Coring a cue?

[JesPiddlin]

I think mutual respect would have involved more respect towards another cuebuilder and had this said in a PM rather than dress him down in full view of the 'prospective customers' that do view this forum
Just MHO

...No need to run someone down in front of the world over personal opinions. A question was asked for opinions, and they were given, then it is for the customer to decide what path they follow. In the words of my grandfather, 'opinions are like a$$h@les, everybody has them, and they all stink!'
Just my 2.5 cents
Dave

I agree. To me, it also looked as if one was intentionally knocking the other down in front of the world and it was definitely not necessary to keep going over and over and over it, like he did. Fortunately, most folks know that bullying with that kind of push and shove attitude is not worth paying attention to.

I only saw some cuemaker's opinions, which is what the original post asked for. Nobody ever said all cuemakers have to agree on everything. In fact, I'm glad they don't, because the variety of the cues on the market would be quite slim, in my opinion.

 

[dave sutton]

I agree. To me, it also looked as if one was intentionally knocking the other down in front of the world and it was definitely not necessary to keep going over and over and over it, like he did. Fortunately, most folks know that bullying with that kind of push and shove attitude is not worth paying attention to.

I only saw some cuemaker's opinions, which is what the original post asked for. Nobody ever said all cuemakers have to agree on everything. In fact, I'm glad they don't, because the variety of the cues on the market would be quite slim, in my opinion.

i also agree. it seems like thats how he is. his name is TELLS IT LIKE IT IS...
he dont pull no punches

not that i agree with him but being brutally honest isnt always a bad thing.

 

[dave sutton]

Who's upset?
And what makes you think it's weaker? I might agree if you didn't use glue, and simply pressed a core in... but the glue should actually make it STRONGER, not weaker. Last time I checked, laminated wood is almost always more stable, and stronger than non-laminated.

i think it is weaker than a solid piece of wood also

another thing i think is weak and i will never build a cue this way id a sleeved ivory joint over phenolic.

ivory is grainy and brittle and that this is just asking for trouble. solid ivory or nothing to me

 

[RocketQ]

I don't want to be the one that states the obvious but...
Isn't this forum a place for makers and buyers to converse pick each others brains and educate the consumer? If you look at the way that people buy things any more it is all marketing not because it is a good product. If it says it is good on tv or the internet then it must be good.
This forum is a great place to educate the consumer. What it comes down to..... OK rant...
Core or not...
I currently don't core anything. I have ordered the drills and have the lathe to do the work but IMO alot of the woods I work with I don't think I want to core just because it will change the way that particular wood plays and feels. Soft stuff like zebra and makore I will probably try to core with something like bubinga or cocobolo. I don't think I wil; use maple to core anything. There are other woods that have better properties IMO. I don't know if this helps the discussion or not but my .02 $.

 

[cueman]

In one of the above posts I stated that I core almost all of my cues, even Maple ones. Some time ago, not in this thread but another, I stated why I core my cues which was to make them play similar, along with the other reasons of weight control and stability. I don't feel there are any drawbacks to coring if done correctly. If the core is not properly glued to the prong properly then there could be trouble there. Someone said that they cut a number of cues apart after coring to see how it worked. I did the same thing when first starting so that I could see if there was any glue starvation anywhere in the fore arm. I've got my technique down now so that I know all parts are glued properly. I, and I believe most who core the prongs use West System. I bought Gorilla glue at a Wood show in 1996. I tried it on a few things and never liked it's foaming action as it reminded me of the foam sealer for walls and such. I knew it wood make a for a dead feel in a cue and haven't had any since.

Dick

I would be curious if your statement about most using West System is true. I think in a earlier thread most responded that they use polyurethane glues like Gorilla Glue. Also you still say there are "No drawbacks to coring" when done correctly. Does this mean you core ebony with ebony to make ebony hit like ebony and you core cocobolo with cocobolo to keep the tonal qualities of cocobolo? To some having a ebony cue that plays like maple is not a plus, but is a drawback. As stated before I am a member of the coring community, but only use it when I think it is the right time to use it and not always. The reason I don't use it always is I do see some drawbacks in certain situations, but I also see it's great advantages in other situations and use it then. I approach each cue and try to build it the best way I think it can be built, and coring sometimes fits into that plan. But that is just the way I do things, not the only way, or even the absolute right way, but it is still my way at this time. I am still learning so who knows what I will write in the fourth edition of my book in a few years.

 

[Sheldon]

i think it is weaker than a solid piece of wood also

What do you base that opinion on? Anyone can make a statement, backing it up is what separates fantasy from reality.
I use Epoxy, and so do others who I know that core their cues.

 

[masonh]

after a piece of wood is cored and in the coring process and gluing process i think it is more prone to developing cracks.but after it is glued to the core i think it is at least as strong and maybe stronger.the West system is incredibly strong epoxy.i guess that considering the piece will be glued over a core directly after it is cored than it really doesn't matter how strong it is uncored.i also have to agree with Dave,some of those posts above were as little out of line and uncalled for.

 

[rhncue]

I would be curious if your statement about most using West System is true. I think in a earlier thread most responded that they use polyurethane glues like Gorilla Glue. Also you still say there are "No drawbacks to coring" when done correctly. Does this mean you core ebony with ebony to make ebony hit like ebony and you core cocobolo with cocobolo to keep the tonal qualities of cocobolo? To some having a ebony cue that plays like maple is not a plus, but is a drawback. As stated before I am a member of the coring community, but only use it when I think it is the right time to use it and not always. The reason I don't use it always is I do see some drawbacks in certain situations, but I also see it's great advantages in other situations and use it then. I approach each cue and try to build it the best way I think it can be built, and coring sometimes fits into that plan. But that is just the way I do things, not the only way, or even the absolute right way, but it is still my way at this time. I am still learning so who knows what I will write in the fourth edition of my book in a few years.

I feel that straight grain Maple or Purple Heart or Bocota makes a good hitting cue. It is for this reason that I core my cues with it. Many of my customers have played with my cues before or have heard of how they play. Coring helps in trying to maintain this feel. If you consider that a downside to coring then so be it, it is. Since discovering coring, I have become one of it's greatest proponents. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that it is the way to build a stable cue. Wish it wasn't as it adds a lot of time and some expense to building a cue. Others may feel differently which of coarse is fine with me.
To answer your question of if I core Ebony with Ebony or Coco with Coco then of coarse my answer is absolutely not. The reasons for coring is to 1. help maintain a desired hit. 2. to alleviate or maybe add some weight. and 3. to maintain the integrity of the cue. I don't want to use an unstable wood to stabilize another unstable wood. I try to build a cue that someones grand kids can play with. If a person just wants a cue to last 5 or 10 years then a Players or Cobra should considered as they can be had at a much more friendly price.
I have built cues using solid Coco and Ebony in the past but not since I started coring. I build completely custom cues. The purchaser designs the cue and I build. I let them know what I feel is the best way to build a cue as far as structural integrity goes. The hit of a cue is a very important aspect and needs to be taken into consideration when building a cue. I understand this so If someone still wants a Cocobolo cue uncored then I will build it with the understanding that I don't feel the cue would be as structurally sound as it could be and there would be no Guarantee if the prong moves at a later date.

You can have the last comments, I'm done.

Dick

 

[Koop]

Maybe it's just me but I really like this thread. Good information from all sides.

I have been told that another advantage to coring is that it gives the cuemaker the ability to replicate the feel and hit of their cues based on whatever they are using as a coring material. To me that's a GREAT thing, especially if you find a maker whos cue you love the hit of and want one just like it.

 

[masonh]

i read that above also,but i really dount there is any way to replicate a cues hit.Maple cored with Maple will hit differently that Ebony coed with Maple.also you have many different grades of Maple cores.i have seen some cores with 5-10 rpi and some with 30+rpi.believe me these will hit differently.i guess the guy above could have a standard of all Mpale dowell cues,but they will not always hit the same.

 

[JoeyInCali]

i read that above also,but i really dount there is any way to replicate a cues hit.Maple cored with Maple will hit differently that Ebony coed with Maple.also you have many different grades of Maple cores.i have seen some cores with 5-10 rpi and some with 30+rpi.believe me these will hit differently.i guess the guy above could have a standard of all Mpale dowell cues,but they will not always hit the same.

True dat.
Once I don't get are bocote or purpleheart fronts cored with reject shaft maple. Two stable woods, famous for their hit and density. If they are too heavy, use a titanium or alum or G10 pin.
I think just like almost everything else, there are pros and cons to some construction type in qmaking.
Joey~Wishes all woods were as stable as purpleheart, as pretty as cocobolo and as safe as rock maple~
I own two gun drills. .758 and .883 btw. Sheldon told me what to get. Now if he can only send me one lathe.

 

[QMAKER]

Coring A Cue--continued

To whom it may concern:

Well, after two days of this b/s I think I will get this off my chest.

First off, I core ALL my cues and tell the customer up front that they will have a full length core of either purple heart, laminated maple, shaft wood maple or a bocote. In fact I state that in the first page of my web site. I kind of resent the implication that us cue makers, who core, are being devious and hiding something.

Secondly, the only drawback to coring is that it costs the cue maker more money for materials and a heck of a lot more time. Just try making a perfectly straight .750" core shaft 29" long.

Thirdly, a cored cue (properly constructed) is stronger than a solid built cue. You should be able to figure that out on your own, however, I will point out one area in particular. The "A" joint. A one piece cored cue has no "A" joint and all its related problems.

If you want to see how a one piece core is made go to www.denalicues.com/page 8, 9 and 10.

Just because one does not have the equipment, or the talent, to make a cored cue is not an excuse to bash those of us that do. You might remember the words of the old timer, "the only things REALLY worth knowing is those things you learn after you THINK you already know it all".

Bob Flynn
Denali pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

 

[JoeyInCali]

I kind of resent the implication that us cue makers, who core, are being devious and hiding something.


Who implied that?

 

[cueman]

To whom it may concern:

Well, after two days of this b/s I think I will get this off my chest.

First off, I core ALL my cues and tell the customer up front that they will have a full length core of either purple heart, laminated maple, shaft wood maple or a bocote. In fact I state that in the first page of my web site. I kind of resent the implication that us cue makers, who core, are being devious and hiding something.

Secondly, the only drawback to coring is that it costs the cue maker more money for materials and a heck of a lot more time. Just try making a perfectly straight .750" core shaft 29" long.

Thirdly, a cored cue (properly constructed) is stronger than a solid built cue. You should be able to figure that out on your own, however, I will point out one area in particular. The "A" joint. A one piece cored cue has no "A" joint and all its related problems.

If you want to see how a one piece core is made go to www.denalicues.com/page 8, 9 and 10.

Just because one does not have the equipment, or the talent, to make a cored cue is not an excuse to bash those of us that do. You might remember the words of the old timer, "the only things REALLY worth knowing is those things you learn after you THINK you already know it all".

Bob Flynn
Denali pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

Most people on here have less experience with full length cores than you do. I was not sure how this would hit and with the one I did being a Ivory handle I am still not sure. What I did was step the 30 inch piece from .925", for the handle and turned it all the way to the joint that size. Then sleeved the first piece of ivory on. I left the back part where the butt sleeve one inch to turn down later to .750" for the ebony butt sleeve and ring work. Then I turned it down to .850" installed another ivory handle sleeve, then turned it down to .775" for the next sleeve. Then I turned the front to .640" and put the ebony forearm over that. All that took forever it seemed, but made a Ivory handled cue less than 21 ounce. How would you describe the hit of the cored all the way through cues compared to those with A-Joints in them? The other types of coring is mostly for weight and stability, but yours has the potential for the greatest change in the hit. Not knocking anything here, just curious what the benefits are concerning the hit.

 

[Dave38]

To whom it may concern:

Well, after two days of this b/s I think I will get this off my chest.

First off, I core ALL my cues and tell the customer up front that they will have a full length core of either purple heart, laminated maple, shaft wood maple or a bocote. In fact I state that in the first page of my web site. I kind of resent the implication that us cue makers, who core, are being devious and hiding something.

Secondly, the only drawback to coring is that it costs the cue maker more money for materials and a heck of a lot more time. Just try making a perfectly straight .750" core shaft 29" long.

Thirdly, a cored cue (properly constructed) is stronger than a solid built cue. You should be able to figure that out on your own, however, I will point out one area in particular. The "A" joint. A one piece cored cue has no "A" joint and all its related problems.

If you want to see how a one piece core is made go to www.denalicues.com/page 8, 9 and 10.

Just because one does not have the equipment, or the talent, to make a cored cue is not an excuse to bash those of us that do. You might remember the words of the old timer, "the only things REALLY worth knowing is those things you learn after you THINK you already know it all".

Bob Flynn
Denali pool Cues
www.denalicues.com

One thinkest, one is to full of thy self.....

No one has implied that the corer's are hiding, or devious, etc. You guys are acting as if this is a personal attack. please take a step off of the high horse for a minute and please reread all the posts on this thread, and stop bashing the other cuemakers for their opinions, please. If you want your opinion to be respected for exactly that, your opinion, then please be alittle more respectful of the other cue builder's opinions.
I'm sure you make a great cue, Bob, otherwise you wouldn't be in business, but so don't the others. Everyone has different ways, that's why there are different methods, and so many demands for all of the cuemakers out there. ALL that Chris has tried to point out is that in his mind, and other peoples, there are some cons to be considered and relayed to the customer, who has to make the decision. He hasn't been disrespectful, as some others have been to him, and he isn't putting the practice down, only saying that he fells there are some down sides. All of the corers are basically saying there isn't any drawbacks. Sorry, thats not realistic. Nothing in this life is without drawbacks, or downsides, Otherwise, one result would be all production cue companies, and big name ones, would be doing it all that way and all of us would be left in the dust! Cuetek, preditor and all of the other big name companies wouldn't spend tens of thousands of dollars on research to build warp resistant, or great hitting cue technics, if all it took was a simple coring of the woods involved. Everything in life has trade-offs, or limitations, why is it so hard for people to admit it, stop acting like 16 yr olds, and go on with life.
Dave

 

[masonh]

Well said again Dave.i never read anything about devious cuemakers who sneakily core cues.i think cueman has been very diplomatic throughout the entire thread.i am pretty sure Chris does have the equiptment to make cored cues and i never saw him bash cuemakers that core.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Do any of you guys who are upset with me for pointing out a what I see as a weakness in cored cues know of any downsides to coring or is coring all 100% positive?
If it is 100% positive then do you suggest coring 100% of our cues?
With a .750" core the wall thickness is less than 1/16 of an inch behind the joint. Please explain how this makes that area less likely to crack than if it was solid or even equally unlikely?
Help me to understand the physics.
Or do I just live with the assumption that even though it is weaker it is still strong enough and does not need to be a concern?
By the way I have cored some cues.

Ill answer your questions as best I can.
If there is a particular downside to coring I would really like to know what it is. I can say for certain cracking is not one of
them though.

Even if it was 100% positive I still would not core every cue I made cause it isnt always needed. Thats only my opinion though. Ive said it
before and Ill say it again. Coring should be done for a particular reason not just because it can be. Some of the reasons
could be weight reduction. To increase the weight. Control balance. Strength. Stability. It could also be a combination of those.

A .750 core may or may not have a wall thickness of less than 1/16. That would depend on the joint size. How well
a .750 core works is a question youll have to ask someone else I dont use them. I can only speak from my personal experience
and from what I find works.

When you say it is weaker where is your infomation coming from? Is it from personal experience or is it from what you
have been told? Bonding two pieces of wood together is akin to welding two pieces of metal together. Instead of using
a welding rod or wire though were talking about epoxy as a joining agent. I know from personal experience a cored cue is
definitley not weaker. If anything it is stronger. That is science and is not limited to personal experience or opinion. Think plywood.

Coring ebony or cobobolo will change the hit from what the parent wood by itself would deliver. That we agree on. That isnt
a positive or a negative. It is what it is. Its allowing the hit of a certain wood to be changed just as you would attempt to change
the hit of a cue by using a different tip or ferrule. Everybody doesnt like the hit of ebony or cocobolo. Some like a little softer or
less tonal hit.

Believe it or not Im trying very hard to be objective and understand or be made aware of any downsides there may be in coring.
So far though I havent read any that can be shown to be fact.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

I kind of resent the implication that us cue makers, who core, are being devious and hiding something.


Who implied that?

But to say there are no negatives is not honest.

Could this be it?
That comment jerked my chain even though I didn't comment on it. Nobody has claimed there are no negatives. A few may have said they are not aware of any. Is that being dishonest?

 

[cueman]

Could this be it?
That comment jerked my chain even though I didn't comment on it. Nobody has claimed there are no negatives. A few may have said they are not aware of any. Is that being dishonest?

You really have not read the posts carefully. I think Dickie definitely said there were no negatives. I clearly stated that "to some" changing the hit of the wood is a negative and to others a positive. See it does not concern me so much what you or other cuemakers might think is a positive or a negative. I was answering a consumers question from a consumers point of view. You asked in your other post for negatives on strength. I alread gave them in the post you quoted. Many use Gorilla glue to core with instead of epoxy. I can pull things apart that are bonded with Gorilla glue. How can that be stronger than the wood itself? I also stated that epoxy only increases the strength of an already weakened thin piece of wood. Where am I misleading anyone here and why does it bother you so much? .750" Plus 1/16 plus another 1/16 equals .875". Does anyone here normally make their cue joints that large. You did not even bother to do the math before telling me I was wrong on that one. Since you always "Tell it Like it is". Can you tell me who you are or the brand name of your cues?

 

[masonh]

i am curious too.we have seen the Denali cues ,now lets see the tellitlikeitis cues.