How did we not all end up with one of these in our stockings that Christmas??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTymwn-_U8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTymwn-_U8
Corey's done it again, this time with 8b.
- Thread starter CreeDo
- Start date
I do the same thing. This is one pattern I use that gets a pretty even spread on the balls, assuming I don't $#!7 the bed on the break shot
that is the pattern that is used for English black ball........ they use orange and yellow balls and a black ball.............. it gives a good spread
they also rack the black ball on the spot not the head ball
Kim
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That has already been invented. There was a series of articles in Billiards Digest recently that discussed the evolution of the rack. A relatively recent patent was for a mechanized auto-racker.
No question it's against the rules, I suspect most players don't realize it's a violation.
Certainly several people in this thread didn't realize it is.
I agree it does suck if Corey used it to help him win the early rounds,
only to have it disallowed later.
But I can't help feeling like there were 8 chances for people to be aware of the rule, and complain...
and all 8 people failed to do that. It's understandable why Corey would try it,
if nobody is going to call him on it.
Certainly several people in this thread didn't realize it is.
I agree it does suck if Corey used it to help him win the early rounds,
only to have it disallowed later.
But I can't help feeling like there were 8 chances for people to be aware of the rule, and complain...
and all 8 people failed to do that. It's understandable why Corey would try it,
if nobody is going to call him on it.
It's probably a bad rule because it's so hard to tell (or prove) that someone is doing it. How do you really know if something is random? For any given rack, it's pretty easy to look like you're just throwing the balls down in any order. And the opponent would have to keep track of the ball positions rack by rack to see the pattern, which could be hard if you don't know what to look for.
Justin,
What do YOU define as cheating? The BCAPL and WPA rule books have evolved over the years in an attempt to cover virtually every situation that might come up. Intentionally circumventing the rules is cheating plain and simple. Whether it's Corey or myself.
As far as NASCAR is concerned, every car must pass the mustard at inspection. If you go way too fast on a track where down force is required, someone is going to look closer. One thirty second inch in spoiler height is a dramatic change in drag and down force. The days of running out of fuel on the cool off lap and then driving away from victory circle are long gone! Only problem in my view is NASCAR won't take a win away from a driver. Only fining and suspending people.
Lyn
This comes under the "snooze you lose" rule. If you are not watching what your opponent is doing, you're just as much to blame. One reason I like to play in Paul Schofield's events. Don't care what my opponent does. He's going to get the first shot at the rack regardless. Unless he scratches on the break that is!
Lyn
If it's illegal it shouldn't be allowed. But I love Deuel for figuring this out. It's like the wiley old veteran in any other sport who isn't as talented (not that he's not talented but just not the same as say SVB) and figures out a way to stay competitive.
I love watching Deuel on the barbox 8ball tho. He's always been a monster.
Just my $.02. And ya get what ya pay for.
I love watching Deuel on the barbox 8ball tho. He's always been a monster.
Just my $.02. And ya get what ya pay for.
I agree, but two points:
1. This particular rule has the additional problem of requiring that something be random, which is unprovable.
2. I don't like the norm in pool that you can cheat as long as your opponent doesn't see it. I wish the standard was to call fouls on yourself and don't be a cheater. I know that what you say is right, but I just don't like that it's right. :wink:
Calling fouls on yourself
Check out the rules for American Rotation at americanbilliardclub.com
Regards,
Don Owen
Check out the rules for American Rotation at americanbilliardclub.com
Regards,
Don Owen
BullBuchanan
Registered
This whole thing is silly. If the guy figured out an order to put the balls in, that combined with a certain break, it's complete skill & cunning that causes him to win. Say what you will, but to call it "cheating" is ludicrous.
Putting aside that fact that true random doesn't exist (random number generators are not random) There is absolutely no way to "randomly" place 14 balls into a rack. Would you leave all solids in the front and all stripes in the back if they fell that way into the rack? Likely not. Most people have a sense of what looks even, and that's their given rack.
I rack every single rack of 8 ball the same (the opposite of the pictures attached above), not because I've found that it works better than anything else, but because it's become habit and I tell myself it allows for an even break. Just because someone knows how that given rack will break apart doesn't make them a cheater, it just makes them smarter than you - kind of like card counters.
If people really wanted to solve this problem, they'd standardize how the balls are to be racked, and learning how to beat the rack would be a formally instructed part of the game,
Putting aside that fact that true random doesn't exist (random number generators are not random) There is absolutely no way to "randomly" place 14 balls into a rack. Would you leave all solids in the front and all stripes in the back if they fell that way into the rack? Likely not. Most people have a sense of what looks even, and that's their given rack.
I rack every single rack of 8 ball the same (the opposite of the pictures attached above), not because I've found that it works better than anything else, but because it's become habit and I tell myself it allows for an even break. Just because someone knows how that given rack will break apart doesn't make them a cheater, it just makes them smarter than you - kind of like card counters.
If people really wanted to solve this problem, they'd standardize how the balls are to be racked, and learning how to beat the rack would be a formally instructed part of the game,
Please explain how you can know the rule and make this statement.
Forget the "nothing is truly random" nonsense, the rule is there to prevent a player from taking unfair advantage. We all know this and saying anything else is just a diversion.
Now, what would be complete skill and cunning would be if Corey worked and practiced to figure out the best speed/location to hit the rack/kitchen placement of the CB to get the results he wanted from a randomly racked stack. If he was that good at reading a rack and knowing what to do with it then I'd be the first to say more power to him.
But to figure out and use a particular pattern to get these results is simply a violation of the rules. The fact that professionals seem to allow each other to do this doesn't make it any less so, and in fact only makes it worse.
You don't have to tell me much of anything about NASCAR. I graduated from a high performance engine building school that places people on Cup teams.
We regularly discussed inner, technical goings-on of the sport. We also had access to recently obsolete Cup technology at any given time, as the school's owner was a former Winston Cup driver/engine builder and had TONS of contacts (remember, he was placing folks on teams, who eventually moved up to engineering).
It was shocking to see what teams would do to gain an advantage. Sure, some of it was plain illegal. But, many things were simply a shining example of ingenuity and creativity. Things that are frowned upon, simply because it allows someone to separate themselves from the pack. It wasn't spelled out in the rulebook. It didn't go against any safety concern, except to make a car go around the track faster......which is the root of the sport.
Our big concern at the school was that Cup was going to do away with engine crews altogether and simply force every team to buy a NASCAR-built crate engine. Everyone would have the same amount of power. At that point, just build them go-karts, stick the drivers in and drink a beer while they putt around the track.
That and the economy are exactly why I chose not to pursue that career. I want to be rewarded for critical thinking. Not punished.
Not allowing a player to rack however they like is ridiculous. I do understand the opposing argument, however. It's really not fair to compare pool to any other sport, but what if golf allowed your opponent to insert your tee into the ground for you? You'd probably get players jamming it all the way into the ground, so you couldn't get underneath the ball. Or, barely getting the tip of the tee in, so that it might fall over at any time.
I think the rule against pattern racking is simply a bad rule. In sports, when something is darn near impossible to keep track of, and financially not worth hiring a judge for.....it's a rule that is begging to be stretched or circumnavigated.
Why not just get rid of the rule and say, "There. Now go figure out how to make it work for you. Get creative."
No 2 players really break the same. Some are comfortable breaking from certain areas or using certain speeds. It would allow players to tailor the break to THEIR game.
What an amazing coincidence, that is the world standardised placement for blackball also:
I've been racking eight ball this way for over 50 years. Except for the eight on the foot spot bit. They must have got it from me. There's always going to be two balls of the same suit together at the bottom row.
BullBuchanan
Registered
Then standardize the rack and quit crying. This whole conspiracy stuff is BS. Who's to say it wasn't just his way of doing it?
Don,
Sad to see you're not going to SBE. Was looking forward to another great battle. Guess I'll see you in Vegas in July. Assume you're going to defend your championship?
Lyn
Agree that a random rack will almost never be completely random. If you're paying attention, you can at least question the ball locations. Most players will re-rack once they know your watching.
Mike Zuglan requests each player call fouls on themselves during a Joss 9 Ball event. Those that fail to and are caught are asked to leave and not return. I don't like "snooze you lose" either. In the nearly sixty years I've been playing, I've been reminded of that rule too many times. I want to trust the best in people. I've just been proven wrong too many times. Remember one time in particular a player "sharked" me so bad some of the spectators booed him. Saw him leaving the event and his license plate frame read "pool players for Jesus" Wonder which church he attended on Sundays? Takes all kinds I guess.
Lyn
There is also a negative to this whole discussion. How about when I rack for you? What if I learned to rack so you were almost guaranteed NOT to make a ball on the break? Should I be rewarded for that as well? My guess is everybody rack the balls for eight ball the same way. Not necessarily the same numbers but the same pattern every rack. Our league used to call the English Black Ball rack the "J" rack. Everyone had to use it. If Corey (and others) can figure out how to use it better than me, more power to them!
Lyn
I have an accu-stats of the US Open 9-ball. I don't remember who was playing so I won't guess and name names that shouldn't be named. BUT... I remember at one point the TD had been called over for some reason and he happened to noticed that the person racking was consistently putting certain balls in certain places. The comment made by the TD was "just throw them in there and put the 9 in the center."
Why is that so hard? If you don't put any effort into rearranging the balls (besides to meet the rule requirements of 8 in the center), it is random. You don't need a mathematician to prove it.
Just throw the balls in, put the 8 in the center, a solid and stripe at each corner and you're done. It's not hard to do and it's not impossible to enforce. If your opponent is swapping more than 3 balls, he's probably creating a pattern.
Why is that so hard? If you don't put any effort into rearranging the balls (besides to meet the rule requirements of 8 in the center), it is random. You don't need a mathematician to prove it.
Just throw the balls in, put the 8 in the center, a solid and stripe at each corner and you're done. It's not hard to do and it's not impossible to enforce. If your opponent is swapping more than 3 balls, he's probably creating a pattern.
I am all for an equal playing field. Let us fight fair.