting parts of your answer was your description of how subtle the action can be. You indicate that even a small amount of twist (say a 1/8 inch change in the index finger knuckle position) can have a dramatic effect on cue ball spin. I would have thought that a MUCH bigger twist was required.

Your description also covers another question that I had-- whether the twist could be used with equal effect for either right or left English.

One more question if you don't mind-- do you try to "time" your twist to the moment of contact, or do you smoothly turn the wrist throughout the forward stroke? I would have thought the latter, but this seems inconsistent with the small amount of movement that you are describing.

FWIW, I really thought that the whole topic of wrist twist was little more than a poolplayer's urban myth at the start of this discussion. I still have some doubts, but there are enough respected voices on here supporting the idea that I feel that I should at least give it a try.

Thanks again, Stan, for your detailed answer.
Click to expand...


ChazL,

The turn happens by feel at the moment of tip contact.

The smaller twists have less effect on spin. It depends on the shot.

With a level cue for a typical follow shot, the index finger should lead the way. The index finger is typically the guide for follow shots and it’s perfect for leading a left turn or a right turn. Again, a player’s recognition skills will dictate whether the technique is used for a particular shot.

As a player's cue elevates for draw, the angle of the cue slightly shifts its weight to the fingers behind the index. It is very acceptable for the ring finger or middle finger to lead the turn when using draw and spin. For example, a right-handed player may find that a left twist is more easily accomplished by allowing the ring finger to begin the turn when using draw and spin.

With practice this spin-technique becomes second-nature. Landon learned this and began using it within days.

Stan Shuffett
 
OK, yall...you got me intrigued. Can someone post a vid of them doing this "twist" thing? I'd like to see what your wrist is doing and what is happening on the tip of the cue. Those that use it (or learned it recently) are confident in its purpose, but I don't get how this can yield a repeatable (precision) and true (accurate) stroke.
 
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stan shuffett said:
ChazL,

The turn happens by feel at the moment of tip contact.

The smaller twists have less effect on spin. It depends on the shot.

With a level cue for a typical follow shot, the index finger should lead the way. The index finger is typically the guide for follow shots and it’s perfect for leading a left turn or a right turn. Again, a player’s recognition skills will dictate whether the technique is used for a particular shot.

As a player's cue elevates for draw, the angle of the cue slightly shifts its weight to the fingers behind the index. It is very acceptable for the ring finger or middle finger to lead the turn when using draw and spin. For example, a right-handed player may find that a left twist is more easily accomplished by allowing the ring finger to begin the turn when using draw and spin.

With practice this spin-technique becomes second-nature. Landon learned this and began using it within days.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

I have been only a recent user of "The Twist", although I did enjoy the Twist & Shout when I wore the younger man's clothes.

That video brings back memories for me. The Beatles came to New Orleans in 1964 and while I wasn't a super fan I liked their music and since I was working at the stadium they were playing at, I got in free. The cost for a concert ticket was $5 as I recall but I was there to make a dollar, selling cokes to thirsty fans. I would walk up and down the concrete steps carrying 12 Glass bottles of Barq's Root Beers or Coca-Cola's. I forget the price of a coke back then but I still remember the wire carrying devices which cut into my tender young hands and was always eager to sell them as quickly as possible to lighten my load. Can you imagine GLASS bottles being sold at concerts today? :D

The girls went absolutely INSANE when the Beatles came out on stage in the middle of the stadium and had to be held back by scores of police.

The sales of soft drinks stopped immediately and everyone's attention was on the Beatles. Many fans tried to rush the stands for whatever reason, most of them were girls but there were plenty of guys running up to the gauntlet of police who turned them and threatened them with arrest.

Me being a mercenary at an early age, I had no delusions about being a fan. I could only think what a valuable treasure I would have if I could wrench the drum sticks from Ringo Star's hands. I devised a plan and waited for opportunity. When the Beatles played one especially attractive song, "I want to hold your hand", the fans nearest the stage would attempt to attack the stage which was raised in the middle of a football field. The police stood on the field and turned back each wave.

Well, when this song started, the girls began to swoon and wail and rush the stage and that was my cue. I was at the other end of the football field where there were no policemen and at that time I was fleet of foot so I raced across the open football field like a wide receiver, running like the wind. I can still feel the adrenaline rush as my legs pumped faster than they had ever moved before. The thought of snatching Ringo Starr's drum sticks from his grasp and the selling the treasure at a later date filled my body with endorphines and I ran to my destiny.

The stadium was a cacophony of sounds, girls screaming like banshees, guys howling like young wolves (mostly to impress their girl friends) the Beatles singing and the noise that over ten thousand people can make when they are excited. My determination to succeed was only exceeded by my ignorance of the fact that there might be others who were fleet of foot, namely police officers paid to protect the Beatles from insane fans. I had made excellent time and wasn't even breathing hard even though I was running faster than I had ever tried to run before and was about 25 yards from the stage with nothing between Ringo's drum sticks and me when suddenly I hit the ground like a ton of bricks. I thought I tripped until I looked to my side to see a police officer looking rather winded but up to the task of apprehending me, then another and another and another, until I was escorted off the field and into the covering surrounding the outside of the stadium. They had twisted my hands behind my back and were making sure I didn't escape again. When they saw that I was no threat to them or the Beatles as I was finally done in and just plain whipped. I explained my plan and they kind of snickered and after I promised to not try that again, they let me go and I finished watching the show resting my bruised and tired body in the stands, even buying a not so cold soft drink from another inspired and still working entrepreneur.

Oh, back to this twist. :grin: While it is hard to fight academia, I do believe that I am able to accomplish some unique things using twist that I am UNABLE TO DO with any other traditional technique. If that makes it a bad technique, I WILL JUST HAVE TO BE RESIGNED TO BEING A BAD BOY. (Thank you Sister Mary Francesca). (Imagine ancient, old nun, dressed in traditional Catholic Nun Habit, shaking her crooked, arthritic finger in JoeyA's face scolding me for nefarious deeds perpetrated against the disciplines of the Catholic school and fortelling the future; "YOU'RE GONNA BE A BAD BOY!)

JoeyA
 
mosconiac said:
OK, yall...you got me intrigued. Can someone post a vid of them doing this "twist" thing? I'd like to see what your wrist is doing and what is happening on the tip of the cue. Those that use it (or learned it recently) are confident in its purpose, but I don't get how this can yield a repeatable (precision) and true (accurate) stroke.
Click to expand...

On some of the shots (not all) you can see my wrist action in this video.

Stroke Shots

.
.
.
 
JoeyA said:
I have been only a recent user of "The Twist", although I did enjoy the Twist & Shout when I wore the younger man's clothes.
Click to expand...

Well, shake it up, baby, now.
Shake it up, baby.
Twist and shout.
Twist and shout.
Come on, come on, come on, baby, now.
Come on, baby.
You've got to work it on out.
Work it on out.

Ringo was my fave! :o

Damn, that would have been a great title for a pool article: "Twist and Shout." Hmm, you got me thinking, JoeyA. :p
 
Blackjack said:
Watch any shot that Keith shoots -

Keith Vs Buddy

You see it very well at about 27:37 -
Click to expand...

Well, you know I had to look to see my ----- :wub:

In fact, you, Blackjack, just gave me the title I have been searching for, just now. Wow, it was right there in front of me, and I never thought of it. You're the BEST! :kiss:

Edited at 4:08 p.m., EST: OMG, JoeyA! LOL!
 
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