CTE/Pro One - Why Not Build a Physical Model?
- Thread starter Filibogado
- Start date
Well,
every person with great and enough knowledge i talked to about cte/Pro-1 or also pivot-bases systems agree with the following sentence:
those systems are not for beginners!
You need a perfect setup-and you also need to have already good fundamentals (stance, vision, stroke).
Without it will drive you crazy!
lg
Ingo
every person with great and enough knowledge i talked to about cte/Pro-1 or also pivot-bases systems agree with the following sentence:
those systems are not for beginners!
You need a perfect setup-and you also need to have already good fundamentals (stance, vision, stroke).
Without it will drive you crazy!
lg
Ingo
Filibogado
Registered
Agree 100%. That's why I thought the Joe Tucker 3rd Eye training tool might be useful to me. I am slightly vision impaired (farsighted) and when I shoot without eyeglasses, the balls are fuzzy and the perceived center on the cue ball is 1 full tip to the right. When I switch to single vision lenses, the perceived center moves to the left and merges 1/2 tip with the true center. Then I switch to progressives and my perceived center hovers from side-to-side depending on how high I tilt my head up and down.
To add insult to injury, I am also left-handed so I have to constantly keep reversing all of them aiming instructions to make them work from a southpaw's perspective. Plus my opthalmologist tells me that my optic nerve is stretched tight, I have lost 25% of my peripheral vision, and run the risk of being cross-eyed if I don't use them eyedrops regularly.
Which makes me wonder - how would a cross-eyed left-handed pool player go about finding CTE/Pro One's physical equivalent of the fabled G-spot (if you catch my drift)?
Just sayin',
Fil
Good idea. Although, where the 3rd laser line hits the OB (or doesn't hit the OB) is not where the CB will hit the OB. The 3rd laser line needs to go through the center of the necessary ghost-ball position to have the CB create the necessary contact point on the OB:
Here's an illustration of the A/B/C points if people don't know what they are:
and a summary of the basics of how they are used can be found here:
Stan's DVD explains, illustrates, and demonstrates how the system is applied with and without manual pivots for a wide range of shots.
Regards,
Dave
IMO, that's the case for most aiming systems, if for no other reason than to isolate the variables. We're naturally results oriented thinkers, and if we miss while learning the system without solid mechanics we don't register what that miss means correctly. The best information you'll ever get comes when you miss the shot.
Once that's established though, getting the DVD and going through the practice shots really helps. By seeing both why you made and missed balls it helps you come to terms with the process and make better initial inputs.
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Good idea. Although, where the 3rd laser line hits the OB (or doesn't hit the OB) is not where the CB will hit the OB. The 3rd laser line needs to go through the center of the necessary ghost-ball position to have the CB create the necessary contact point on the OB:
Here's an illustration of the A/B/C points if people don't know what they are:
and a summary of the basics of how they are used can be found here:
Stan's DVD explains, illustrates, and demonstrates how the system is applied with and without manual pivots for a wide range of shots.
Regards,
Dave
That isn't the overlap based on the shooter's perspective. Unless the CB/OB have a zero separation (taking up the same space, which means they'd have to be a hologram), your diagram is another example of bad information when it comes to aiming. You've been told that before, yet you still link to it.
Aiming is a three dimensional process in pool due to perspective. The OB always (stress always) appears smaller than the CB. This, in turn, affects the perceived (versus actual) geometry of the shot.
The diagram isn't meant to show what a shooter sees in 3D perspective. The purpose is to illustrate that when the CB reaches the necessary ghost-ball position, the contact point is in the center of the projected area of ball overlap. I think the diagram illustrates this important fact very clearly.
That isn't the overlap based on the shooter's perspective.
Agreed. This can be illustrated on a drawing either with perspective or an orthographic projection, but the message can still be the same with either approach (e.g., the CTE line is still the CTE line, regardless of how you draw it ... with or without perspective).
Agreed. Depending on how your vision is aligned, things can be perceived very differently, and these perception issues can be different for different people. That's why it is so important to identify your personal vision center and always align this along the aiming line; otherwise, the aiming line will not be perceived properly. Good illustrations of this (with 3D perspective) can be found here:
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (Billiards Digest, July, 2011)
Regards,
Dave
Filibogado
Registered
I just sent you a pm for instant feedback. I tried the secret technique last night and all I could say was...WOW, what a simple and elegant solution to an otherwise complex visualization problem! It was right under my nose and I didn't even notice it! My ball pocketing average went up a few notches after just an hour of practice. I will of course respect our confidentiality agreement, and to honor this pledge, this will be my last post on CTE/Pro One. God bless you and your flock, and may your tribe increase!
Fil
Then why does it say "shooter's perspective" if aiming is indeed three dimensional, as you previously agreed? It's not the shooter's perspective -- your diagram is mislabeled.
That's why people miss long shots with those overlap systems and don't know why (especially as distance increases). That's why that stuff is "bad information" and why people are held-back. It's only geometrically correct on paper. In practice, it's way off.
i have been playing around with a new idea lately using cte/pro1 and i have really not had time to work on it and it has to do with the shooters perspective and distances and couple other things. I have been going back and forth discussing stuff with Mikjary who is an advanced thinker when it comes to aiming and exploring new ideas. He is one of the few guys i follow on here and if your smart you will too. its too bad all the aiming debates in the past has quieted him down from posting more about aiming.
I had my first CTE lesson last Monday
It is so confusing.
Maybe i'm dyslexic?
I have been struggling with my game for about a year and reading all the various aiming systems.
Paul taught me about CTE and I had a hard time grasping the concept.
It took a while but I finally got it, I think?
We played last night but I did not use CTE.
First thing Paul noticed was that my stroke was not straight.
Bob Jewett also told me this.
So I am trying to correct my stroke, by shooting over the spot and having the cue ball come back to the tip.
On a soft hit, the cue ball comes back fairly close, not consistent enough thou.
On a hard hit, Im not even close.
I need to correct my stroke before, I can start using CTE to give it a good try.
I am glad that Paul is there to hear my questions over and over and correct me.
I am going to buy Stan's Pro 1, but not for me.
Right now Paul is my teacher.
I want Paul to review the Pro 1 and tell me what he thinks.
I am going to start viewing Pro 1 two months before the Derby.
I will take several lessons from Stan, to clear up my mis-interpretations of his system.
It is so confusing.
Maybe i'm dyslexic?
I have been struggling with my game for about a year and reading all the various aiming systems.
Paul taught me about CTE and I had a hard time grasping the concept.
It took a while but I finally got it, I think?
We played last night but I did not use CTE.
First thing Paul noticed was that my stroke was not straight.
Bob Jewett also told me this.
So I am trying to correct my stroke, by shooting over the spot and having the cue ball come back to the tip.
On a soft hit, the cue ball comes back fairly close, not consistent enough thou.
On a hard hit, Im not even close.
I need to correct my stroke before, I can start using CTE to give it a good try.
I am glad that Paul is there to hear my questions over and over and correct me.
I am going to buy Stan's Pro 1, but not for me.
Right now Paul is my teacher.
I want Paul to review the Pro 1 and tell me what he thinks.
I am going to start viewing Pro 1 two months before the Derby.
I will take several lessons from Stan, to clear up my mis-interpretations of his system.
I always liked this diagram, LAMas. This diagram actually demonstrates quite a bit. It demonstrates that equal-the-distance overlaps are cumbersome with discs of different sizes (visually). It also shows that "CB edge-to-target" references dictate the offset of the shooter's eyes from the CTEL (as diagrammed above) based on distance.
.Good idea. Although, where the 3rd laser line hits the OB (or doesn't hit the OB) is not where the CB will hit the OB. The 3rd laser line needs to go through the center of the necessary ghost-ball position to have the CB create the necessary contact point on the OB:
Here's an illustration of the A/B/C points if people don't know what they are:
and a summary of the basics of how they are used can be found here:
Stan's DVD explains, illustrates, and demonstrates how the system is applied with and without manual pivots for a wide range of shots.
Regards,
Dave
Thanks for the correction. I should have mentioned that it would be the center of ghost ball and not the point on the OB. Good catch. :thumbup:
.
This laser talk is a red herring and a dead end. What you see perceptually isn't the actual line.
For example, an edge to edge visual alignment isn't an edge to edge line in reality. A true edge to edge would be a circle within a circle. If two circles' edges meet (as would happen with a visual alignment), it's no longer an edge to edge / center to center alignment physically.
Physical edge-to-edge alignment
Visual edge-to-edge alignment (no longer edge to edge / center to center based on line of sight)
For example, an edge to edge visual alignment isn't an edge to edge line in reality. A true edge to edge would be a circle within a circle. If two circles' edges meet (as would happen with a visual alignment), it's no longer an edge to edge / center to center alignment physically.
Physical edge-to-edge alignment
Visual edge-to-edge alignment (no longer edge to edge / center to center based on line of sight)
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This laser talk is a red herring and a dead end. What you see perceptually isn't the actual line.
For example, an edge to edge visual alignment isn't an edge to edge line in reality. A true edge to edge would be a circle within a circle. If two circles' edges meet (as would happen with a visual alignment), it's no longer an edge to edge / center to center alignment physically.
Physical edge-to-edge alignment
Visual edge-to-edge alignment (no longer edge to edge / center to center based on line of sight)
Well said, Dave. Especially how the object ball bottom is not shown on the same plane as the cue ball bottom. For a shot at a distance, the eyes/head could be lowered to gain this perspective...or maybe something Champ has been working on may be relative here.
Best,
Mike
Actually, none of the diagrams in this thread, including yours, are truly from the shooter's perspective, because the eyes are above the chin, which is above the cue, which is elevated over the rails, so the eyes see a 3D perspective view of the balls from an elevated position above the balls. Also, if the person's vision center is not properly aligned, the perception of the geometry might be incorrect anyway, as illustrated in the following article, which does include true 3D perspective illustrations:
“Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (Billiards Digest, July, 2011)
FYI, in the diagram, what I meant by "from shooter's perspective" was "looking along the aiming line" and not "from above" as the main part of the diagram is shown. Again, the purpose for this diagram is not to illustrate what people actually see and perceive in 3D while at the table with the head well above the balls.
Regards,
Dave
At the Hardtimes in Belflower CA, there's a very good runout shooter/instructor that is blind in one eye and thus knows his "vision center".:smile:
His dominant eye is always spot on.
In the land of the blind, the one eye man is king.
A very good shooter, Andy Scott recently in AZ would close one eye when aiming....try it...could work for you.
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