Cored with Phenolic Rod

[fiolledapool]

hi,

I woulk like to know if any cuemaker tryed cored forearm with natural phenolic rod and your results.
I used natural phenolic material for ferrules, tips, collars, joint inserts but never tried cored forearm.

thanks??

 

[gwjackal]

I do believe this is the premise behind the front end on the predator P3. But it not a very long core. I believe it would be useful in getting the balance point where you want it. I so that I had a cue (off topic) that Kevin Varney made where he used ABS as the core in BEM and the hit was amazing. I would personally think using G10 would be better in the aspect you could use it as a one piece core/pin to induce a very solid feel if installed with VERY tight tolerances.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

For me, I believe that the more NATURAL materials used in the making of a pool cue, the better the hit is. After all, haven't we heard it enough times, that we should try to emulate the hit of a one piece WOODEN cue. I think that coring should be done with other woods only & should be used sparingly. Plastic parts tend to give funny noises to pool cues...JER

 

[dave sutton]

Ive Seen Phenolic Handles. Very Stiff. Maybe For A Breaker But Feedback Would Be Different. Dont Think Id Personally Like It

 

[manwon]

hi,

I woulk like to know if any cuemaker tryed cored forearm with natural phenolic rod and your results.
I used natural phenolic material for ferrules, tips, collars, joint inserts but never tried cored forearm.

thanks??

I do it on every cue I build, however, I use Natural Phenolic tubing that is turned to .750 and has a .623 ID that is filled with Maple, Purple Heart, or a combination of woods for weight and balance considerations. I also core the cues butt with Phenolic Tubing that is back filled. Here the tubing go's two inches into the cue handle and all through the butt. All materials that make up the cues butt on my cues are cored and riding upon a Phenolic wood filled tube for strength and stability.

So I have to respectfully disagree with the other posters to this thread, although my cues do have a Phenolic Tube filled with wood not a Phenolic rod.

Hope this helps

 

[qbilder]

deleted.....

 

[skor]

Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering. It's pool cues, not rocket ships. K.I.S.S. Ask Barry or Lauri or Tony how many of their cues are cored with plastic? If you are going to successfully innovate, then you must at least reach par with then surpass the best in the field. Then you are in a position to innovate. It has nothing to do with heirarchy. It's all about knowledge. You can't count wood out as the best material until you have taken wood to it's limits, then PROVE something to accel past it. As of now, there's half a dozen premier builders & all use wood, not synthetics to core, if they core. Until you know what they know, you can't really know if anything is better.

I have to disagree with you here a bit...
What defines a cue or a cue maker better then the rest?
Or better yet how is it defined and by who?
Those handful of makers that you refer to build cues like they were thought years ago, they keep the tradition, it doesn't make it better....

We comprehend "better" based on what we are told to... "this is how a pool cue should be built and feel" but if you give someone who never played pool in his life and doesn't know how is Barry or Tony etc. to test and compare a cue with plastic inside or a traditional cue, you can not say for sure which cue will he like better!

I agree that "Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering" but if you do not try then you'll never know... this is how all great invention were created, a lot of them by mistake, other by trial and error.

You do not need to follow someone else foot step and reach their level to become "better" you can find your own path and get to greatness by yourself and maybe become a new pioneer.

Just my $0.02
I could be wrong, after all I'm not a cue builder (although you can reflect it to all aspects of life)

 

[manwon]

Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering. It's pool cues, not rocket ships. K.I.S.S. Ask Barry or Lauri or Tony how many of their cues are cored with plastic? If you are going to successfully innovate, then you must at least reach par with then surpass the best in the field. Then you are in a position to innovate. It has nothing to do with heirarchy. It's all about knowledge. You can't count wood out as the best material until you have taken wood to it's limits, then PROVE something to accel past it. As of now, there's half a dozen premier builders & all use wood, not synthetics to core, if they core. Until you know what they know, you can't really know if anything is better.

I can honestly say that I totally disagree with this entire post. I am not a believer that just because the top people in any field do things in a certain way that this is the only way to achieve success. I also do not believe that there is only one single way to achieve outstanding results. If this were true the greatest discoveries of all time would never have happened. The people who have made these discoveries were not on par with the best in their Field or trade. They were just individuals who used what God gave them ( a Brain ) and they used it according to their own perception of the results that would occur. People have always tried to find the next best Mouse trap and like in the past some one who doesn't stay between the lines of current thought will find it.

It's all about knowledge. You can't count wood out as the best material until you have taken wood to it's limits, then PROVE something to accel past it. As of now, there's half a dozen premier builders & all use wood, not synthetics to core, if they core. Until you know what they know, you can't really know if anything is better.[/QUOTE]

I agree it is all about knowledge, but to discount something because you can't comprehend it is certainly is not being knowledgeable. The only way to discount something to try it and see if it really works. If this is not done you really have no knowledge at all, and ultimately you become a mouth piece preaching the party line. I love this statement ( Until you know what they know, you can't really know if anything is better ) if you really believe this, you must be a follower and that is really ashame because I though you were much more than that.

Thanks for your reply, I understand where you are coming from, however, I do not agree with any of it.:smile:

 

[manwon]

I have to disagree with you here a bit...
What defines a cue or a cue maker better then the rest?
Or better yet how is it defined and by who?
Those handful of makers that you refer to build cues like they were thought years ago, they keep the tradition, it doesn't make it better....

We comprehend "better" based on what we are told to... "this is how a pool cue should be built and feel" but if you give someone who never played pool in his life and doesn't know how is Barry or Tony etc. to test and compare a cue with plastic inside or a traditional cue, you can not say for sure which cue will he like better!

I agree that "Innovation often finds itself retarded &/or even reversed by over engineering" but if you do not try then you'll never know... this is how all great invention were created, a lot of them by mistake, other by trial and error.

You do not need to follow someone else foot step and reach their level to become "better" you can find your own path and get to greatness by yourself and maybe become a new pioneer.

Just my $0.02
I could be wrong, after all I'm not a cue builder (although you can reflect it to all aspects of life)

I totally agree with you, where I come from you either Lead, Follow, or get the Flock out of the way. :smile:

Take care

 

[olsonsview]

opinions

Thank God there is diversity in methods & materials cuemakers use to build cues, and differing player opinions on what feel, balance, and weight constitutes the perfect hit. How boring would our craft be without it !

 

[skor]

Thank God there is diversity in methods & materials cuemakers use to build cues, and differing player opinions on what feel, balance, and weight constitutes the perfect hit. How boring would our craft be without it !

Do you mean like Snooker cues?

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Craig; I agree with what you say, but if you reread MY post you see that I said "FOR ME, I BELIEVE.." In otherwords this is only what I believe, not what I think everyone should do. The original poster asked about a SOLID ROD of phenolic, being used as a core material. I think your use of tubing is probably closer to what I believe, than using a solid rod...JER

 

[conetip]

The cue construction debate , core , nocore, etc will always be here. A bit like tennis rackets. People who grew up with gut strings and a laminated racket feel that is the best, but a new guy with a carbon racket will think it is the best. Both are correct. It is what you like the feel of.
The same with cue handle construction.
Coreing came about as a way of stableizing a handle without having it being a full splice.
For me, if the core is wood or phenolic or carbonfibre tube, as long as it is solidly connected should be no different.There will be a frequency change because of the materials used. If there is a cavity in the front part of the handle the cue will have a funny sound. But having a cavity at the back end of the cue does not seem to be detremental to the hit.
Alot of people like to emulate the feel of a 1 piece cue with the bonus of being able to break it down for transport.
I don't base my cues on the hit of a 1 piece wood cue, because I don't make wood cues.
My handles have a carbon fibre core and they have a very solid hit. Some like the solid feel , others don't care for it at all.The max diameter of the core is 3/4 inch and it runs the full length of the handle .
Diversity of construction is a great thing , and as a result of this the players now have a wide selection of playabilty in cue selection.
You can now choose a handle of your choice and get made the shaft of your choice, to make a combination that you the player like the best.
There has never been a time like now to get what you want in a cue.The choices are now so diverse it would take a long time to compare the different combinations that are available.
I think the reason for using phenolic or carbonfibre as a core is to force the stabilty of the handle over time , with the bonus of being able to weight and balace the handle more easily to the customer.
Neil

 

[qbilder]

deleted.....

 

[manwon]

Craig; I agree with what you say, but if you reread MY post you see that I said "FOR ME, I BELIEVE.." In otherwords this is only what I believe, not what I think everyone should do. The original poster asked about a SOLID ROD of phenolic, being used as a core material. I think your use of tubing is probably closer to what I believe, than using a solid rod...JER

Thanks very much for your reply Jer, and I certainly agree that by using tubing and filling it with wood that it would certainly be very close. But, the use of tubing as a coring material also will add a great deal of stability to the wood surrounding it. The phenolic will never warp or bend in any manner, and wood bonds to it very well. In addition, with a wood core going through the tube your connection screws, joint pin, and your weight bolt if you use one are all still into wood while being surrounded by phenolic. I have been doing this in my construction for two years, cues made this transmit hit very well, and they also increase the power out put of the hit.

Thanks again for your reply.

 

[manwon]

From a scientific point of view, it's simply impossible. You can argue it day in & day out but without proof, it's worthless. The only way to prove is to fully understand, quantify & compare. If you don't fully understand your subject to begin with, then you have no basis or foundation to expand from. Therefore, it's ignorance in written form to even try debating it. I am sorry if I offend anybody with that, but it's how I see it.

I have seen in this thread the greatest builders of our generation being dwindled down to mere traditionalist by a non-builder. As if to say they haven't made any improvements because they think & build the old way. I can't even begin to explain how utterly incorrect that is. Cut a Black Boar up the middle & explain very clearly to me how it was constructed in a traditional fashion. Then explain to me how Tony is stuck in old school & doesn't innovate. The man has the most technologically advanced shop in cuemaking, and fully understands how to use it & why. Better yet, cut a Barry Szamboti cue & point the subtle differences that make his cues simply better than 99.9% of all other builders. Only a knowledgeable & well experienced builder can do it. Everything else is speculative rambling. And no, there's no plastic cores.

My point was & is very simple. Until you understand wood to the highest degree, you cannot successfully improve on it. The greatest scientists in the world are'nt even near that level yet. So i'm pretty sure no cuemaker is, either. Face it, no matter how smart any of us try to convince people on a silly forum we are, none of us are the Einstein of our day. All I see is a whole bunch of BS with no legitimate foundation. I see nobody putting things into perspective & being real. So I guess i'll agree to disagree & call it quits on this subject. When I see the world raving about phenolic cored cues, i'll assume I was wrong & reconsider my view. Until then, i'll trust that the previous 200 years of cuemakers before me had a clue & i'll be happy with my "traditional" ideas.

]From a scientific point of view, it's simply impossible. You can argue it day in & day out but without proof, it's worthless.

If our scientists listen to people like you we would never have made it to the moon.

You have a single fatal flaw in your argument, you are under the impression that if you do not understand something or have never heard of something that it can't exist. You think that because you have had some success building cues that now you are above scrutiny and that when you speak the world listens . I am not taking anything away from your achievements, or from your work, to my knowledge it is very good. However, your condescending attitude and your lack of foresight will win you no friends, and in the end your success will not continue until you learn to think outside of the box. The day will come when you can progress no further do to your high and mighty attitude. Your self elevation on this pedestal that over looks the cue making World is going to be your down fall.

Just my thoughts, I mean you no disrespect, and I also wish you luck!!!!!:smile:

 

[JoeyInCali]

If our scientists listen to people like you we would never have made it to the moon.
Craig, can you scientifically explain a cue's hit?
Eric can probably list his favorite woods according to their harmonic properties.
But I really doubt he went to a chamber and measured each board's decibel/frequency rating after he dropped them a foot to granite slab.

 

[manwon]

If our scientists listen to people like you we would never have made it to the moon.
Craig, can you scientifically explain a cue's hit?
Eric can probably list his favorite woods according to their harmonic properties.
But I really doubt he went to a chamber and measured each board's decibel/frequency rating after he dropped them a foot to granite slab.

Joey, I think the air is way to thin on the cloud he is sitting on. There is no question that he is knowledgeable, and that he has earned and should be respected for his work. But, to discount something you have never tried or never had success with is very foolish. Joey just for your information a woods harmonic properties are dictated by much more than the type of wood that it is. So unless you measure each piece scientifically in some manner you are just pissing in the wind, and even that has a frequency!!!!!

Just my thoughts Joey!!!:smile:

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey, I think the air is way to thin on the cloud he is sitting on. There is no question that he is knowledgeable, and that he has earned and should be respected for his work. But, to discount something you have never tried or never had success with is very foolish. Joey just for your information a woods harmonic properties are dictated by much more than the type of wood that it is. So unless you measure each piece scientifically in some manner you are just pissing in the wind, and ever than has a frequency!!!!!

Just my thoughts Joey!!!:smile:

You think he hasn't bounced phenolic rods or cut them?
You think he has no inkling how vibration transmits down a phenolic rod?
Here's a cue I'm finishing.
I believe Hank Corsair's Black Beauty was the first phenolic tubed cue there was. I've seen Zeiler make two or three as well. His playing cue is a black beauty as well.
Imo the phenolic tube does not reasonate nearly as well as wood.
Does it mean it doesn't hit as well as wood?
Science can't explain that imo.

 

[manwon]

You think he hasn't bounced phenolic rods or cut them?
You think he has no inkling how vibration transmits down a phenolic rod?
Here's a cue I'm finishing.
I believe Hank Corsair's Black Beauty was the first phenolic tubed cue there was. I've seen Zeiler make two or three as well. His playing cue is a black beauty as well.
Imo the phenolic tube does not reasonate nearly as well as wood.
Does it mean it doesn't hit as well as wood?
Science can't explain that imo.

So then Joey what is more important hit or resonance to a Pool Player? In addition, phenolic is also much stronger than wood, and it bonds to wood very well. It doesn't move and since it is thermostatic it vibrates at more consistently with a repeatable resonance than wood is capable of do to it's Biological nature. Phenolic also is not effected by temperature change like wood, so when subjected to varying temperatures if will expand and contract little if at all.

In the end Pool Players are all we need, they are the deciding factor where a cues hit is concerned. When you see a cue makers cues constantly up for sale in a short period after purchase it certainly speaks Volumes about what a player thinks. However, when the same cue is sold over and over again and many people have tried the cue with the same result little doubt is left about that cue. But when you repeatedly see the same thing over and over again, cue after cue, I suspect that something is wrong with a cues hit.

It is kinda what we see on the forum isn't it, now all these poeple selling certain cue makers cues can't really need the money, especially if it is like they say, the best hitting cue they have ver owned!!!!!

Just my thoughts