Isn't that what made this forum so popular? If you took that away. You would lose over half it's content.
Coring, tolerances?
- Thread starter Kim Bye
- Start date
Isn't that what made this forum so popular? If you took that away. You would lose over half it's content.
You are correct but the reality is. It seems to be human nature. Everyone may be right, the dispute happens when everyone thinks thier the only one that's right.
Reasons to smile,
If Henry Ford had his way, all cars would be black.
If some cue maker had his way in the 19th century, all cues would look the same. There would be millions and millions fewer cues in the World today, celebrate the difference.
Yesterday I sent out two cues, one cored, the other got a partial core. To me a partial cored Forearm still has 4 inches of connectivity in the bottom and then the pin comes in two inches, it's that 6 inches in the middle that changes the hit.
An African Blackwood Forearm cored 100% will play differently than one that is partial, very simple.
Handles can be 4 inches cored into the bottom, 4 inches in the top, it will play differently than the handle cored 100%.
My customers have the choice, many of my customers have returned time and time again, many have at least 5 of my cues.
MY BIG SHOUT OUT?
To all those who produce the finest looking work in the World, the CueMaker who produces the finest inlays and points, my hat goes off for all you guys, forget the multimillion dollar paintings, a nice Pool Cue can destroy them all, figuratively or literally. BTW, I don't do Points or Inlays, I have the equipment, have done them so again, Thanks for all the great work, keep it up, Thanks, Dave.
If Henry Ford had his way, all cars would be black.
If some cue maker had his way in the 19th century, all cues would look the same. There would be millions and millions fewer cues in the World today, celebrate the difference.
Yesterday I sent out two cues, one cored, the other got a partial core. To me a partial cored Forearm still has 4 inches of connectivity in the bottom and then the pin comes in two inches, it's that 6 inches in the middle that changes the hit.
An African Blackwood Forearm cored 100% will play differently than one that is partial, very simple.
Handles can be 4 inches cored into the bottom, 4 inches in the top, it will play differently than the handle cored 100%.
My customers have the choice, many of my customers have returned time and time again, many have at least 5 of my cues.
MY BIG SHOUT OUT?
To all those who produce the finest looking work in the World, the CueMaker who produces the finest inlays and points, my hat goes off for all you guys, forget the multimillion dollar paintings, a nice Pool Cue can destroy them all, figuratively or literally. BTW, I don't do Points or Inlays, I have the equipment, have done them so again, Thanks for all the great work, keep it up, Thanks, Dave.
It sucks for somebody to say you're wrong when you think all along you are the one that's on the right side of things. My post #33 certainly ruffled a few of the hens feathers. That's what happens when you read and retain only part of a post. (reference a middle sentence that clearly states that the following lines of the post is for my purposes only) I understand, happens to me occasionally also. I'm a big boy tho....unlike a few others I can handle it.
So....YOU tell me.....
I decide I'm going to try this new style of coring glue. Commonly referred to as PU glue.
Bring some home...read the directions on the bottle and figure I'm going to have some issues before I even open bottle. I'm paraphrasing the directions.... "parts should be tight fitting and clamped for best results....apply the glue to one side and wet with moisture the other side before clamping."
Immediately I think to myself how in the heck am I going to clamp the core into the host wood?
So I fit my core as I normally do for my epoxy gluing op. Easy in and out but doesn't fall out. Apply the glue to the inside of the bored out host wood and using a slightly damp cloth I quickly wipe the core....(because in my head I'm thinking we all know what happens when wood meets water) I immediately insert the core and begin to push and twist....sure enough, in less than 5 seconds later I have a bucket of crap in my hands.
Core didn't make it half way through and seized up. Hmmmmmmmm.....
I must have done something wrong so I rethink the process and switch up which part has the glue and which part I apply the water to. Same end result...a bucket of crap in hands. We're cuemakers right?..... we figure things out.
Next I decide the wood has to have at least some water (moisture) in it, right? So you guessed it....on the next one I just apply the glue to BOTH the inside of the core and the core itself. Wallaaaa......It made it all the way thru without seizing up.
I almost instantly see it start foaming out the ends so I believe I may have been correct in the wood having at least a small amount of moisture in it to activate the glue. Because that's what the directions say....it needs moisture to cure properly.
I'm in business now...............
I let the cores lay around for a few days and feel they're plenty cured (at least it seems that way to me). I don't remember off the top of head but I believe the bottle said 24-48hrs for a good cure? I feel I'm well within that cycle so lets check this wonder glue out and see how far down the road it'll take us. I bounce it....sounds pretty solid....I bang another piece of wood up and down the length to see if I possibly can hear a noise of some type.....nothing! So far seems OK. Next I set the glued piece up in my lathe between centers and decide to run a test or two just to check out the adhesion properties.
Using a parting tool I slice into the outer shell down to the core itself in several places down the length from the end leaving each piece approximately 3/16 give or take thick. Next I use a pair of needle nose pliers and grab the disc piece to give it some side action. After repeating this several times what I found was far from wanting something like this involved in my building process of a cue or cues.
Each section seemed to just snap off like a piece of peanut brittle leaving not one small piece of the host wood connected to the core! WHOOOOAAAA! Throw out the anchor and rein in the ponies. I'm pretty much done at this point but at least I feel I gave it a fair enough shot to see what all the rage was about.
I understand all that weighing and mixing and stirring.....can certainly wear a person down to the point of needing a coffee break.
So....YOU tell me......am I wrong for not wanting to potentially step in what I see as a huge bucket of shiit for the construction of my cues?
Like I said in post #33......All of the above is for my purposes only.
Now go ahead and ask that I be banned or not allowed to say something about something that you do or you feel is the right thing or complain about how big my ego is....honestly, I really don't give a shiit.
This forum is for sharing...not sitting around the campfire holding hands and singing feel good songs in every post.
If the heat is too bright...............step away from the fire. Pretty simple.
Merry Christmas everyone ( that includes the whiners too)
So....YOU tell me.....
I decide I'm going to try this new style of coring glue. Commonly referred to as PU glue.
Bring some home...read the directions on the bottle and figure I'm going to have some issues before I even open bottle. I'm paraphrasing the directions.... "parts should be tight fitting and clamped for best results....apply the glue to one side and wet with moisture the other side before clamping."
Immediately I think to myself how in the heck am I going to clamp the core into the host wood?
So I fit my core as I normally do for my epoxy gluing op. Easy in and out but doesn't fall out. Apply the glue to the inside of the bored out host wood and using a slightly damp cloth I quickly wipe the core....(because in my head I'm thinking we all know what happens when wood meets water) I immediately insert the core and begin to push and twist....sure enough, in less than 5 seconds later I have a bucket of crap in my hands.
Core didn't make it half way through and seized up. Hmmmmmmmm.....
I must have done something wrong so I rethink the process and switch up which part has the glue and which part I apply the water to. Same end result...a bucket of crap in hands. We're cuemakers right?..... we figure things out.
Next I decide the wood has to have at least some water (moisture) in it, right? So you guessed it....on the next one I just apply the glue to BOTH the inside of the core and the core itself. Wallaaaa......It made it all the way thru without seizing up.
I almost instantly see it start foaming out the ends so I believe I may have been correct in the wood having at least a small amount of moisture in it to activate the glue. Because that's what the directions say....it needs moisture to cure properly.
I'm in business now...............
I let the cores lay around for a few days and feel they're plenty cured (at least it seems that way to me). I don't remember off the top of head but I believe the bottle said 24-48hrs for a good cure? I feel I'm well within that cycle so lets check this wonder glue out and see how far down the road it'll take us. I bounce it....sounds pretty solid....I bang another piece of wood up and down the length to see if I possibly can hear a noise of some type.....nothing! So far seems OK. Next I set the glued piece up in my lathe between centers and decide to run a test or two just to check out the adhesion properties.
Using a parting tool I slice into the outer shell down to the core itself in several places down the length from the end leaving each piece approximately 3/16 give or take thick. Next I use a pair of needle nose pliers and grab the disc piece to give it some side action. After repeating this several times what I found was far from wanting something like this involved in my building process of a cue or cues.
Each section seemed to just snap off like a piece of peanut brittle leaving not one small piece of the host wood connected to the core! WHOOOOAAAA! Throw out the anchor and rein in the ponies. I'm pretty much done at this point but at least I feel I gave it a fair enough shot to see what all the rage was about.
I understand all that weighing and mixing and stirring.....can certainly wear a person down to the point of needing a coffee break.
So....YOU tell me......am I wrong for not wanting to potentially step in what I see as a huge bucket of shiit for the construction of my cues?
Like I said in post #33......All of the above is for my purposes only.
Now go ahead and ask that I be banned or not allowed to say something about something that you do or you feel is the right thing or complain about how big my ego is....honestly, I really don't give a shiit.
This forum is for sharing...not sitting around the campfire holding hands and singing feel good songs in every post.
If the heat is too bright...............step away from the fire. Pretty simple.
Merry Christmas everyone ( that includes the whiners too)
It certainly may. And it may not. It depends on what it's cored with, size of the core, etc. Coring for me opens a lot of doors that I never had before.
I realized that not only could I engineer the weight & balance, but also the tonal characteristics. As mentioned earlier in the thread, each type of wood provides a particular hit/feel. But it's not the name of the wood that makes the difference. It's the tonal pitch and sustain, basically the sensation you feel as the tip impacts the ball. If you don't core, you have to choose wood combinations to achieve a particular feel, but are stuck with the weight & balance that combination provides. If you core, you can engineer that feel while controlling weight & balance.
A couple months ago I delivered a cue that was ebony from joint to butt cap. With 3.8oz shafts I had to add weight to the back in order to achieve 19oz with a 19.25" balance point. The hit was firm yet sensitive & lively, just a very easy & comfortable cue to play with. If I did not core, that cue would be impossible to build to those specs, let alone expect the that kind of feel & performance. Some would argue that the cue doesn't hit like ebony, and maybe they are correct. It hits the way I wanted it to hit. I wanted it to look like ebony, hit like rosewood, and weigh in like maple. That's exactly what it did. On the same token, if I want a cue to hit like ebony, I make it hit like ebony regardless of the wood you see on the outside. That's the key reason I core.
The other reasons I core is for stability & stress relief. When you gut out the core of a piece of wood, you are relieving the majority of internal stress it may have. At the same time that sleeve will act as a stabilizer for the core you put into it. The core & the host compliment and support one another in structural terms, while at the same time proportionately balance a marriage of tonal characteristics into one. Coring kingwood with maple will dull the tone of the kingwood, while coring it with ipe would brighten it. Coring maple with ipe would closely mimic a kingwood tone but you'd have a maple forearm & 25% lower weight. Take things a step farther & utilize different core sizes. A 3/4" core will obviously have 25% more dramatic effect than a 1/2" core. There's nothing mystical or wondrous about it. Further yet, choose shafts by weight & tone to compliment the butt. Most of my cues have a cored forearm, cored handle, and shafts chosen for weight & tone to achieve a particular overall feel & performance. Everything is done on purpose for a reason, with one common end result goal.
In a nut shell, coring for me has nothing to do with shortcuts or making cues faster. It has everything to do with giving me more control over the details. It does make things easier. In fact, it allows me to do things I was unable to do before coring. I can make an all ebony cue wigh less than 19oz, or make a burl forearm cue hit hard & pingy, etc. Choosing the appropriate core material & size allows me to do those things. IMO, coring is an evolution in cue making, not a shortcut.
It sucks for somebody to say you're wrong when you think all along you are the one that's on the right side of things. My post #33 certainly ruffled a few of the hens feathers. That's what happens when you read and retain only part of a post. (reference a middle sentence that clearly states that the following lines of the post is for my purposes only) I understand, happens to me occasionally also. I'm a big boy tho....unlike a few others I can handle it.
So....YOU tell me.....
I decide I'm going to try this new style of coring glue. Commonly referred to as PU glue.
Bring some home...read the directions on the bottle and figure I'm going to have some issues before I even open bottle. I'm paraphrasing the directions.... "parts should be tight fitting and clamped for best results....apply the glue to one side and wet with moisture the other side before clamping."
Immediately I think to myself how in the heck am I going to clamp the core into the host wood?
So I fit my core as I normally do for my epoxy gluing op. Easy in and out but doesn't fall out. Apply the glue to the inside of the bored out host wood and using a slightly damp cloth I quickly wipe the core....(because in my head I'm thinking we all know what happens when wood meets water) I immediately insert the core and begin to push and twist....sure enough, in less than 5 seconds later I have a bucket of crap in my hands.
Core didn't make it half way through and seized up. Hmmmmmmmm.....
I must have done something wrong so I rethink the process and switch up which part has the glue and which part I apply the water to. Same end result...a bucket of crap in hands. We're cuemakers right?..... we figure things out.
Next I decide the wood has to have at least some water (moisture) in it, right? So you guessed it....on the next one I just apply the glue to BOTH the inside of the core and the core itself. Wallaaaa......It made it all the way thru without seizing up.
I almost instantly see it start foaming out the ends so I believe I may have been correct in the wood having at least a small amount of moisture in it to activate the glue. Because that's what the directions say....it needs moisture to cure properly.
I'm in business now...............
I let the cores lay around for a few days and feel they're plenty cured (at least it seems that way to me). I don't remember off the top of head but I believe the bottle said 24-48hrs for a good cure? I feel I'm well within that cycle so lets check this wonder glue out and see how far down the road it'll take us. I bounce it....sounds pretty solid....I bang another piece of wood up and down the length to see if I possibly can hear a noise of some type.....nothing! So far seems OK. Next I set the glued piece up in my lathe between centers and decide to run a test or two just to check out the adhesion properties.
Using a parting tool I slice into the outer shell down to the core itself in several places down the length from the end leaving each piece approximately 3/16 give or take thick. Next I use a pair of needle nose pliers and grab the disc piece to give it some side action. After repeating this several times what I found was far from wanting something like this involved in my building process of a cue or cues.
Each section seemed to just snap off like a piece of peanut brittle leaving not one small piece of the host wood connected to the core! WHOOOOAAAA! Throw out the anchor and rein in the ponies. I'm pretty much done at this point but at least I feel I gave it a fair enough shot to see what all the rage was about.
I understand all that weighing and mixing and stirring.....can certainly wear a person down to the point of needing a coffee break.
So....YOU tell me......am I wrong for not wanting to potentially step in what I see as a huge bucket of shiit for the construction of my cues?
Like I said in post #33......All of the above is for my purposes only.
Now go ahead and ask that I be banned or not allowed to say something about something that you do or you feel is the right thing or complain about how big my ego is....honestly, I really don't give a shiit.
This forum is for sharing...not sitting around the campfire holding hands and singing feel good songs in every post.
If the heat is too bright...............step away from the fire. Pretty simple.
Merry Christmas everyone ( that includes the whiners too)
:slap: A$$hole
J/K. Great post. You & the better half have a wonderful Christmas :smile:
No, this thread had not deteriated yet. I just saw a few comments that would normally get a smart elic response and cause things to go down hill. It is good that did not happen and people actually shared some more really useful information.
I glued a 6" dowel to a 4" sleeve piece using a PU just for giggles.It sucks for somebody to say you're wrong when you think all along you are the one that's on the right side of things. My post #33 certainly ruffled a few of the hens feathers. That's what happens when you read and retain only part of a post. (reference a middle sentence that clearly states that the following lines of the post is for my purposes only) I understand, happens to me occasionally also. I'm a big boy tho....unlike a few others I can handle it.
So....YOU tell me.....
I decide I'm going to try this new style of coring glue. Commonly referred to as PU glue.
Bring some home...read the directions on the bottle and figure I'm going to have some issues before I even open bottle. I'm paraphrasing the directions.... "parts should be tight fitting and clamped for best results....apply the glue to one side and wet with moisture the other side before clamping."
Immediately I think to myself how in the heck am I going to clamp the core into the host wood?
So I fit my core as I normally do for my epoxy gluing op. Easy in and out but doesn't fall out. Apply the glue to the inside of the bored out host wood and using a slightly damp cloth I quickly wipe the core....(because in my head I'm thinking we all know what happens when wood meets water) I immediately insert the core and begin to push and twist....sure enough, in less than 5 seconds later I have a bucket of crap in my hands.
Core didn't make it half way through and seized up. Hmmmmmmmm.....
I must have done something wrong so I rethink the process and switch up which part has the glue and which part I apply the water to. Same end result...a bucket of crap in hands. We're cuemakers right?..... we figure things out.
Next I decide the wood has to have at least some water (moisture) in it, right? So you guessed it....on the next one I just apply the glue to BOTH the inside of the core and the core itself. Wallaaaa......It made it all the way thru without seizing up.
I almost instantly see it start foaming out the ends so I believe I may have been correct in the wood having at least a small amount of moisture in it to activate the glue. Because that's what the directions say....it needs moisture to cure properly.
I'm in business now...............
I let the cores lay around for a few days and feel they're plenty cured (at least it seems that way to me). I don't remember off the top of head but I believe the bottle said 24-48hrs for a good cure? I feel I'm well within that cycle so lets check this wonder glue out and see how far down the road it'll take us. I bounce it....sounds pretty solid....I bang another piece of wood up and down the length to see if I possibly can hear a noise of some type.....nothing! So far seems OK. Next I set the glued piece up in my lathe between centers and decide to run a test or two just to check out the adhesion properties.
Using a parting tool I slice into the outer shell down to the core itself in several places down the length from the end leaving each piece approximately 3/16 give or take thick. Next I use a pair of needle nose pliers and grab the disc piece to give it some side action. After repeating this several times what I found was far from wanting something like this involved in my building process of a cue or cues.
Each section seemed to just snap off like a piece of peanut brittle leaving not one small piece of the host wood connected to the core! WHOOOOAAAA! Throw out the anchor and rein in the ponies. I'm pretty much done at this point but at least I feel I gave it a fair enough shot to see what all the rage was about.
I understand all that weighing and mixing and stirring.....can certainly wear a person down to the point of needing a coffee break.
So....YOU tell me......am I wrong for not wanting to potentially step in what I see as a huge bucket of shiit for the construction of my cues?
Like I said in post #33......All of the above is for my purposes only.
Now go ahead and ask that I be banned or not allowed to say something about something that you do or you feel is the right thing or complain about how big my ego is....honestly, I really don't give a shiit.
This forum is for sharing...not sitting around the campfire holding hands and singing feel good songs in every post.
If the heat is too bright...............step away from the fire. Pretty simple.
Merry Christmas everyone ( that includes the whiners too)
When it dried some two days later, I chucked up on the sleeve.
Hammered the one end of the dowel with a soft blow a few times.
I didn't move an eyelash.
Turned the sleeve and took some cuts.
Noticed the same thing you noticed.
It just peels off.
Not like when you use epoxy.
Not gonna argue if it really matters when the dowel is going to have a collar ring on top that will butt in to the sleeve. And the bottom will butt in in the handle.
Where is it going ?
West System 206 and some powder after wetting/wicking first works just fine too. Reverse threads on the dowel plus 4 keyways ought to do it.
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And years ago, you were adamantly against coring iirc.
Yes I was, for the same reasons that have been given in this thread. But I have been wrong about a lot of things. It doesn't bother me to be wrong. Several years ago I had a moment where I realized I don't know half of what I think I know, and the stuff I actually do know is likely wrong. I have been wrong so much that it wouldn't surprise me to find out I was right the first time. The thing is, I wasn't able to learn anything new and progress because I already knew it all. And truth be told it was probably more insecurity than anything. I didn't want to be wrong. That would mean I wasn't the cue maker I thought I was. Lucky for me, I learned to embrace the failure. Now every time i'm wrong it means I get to learn something right.
Excellent thought and I had the very same feeling....... at first. If we're all threading our collars like we should be
the core/host piece will be basically encapsulated on both ends anyway. No where for it to go, right?I couldn't get past how easily the host wood just peeled away off the glue surrounding the core wood. Wood moves....send your cue to Asia and back to AZ and then to the east coast. I don't feel comfortable taking that chance with just a bunch of maybes and what if's.
If it's so great...why aren't you using it close up your A joint? Most all the tests I've read say that PU glue comes out best in the test compared to others where it was used gluing end grains.
No wait......I'll tell you why you don't use it for your A Joint. Because the larger the gap it has to fill the weaker the PU bond. Unlike epoxy, which if applied correctly, is an excellent gap filler for us.
Here's the thing, and that glue test you posted in the other thread had the same problem (I remember when that article came out, and actually remember thinking this same exact thing even back then). Polyurethane glues have to be applied in a thin layer and clamped. A good fit, or even tight fit, just isn't good enough if you need to develop full strength...not that you necessarily need full strength all the time. It essentially needs an interference fit to develop reasonable strength. Without clamping it's not really a fair test of the glue. In this respect, it's even worse than a traditional wood glue in it's clamping requirements. I'd also be interested in seeing what a clamped epoxy joint did. I bet the strength would drop off a cliff if you clamped it tight.
I'd also bet that Titebond would outperform a polyurethane in a coring application, which is really nothing more than a fancy mortise and through tenon. Perhaps long term the wood glue has a weakness to heat and moisture so it's not fair to say that it "outperforms" it, but I mean just in terms of raw gluing strength under normal conditions.
Anyhow, again it's nothing to do with cue building (which I'll repeat that I know next to nothing about). Just more about glue properties. My gut tells me that a foamed up Polyurethane probably does help a little to prevent rattles, even if you have to depend on ring work and a humongous glue surface area to actually hold the thing together.
Well said. The thing about certainty is that it guarantees a future full of uncertainty. Please answer my e-mail : )
Mario
Haha...I've certainly been labeled much worse!
Back at Ya. Hopefully no reindeer donuts in your stocking this year!
Very easy call there.Excellent thought and I had the very same feeling....... at first. If we're all threading our collars like we should be
I couldn't get past how easily the host wood just peeled away off the glue surrounding the core wood. Wood moves....send your cue to Asia and back to AZ and then to the east coast. I don't feel comfortable taking that chance with just a bunch of maybes and what if's.
If it's so great...why aren't you using it close up your A joint? Most all the tests I've read say that PU glue comes out best in the test compared to others where it was used gluing end grains.
No wait......I'll tell you why you don't use it for your A Joint. Because the larger the gap it has to fill the weaker the PU bond. Unlike epoxy, which if applied correctly, is an excellent gap filler for us.
Epoxy is 1000X stronger and in a blind-hole, the epoxy ( when done right ) will absolutely have no gaps.
And after I did a mock-up that was stored in the trunk of my car for weeks, I was sold on WS process.
Before that, I was actually using the strongest epoxy available to consumer ( afaik it's the DP-460 ).
You're catching on quick! :lmao:
Merry Christmas to you & family
Hope yall are doing well.
There are a lot of Cue makers who don't core.
Southwest, Dennis Searing, John Showman. Paul Fanelli didn't core. Etc. Etc. Etc. I don't know. Everyone is right.
Spoken like a true gentleman, one who backs up what he says. I didn't know this about these fine Cuemakers, Thanks so much.
A wise man can learn from any fool, a fool will never learn from a wise man.
What's the difference between a room full of cuemakers and a room full of fools?