Could SVB be the G.O.A.T. ???
- Thread starter Maniac
- Start date
Yes, "Predator World 10-Ball Championship 2007," several months before Shane won the US Open 9-Ball for the first time.
Here's the list of the 24 players in the money for that 10-Ball event: http://www.azbilliards.com/tours_an...ator-world-10-ball-championship-2007/results/
I missed the end of the match, but it seems like Kiamco led the whole way and somehow Shane ended up winning. Shane had several hill hill wins in the 8 ball.
I think sometimes Shane benefits from the aura around him or just the sheer intimidation factor of having to fade his unbelievable break. This week several players definitely played quite subpar against him. Orcullo shot a near perfect set against Kaci- he didn’t miss a ball- the only error he made was breaking dry. Against Shane, Dennis put up a good fight but played much worse than he did against Kaci- he missed a few balls that I’ve almost never seen Dennis miss.
Thorsten Hohmann played outright terrible against Shane. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a pro play worse.
Shane puts added pressure on players, especially when they see that he is at his top gear.
No but he might get there
It’s my opinion that he is the best rotation (9 or 10 ball) player going right now. His 8 ball game is also flat out amazing and he may be the best at that.
I also truly believe that if he devoted his time to 1 pocket the way he focuses on rotation, that he would be the best at that as well.
It takes a world class 1 pocket player to beat him even though its not his best game.
Is he the GOAT right now? No. One day in the future? Good possibility.
It’s my opinion that he is the best rotation (9 or 10 ball) player going right now. His 8 ball game is also flat out amazing and he may be the best at that.
I also truly believe that if he devoted his time to 1 pocket the way he focuses on rotation, that he would be the best at that as well.
It takes a world class 1 pocket player to beat him even though its not his best game.
Is he the GOAT right now? No. One day in the future? Good possibility.
correct
Correct.
SVB is greater than the sum of his game. Analytically other players shoot as well after the break, and many have developed a big break. Certainly there are many players who can turn in a perfect set.
Yet somehow SVB rises to the occasion and others crumble in his presence. Not always, but enough to see a difference. His confidence is supreme. And he has found the right mental space, not trying too hard, almost like he's irritated, looking like he's giving about 80-90%, but yet playing freely with trust and confidence and flowing through difficult racks and generating tons of opportunities with his break and execution.
Hard to explain how tough this is to overcome, but it's tough to fade. Pool in many ways is a test of belief and confidence, and this is how he takes a great game and gets unparalleled results.
Correct.
SVB is greater than the sum of his game. Analytically other players shoot as well after the break, and many have developed a big break. Certainly there are many players who can turn in a perfect set.
Yet somehow SVB rises to the occasion and others crumble in his presence. Not always, but enough to see a difference. His confidence is supreme. And he has found the right mental space, not trying too hard, almost like he's irritated, looking like he's giving about 80-90%, but yet playing freely with trust and confidence and flowing through difficult racks and generating tons of opportunities with his break and execution.
Hard to explain how tough this is to overcome, but it's tough to fade. Pool in many ways is a test of belief and confidence, and this is how he takes a great game and gets unparalleled results.
What year was that?
http://wpapool.com/world-champions/
EDIT-Never mind i see the answer above and all i can say is -lol
That’s the crux of it. Do you measure GOAT based on legacy or ability?
SVB raised the bar, set a new standard, and racked up a legacy waiting for the field to rise to his level. Kaci, Shaw or Filler could hypothetically surpass that level of ability in the future (they are close now) but not be able to build the same dominant win record as SVB because the field is so tough.
It’s like when I think of Efren. Back then most players kicked to make contact while he kicked to hit a specific side of the object ball. They couldn’t win enough safety battles against him. Today’s top professionals, every single one of them can kick to hit a specific side of the ball. They were shown it’s possible and shown it’s required to win, so they all set out to learn it. And with books, videos, Internet, etc. it wasn’t as hard to learn. Unlike half a century ago where nobody shared their secrets or would intentionally mislead you.
Respectfully, Matt
(I don’t take myself too seriously. I hope you can return the favor.)
Name 10 guys you want playing Shane 1pckt and I'll take Shane against the bottom 7 every day, and wouldnt feel bad against the other 3. What other player other than Efren in the last 30yrs can you say that about along with nobody wanting to play him 10, 9, or probably 8 ball either?
Everybody keeps saying we will see in 10 years or whatever, WHAT DOES A GUY HAVE TO DO to get the respect he deserves? Doubt there will be anybody in a long time that puts up the #s Shane has.
Shane has raised the bar and now you have a good sized group of players that are playing at that level or better from time to time and he is still winning. Earl and Efren didn't have that kind of competition and certainly not the # of players that strong.
Jason
Ha, we were typing at the same time^^^^^^good post!
Everybody keeps saying we will see in 10 years or whatever, WHAT DOES A GUY HAVE TO DO to get the respect he deserves? Doubt there will be anybody in a long time that puts up the #s Shane has.
Shane has raised the bar and now you have a good sized group of players that are playing at that level or better from time to time and he is still winning. Earl and Efren didn't have that kind of competition and certainly not the # of players that strong.
Jason
Ha, we were typing at the same time^^^^^^good post!
He has people's respect but to be considered the Greatest of all Time, you need to be dominant for your entire career. Who knows, he may just decide he doesn't want to travel anymore and just goes fishing year round.
Do you consider Tiger Woods the Greatest of all time even with how he has performed in the last 5 years? He had an amazing record for Majors and then went on a downward spiral. In say 2008, everyone thought it was a given that he would pass Nicklaus for most majors. Doubtful he will ever win another one.
Pure boxing skill it was Joe Louis.
He had it all.
Best all around heavyweight of all time.
Here's my take on it for what it's worth. Shane is definitely one of the greatest players of this generation, along with the top Filipinos, Chinese and Euros. I would put him in the top five players in the world today. That said, I have become convinced that the best players today play at a higher level than all but a few of the top players of earlier generations.
There still may not be a better Straight Pool player than Mizerak was, and Sigel was not far behind. Same goes for One Pocket with Efren and Ronnie arguably as good or better than any of the current crop of players. In 9-Ball the absolute best I ever saw was Earl at his peak. He could match Shane ball for ball and game for game. He put up similar packages to what Shane (and others) are doing today. Buddy handled the cue ball as good or better than anyone I'm watching now as well. And Sigel knew how to win, proving it over and over again. Let's not forget about Parica, the greatest money player of his era. Jose was also the best Ten Ball player for many years also.
But as good as Parica played the game the current crop of Ten Ball champions is definitely a level above the competition he faced. Parica would have his hands full battling Shane at this game, plus Orcollo, Yi, Chang and others as well. IMO the ten to fifteen best players in pool today are all the best players who ever lived! They have all learned to excel at Ten Ball, a much tougher test than 9-Ball, the previous yard stick by which players were judged (there were more 9-Ball tournaments than any others by far!). Twenty to thirty years ago no one was playing run out Ten Ball, other than Parica in money games. And he wasn't putting together packages like Shane is doing now.
My bottom line on all this is that Shane may well be the best Ten Ball player of this generation (with a lot of close competitors) and that's about all. He is not the most dominant player in any other pool game, just one of the best. He does have a great record in U.S. based events and has done well Internationally too. Buddy is the only player I can think of that was winning as many tournaments each year as Shane does now. He won them on 9' and bar tables just like Shane is doing today. And don't think his competition was not tough either, because it was, without having to name names of all the great players he had to deal with week after week. Remember, the U.S. had almost all the best players in the 70's, 80's and 90's when Buddy, Sigel, Nick and Earl ruled the game.
I'm with Stu here. GOAT, not hardly. Greatest American player of this era - definitely! He follows in the footsteps of Earl and Johnny leading up to today's group of American players. I will add this though. The current group of American pool players is the weakest I've ever seen. For many years we would have a couple dozen of the best players in the world in the USA. That's no longer the case and also why the Filipinos can come over here and clean house week after week.
P.S. the one huge blemish on Shane's resume remains his abysmal record in the Mosconi Cup. You can cut it any way you like but the fact remains he has failed over and over again to step up in this very important competition. The U.S. teams featuring Varner, Rempe, Davenport, Archer, Strickland and Morris wiped up the Euros year after year.
There still may not be a better Straight Pool player than Mizerak was, and Sigel was not far behind. Same goes for One Pocket with Efren and Ronnie arguably as good or better than any of the current crop of players. In 9-Ball the absolute best I ever saw was Earl at his peak. He could match Shane ball for ball and game for game. He put up similar packages to what Shane (and others) are doing today. Buddy handled the cue ball as good or better than anyone I'm watching now as well. And Sigel knew how to win, proving it over and over again. Let's not forget about Parica, the greatest money player of his era. Jose was also the best Ten Ball player for many years also.
But as good as Parica played the game the current crop of Ten Ball champions is definitely a level above the competition he faced. Parica would have his hands full battling Shane at this game, plus Orcollo, Yi, Chang and others as well. IMO the ten to fifteen best players in pool today are all the best players who ever lived! They have all learned to excel at Ten Ball, a much tougher test than 9-Ball, the previous yard stick by which players were judged (there were more 9-Ball tournaments than any others by far!). Twenty to thirty years ago no one was playing run out Ten Ball, other than Parica in money games. And he wasn't putting together packages like Shane is doing now.
My bottom line on all this is that Shane may well be the best Ten Ball player of this generation (with a lot of close competitors) and that's about all. He is not the most dominant player in any other pool game, just one of the best. He does have a great record in U.S. based events and has done well Internationally too. Buddy is the only player I can think of that was winning as many tournaments each year as Shane does now. He won them on 9' and bar tables just like Shane is doing today. And don't think his competition was not tough either, because it was, without having to name names of all the great players he had to deal with week after week. Remember, the U.S. had almost all the best players in the 70's, 80's and 90's when Buddy, Sigel, Nick and Earl ruled the game.
I'm with Stu here. GOAT, not hardly. Greatest American player of this era - definitely! He follows in the footsteps of Earl and Johnny leading up to today's group of American players. I will add this though. The current group of American pool players is the weakest I've ever seen. For many years we would have a couple dozen of the best players in the world in the USA. That's no longer the case and also why the Filipinos can come over here and clean house week after week.
P.S. the one huge blemish on Shane's resume remains his abysmal record in the Mosconi Cup. You can cut it any way you like but the fact remains he has failed over and over again to step up in this very important competition. The U.S. teams featuring Varner, Rempe, Davenport, Archer, Strickland and Morris wiped up the Euros year after year.
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At this time, the question is akin to asking if a 16 year old will be the tallest man ever.
Who can tell? It is possible but remains to be seen.
Who can tell? It is possible but remains to be seen.
Perhaps so overall, but I don't think Efren would want any part of Shane in 10 ball even when he was in his prime. Also, Shane has to be one of the best 8 ball players ever mainly because of his break. Perhaps some of the older guys can be the best judge, but I can't imagine anybody having a better break than Shane in 8 or 10 ball.
I don't think Shane would want any part of Efren playing 15 ball rotation.
Would you still pick Shane if Bustamante broke for Efren like the days when Efren was trying to get anybody in the world to play that game giving up weight?
Efren in his prime would destroy Shane in some formats and not be a big dog in others. Just my two cents.
correct
I agree with this. 15 ball rotation would go Efren's way, and without his break SVB would be much harder pressed to win in 10 ball as well.
The only thing is, he has his break, and Busty can't break for Efren.
Man on man I don't think anyone now or in the past could beat SVB straight up in 9 ball/10 ball/8 ball. Earl had the game to do it, but I don't think he'd get there if they battled it out day after day. His high gear, yes, but overall SVB's mental game is superior. That's part of it too.
So I'm on board with Shane being the GOAT simply because I think he's the toughest competitor all things considered in these disciplines. One pocket and straight pool and banks and rotation just aren't the measuring sticks in today's day and age.
I agree with this. 15 ball rotation would go Efren's way, and without his break SVB would be much harder pressed to win in 10 ball as well.
The only thing is, he has his break, and Busty can't break for Efren.
Man on man I don't think anyone now or in the past could beat SVB straight up in 9 ball/10 ball/8 ball. Earl had the game to do it, but I don't think he'd get there if they battled it out day after day. His high gear, yes, but overall SVB's mental game is superior. That's part of it too.
So I'm on board with Shane being the GOAT simply because I think he's the toughest competitor all things considered in these disciplines. One pocket and straight pool and banks and rotation just aren't the measuring sticks in today's day and age.
Well...,
I Love SVB's game, he is a beast and seems like a pretty good fella...,
But there are 10 guys that he would have trouble with in One Pocket for sure.
And Efren did have the same level of competition as Shane because Efren has continued to win from the 80's, 90's and even last year! I think that covers all the competitive of SVB too.
I Love SVB's game, he is a beast and seems like a pretty good fella...,
But there are 10 guys that he would have trouble with in One Pocket for sure.
And Efren did have the same level of competition as Shane because Efren has continued to win from the 80's, 90's and even last year! I think that covers all the competitive of SVB too.