Corey's done it again, this time with 8b.

BullBuchanan said:
Then standardize the rack and quit crying. This whole conspiracy stuff is BS. Who's to say it wasn't just his way of doing it?
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After commenting about how cunning and skillful he is, now you're denying it's intentional? :rolleyes:

Anyway, attacking the rule because you don't agree with it is a different discussion. But if someone is breaking the rules I dispute that it is "crying" to call it. TBH, defending the breaking of a rule because you don't like it sounds more like whining to me. If you don't like it, quit lamenting about it and try to get it changed.
 
It's easy to rack a perfectly symmetrical rack for 8-ball.

Sol
Str - sol
sol - 8 -str
str - sol - str - sol
sol - str - str - sol - str

Rack them up and you'll see that the right and left sides of the rack are identical. Once you've got the pattern, it only takes a few extra seconds to rack compared to random.
 
I used this rack last night. lol.. The monkey's were like " All your balls are in the pockets.." or " You got a good break".

It was FUNNY!!!
 
bdorman said:
It's easy to rack a perfectly symmetrical rack for 8-ball.

Sol
Str - sol
sol - 8 -str
str - sol - str - sol
sol - str - str - sol - str

Rack them up and you'll see that the right and left sides of the rack are identical. Once you've got the pattern, it only takes a few extra seconds to rack compared to random.
Click to expand...

So...your theory to combat pattern racking is to require pattern racking?
 
fERrELZ said:
So...your theory to combat pattern racking is to require pattern racking?
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Sure, if that's the only viable solution to the problem. Why not?

We already require the 8-ball in the middle and a solid and a stripe in the opposite corners. Isn't that a pattern?

If all players were angels it wouldn't be a problem. Society has rules because we're not angels.
 
In the final Ken made sure both guys had to keep it as alternated as tehy could. Appleton some of the best 8 ball i have ever seen in his matches against woodward butler and tournageua even corey in teh fierst set of finla. Corey got little lucky but well done.
 
If you rack for me, I have no problem with it. I will inspect the rack and break accordingly.

It's why I bought "Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets". To learn and gain an advantage.

I play in one league where it's "rack your own" and inspection is encouraged. I also play in a league where the opponent racks and inspection is legal, but not encouraged. So, I get my fill of both.

I rarely ever break hard. I just don't have the sheer strength or technique to do so, but I generally end up making more than my share of balls on the break by watching what's happening and adjusting to the conditions.

You're going to have arguments from either side of coin. One way encourages study and learning. The other wants complete randomness and is critical of those who use forward thinking.

I know where I stand.
 
Cheating is a strong word, but I dunno what else to call it when players knowingly break rules.
Maybe that's the key word, "knowingly". It could be that Corey was unaware it's prohibited in the rules,
or he thought the wording of the rule allowed him to use a pattern as long as it's not literally
the exact same balls in the same slots each time.

If he did it without knowing the exact rule, I wouldn't use the word "cheating".

"But how can you spot pattern racking easily? It's too much work to spot it."
"But how can you prove something is truly random? It's impossible."
"But how can a ref or opponent enforce it?"

All of these are easily fixed with a very simple policy (or rule change):

To rack, you grab all the balls out of the hopper and wedge them against the bottom rail
with your arms to form a triangle. We've seen players do this when preparing the balls
to fit inside a standard triangle.

Once the balls are "wedged" you may only swap 2 balls:
1. Put the 8 in the center
2. You may swap either corner ball, IF they're the same group.

That's it. These are the only 2 balls a player may swap.
Boom, no more pattern racking.
It's easy to spot already, players should not be swapping around any other balls.
Corey's opponent could easily see he was picking & choosing which balls to put onto the magic rack.

So simply specify in the rules: no moving those other balls. Just the 8b, and a corner ball.
Once you have the 'wedge' set, you must place them onto a magic rack exactly as they sit in the wedge.
 
CreeDo said:
All of these are easily fixed with a very simple policy (or rule change):

To rack, you grab all the balls out of the hopper and wedge them against the bottom rail
with your arms to form a triangle. We've seen players do this when preparing the balls
to fit inside a standard triangle.

Once the balls are "wedged" you may only swap 2 balls:
1. Put the 8 in the center
2. You may swap either corner ball, IF they're the same group.

That's it. These are the only 2 balls a player may swap.
Boom, no more pattern racking.
It's easy to spot already, players should not be swapping around any other balls.
Corey's opponent could easily see he was picking & choosing which balls to put onto the magic rack.

So simply specify in the rules: no moving those other balls. Just the 8b, and a corner ball.
Once you have the 'wedge' set, you must place them onto a magic rack exactly as they sit in the wedge.
Click to expand...

This is the best way I've seen/heard yet. Easy to spot if people are cheating & doesn't take a ref/independent party to rack.

Brilliant!
 
Thread read

I read this thread prior to watching final matches and did not see this going on at that point, but I also noticed something earlier in the tournament's rounds.

You put together an excellent case and point.

In fact in the finals there were a few racks that the tournament director made comments on and had the player rearrange it. Maybe they read your thread :grin:

I also do not think Corey was anywhere alone in this, he just might of been the most prolific.
 
fathomblue said:
If you rack for me, I have no problem with it. I will inspect the rack and break accordingly.

It's why I bought "Joe Tucker's Racking Secrets". To learn and gain an advantage.

I play in one league where it's "rack your own" and inspection is encouraged. I also play in a league where the opponent racks and inspection is legal, but not encouraged. So, I get my fill of both.

I rarely ever break hard. I just don't have the sheer strength or technique to do so, but I generally end up making more than my share of balls on the break by watching what's happening and adjusting to the conditions.

You're going to have arguments from either side of coin. One way encourages study and learning. The other wants complete randomness and is critical of those who use forward thinking.

I know where I stand.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you stand. Are you simply against the rule or are you in favor of players violating the rule because you don't think it's a good one? Big difference.

I have no problem with Joe Tuckers Racking Secrets. Fact is it is a must know piece of information. But there is a difference between using that information to read a rack that was fairly given to you for a possible advantage versus pattern racking or purposely racking strategic gaps. One is creative & forward thinking and the other one is cunning and dishonest.

Creative and forward thinking:

Experimenting with all kinds of possible racking patterns and learning how to use them to your advantage so when you encounter one in a legally assembled rack you can use that knowledge to your advantage.

Cunning and dishonest:

Experimenting with all kinds of possible racking patterns and learning how to use them to your advantage, then deliberately racking in specific patterns to your advantage.

I'm with Creedo on this though. I didn't see Corey play and am not accusing him of anything. This is about the more general topic that developed from the discussion. :thumbup:
 
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I am not going to highjack this thread. I will post once. There is only one problem. It is the ball on the break. Get rid of it and everthing is fixed. The slopped ball and the wired ball (trick shot) should mean nothing. A good break is controling the cue ball (and the 1-ball in rotation games) and getting a good spread. That is good enough.

No Conflict Rules
 
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Change of heart

I was never against pattern racking but after doing this last night on my home 8' table I'm against this. I did this for about an hour or so and actually changed it a little (All same except bottom row went: strip/solid/stripe/solid/solid for shooting solids) because I was having problem with the bottom left (as you face from break) stripe getting in my way of the ball inside it.

It is nearly fail proof to make a ball and totally screw the other set and have a pretty darn easy runout. It honestly didn't even feel like pool, just practicing by myself it made me feel like I was cheating somehow. Now, I'm not on the side of people who say this is cheating as I think there's some middle ground between "Legal and OK" to "You're a Cheater!"

I'm no pro or even close but I wouldn't use this is a competitive arena as it just doesn't feel right. But I'm not attempting to pay bills playing pool so...People will look for an edge that is borderline illegal.
 
Paul Schofield said:
I am not going to highjack this thread. I will post once. There is only one problem. It is the ball on the break. Get rid of it and everthing is fixed. The slopped ball and the wired ball (trick shot) should mean nothing. A good break is controling the cue ball (and the 1-ball in rotation games) and getting a good spread. That is good enough.

No Conflict Rules
Click to expand...

How does that get rid of the problem, Paul? Seems to me it would only make it more rampant. If the shooter doesn't have to worry about making a ball to keep the table, he is far more motivated to rack a pattern that will leave an easy out for one group while creating problem clusters for his opponent. The strategy doesn't backfire on him when he breaks dry. :confused:

-----

JoJo, good post and neat experiment. :thumbup: But there is nothing borderline about pattern racking. It is clearly illegal, period. And your experiment demonstrates the reason why.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
How does that get rid of the problem, Paul? Seems to me it would only make it more rampant. If the shooter doesn't have to worry about making a ball to keep the table, he is far more motivated to rack a pattern that will leave an easy out for one group while creating problem clusters for his opponent. The strategy doesn't backfire on him when he breaks dry. :confused:
Click to expand...

You need to read all the no-conflict rules. Part of them specify a simple process for random racking.
 
krupa said:
You need to read all the no-conflict rules. Part of them specify a simple process for random racking.
Click to expand...

I understand that, but you need to reread Paul's post. He never mentioned his routine for spinning the balls around before racking them was the solution. What he said was, "There is only one problem. It is the ball on the break. Get rid of it and everthing is fixed." :thumbup:

What I'm saying is I don't see it. Eliminating the need to make a ball on the break will only make the situation worse because players are certain to get first crack at the easier group. No risk of breaking dry and having it backfire on you.

As far as spinning the balls around, throw that into the pile with the other solutions offered here like the bucket rack, scooping the balls into a triangle on the foot rail with your arms, opponent rack, neutral rack, template rack, designated pattern, require apex ball hit, etal.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
I understand that, but you need to reread Paul's post. He never mentioned his routine for spinning the balls around before racking them was the solution. What he said was, "There is only one problem. It is the ball on the break. Get rid of it and everthing is fixed." :thumbup:

What I'm saying is I don't see it.
Click to expand...

True. I didn't pick up on that the first time I read it.
 
krupa said:
True. I didn't pick up on that the first time I read it.
Click to expand...

While the ball on the break thing doesn't solve anything in 8 Ball ( Plus I think there should be some measure of earning group choice), the spinning balls thing is worthy of going in the pile with the other ideas along with this amended version of it:

Let the racker rack any way he chooses, but then the opponent chooses how to orient the rack i.e. which corner ball goes on the spot. Assuming the 8 is no longer in the middle simply switch it with the middle ball.
 
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