CTE/ PRO ONE with Stan Shuffett

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If anyone after viewing Stan's video, shares the secrets of CTE/Pro One that Stan Shuffett has defined and refined, they are little more than a common thief in my opinion.

If you have an opinion, pro or con I would respect anyone's opinion as to whether or not they found the video useful or not but to share the secrets of CTE/Pro One under the pretense that you are helping them make up their mind to decide if there is anything of value in the video is a sad and perverted sense of fairness.

It took years for Stan to get to this point and I can't help but think that it is a creepy move to copy his information and share it freely with others especially in a public forum like this.

What you would be doing is actually just stealing from potential sales that Stan might made from prospective customers.

A person could easily help people make up their minds by simply saying that it does or does not work as I have said it does. Nothing more needs to be said.

If you say it doesn't work that's fine but to actually share the details of the video..... well, that's just totally lacking in class.

Stan is actually trying to recoup his rather large expenditure for creating this video and I find it hard to fathom how anyone could justify sharing the secrets of CTE/Pro One freely and publicly.

You would think that people on this forum would have more class than to deprive Stan of what he so rightfully deserves.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
If anyone after viewing Stan's video, shares the secrets of CTE/Pro One that Stan Shuffett has defined and refined, they are little more than a common thief in my opinion.

If you have an opinion, pro or con I would respect anyone's opinion as to whether or not they found the video useful or not but to share the secrets of CTE/Pro One under the pretense that you are helping them make up their mind to decide if there is anything of value in the video is a sad and perverted sense of fairness.

It took years for Stan to get to this point and I can't help but think that it is a creepy move to copy his information and share it freely with others especially in a public forum like this.

What you would be doing is actually just stealing from potential sales that Stan might made from prospective customers.

A person could easily help people make up their minds by simply saying that it does or does not work as I have said it does. Nothing more needs to be said.

If you say it doesn't work that's fine but to actually share the details of the video..... well, that's just totally lacking in class.

Stan is actually trying to recoup his rather large expenditure for creating this video and I find it hard to fathom how anyone could justify sharing the secrets of CTE/Pro One freely and publicly.

You would think that people on this forum would have more class than to deprive Stan of what he so rightfully deserves.

JoeyA
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Joey,

Once the material is out there then people are free to review it and reveal as much of it as they like without profiting from it.

That's called "Fair Use" and is covered under copyright law. What a person is not allowed to do is to copy the video and redistribute it.

A person can make a written transcript of the entire spoken dialog and post it here and that is neither illegal nor immoral.

Stan will recoup his money and probably make a profit. I, for one, will be recommending highly that Sterling put his video front and center in front of MILLIONS of buyers, most of whom haven't even heard of AZB. And I am sure the video will be picked up by many more distributors as well.

I will also be posting it on my blog and encouraging others to do the same. The video will be bought by plenty of people.

But if GetMeThere wants to dissect it thoroughly then let him. Don't be afraid of that. If he is fair then he will take it to the table and give it a real scientific examination and be able to say where it fails him at what point, if in fact it does. If he isn't fair then that will also be apparent in the review.

Look, the only way to get CTE and like systems out of the closet is to have this kind of light shed on them.

You know as well as I do that they are HUGELY useful and for some people truly monumental game changers. But Pat and GMT and others are right when they say they want to know HOW to use it. It's not enough in a world where GB is on every corner being given away like free beer to shout out to the world that we have a great new way to look at aiming but we won't tell you HOW it's done.

Apparently this video is being done with Hal's consent. I know from speaking with Hal that he has wanted to do a video for a long time. I spoke with Dave Segal about it about a year or so ago. So if Hal can't do it then it seems like Stan is the next best choice.

It's like open source software. Once it's out there people can dissect it, rip it apart, rebuild it and so on. But the average users just USE it and when they get stuck they go to experts. And the expert in this case is Stan.

Don't sweat it. I guarantee you the net result from Stan's video will be a huge positive impact on pool after a few years. Pat Johnson will rip it to shreds - but let me tell you - a young Chinese girl got in five minutes what Pat was unwilling to even try in 30 minutes and that with a huge language barrier between us. So what will the impact be when the information is presented clearly from an expert?

I predict that the amount of positive testimonials will drown out the haters easily.

Now if I get surprised and Pat comes back and has actually TRIED the method Stan teaches then that will be awesome. But Pat has stated emphatically in the past that he has no need to try something he believes won't work.

So if they want to dissect it and publish the dialog verbatim then great. Because that gives us all some written instructions to talk about and saves us the work.

In my opinion that is. I am certain that any "argument" over the video content will only serve to sell more videos.
 
JoeyA said:
If anyone after viewing Stan's video, shares the secrets of CTE/Pro One that Stan Shuffett has defined and refined, they are little more than a common thief in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Well...is that true?

If I buy a movie DVD am I prohibited from telling people...."who committed the murder?" or if the "boy and girl got together in the end?" Reviews of all sorts of products seem to give detailed information.

And besides that, does anyone REALLY BELIEVE that a buyer who liked it wouldn't tell, say, his good buddies the details--or loan them the DVD, for that matter?

I'm not sure exactly what "proper behavior" is called for in these situations. If a guy doesn't WANT to let his secrets out then he can always decide not to sell them on DVD to the general public.

Now it would be another thing if the information was taken and SOLD: say by compiling it into book form, and selling THAT--or by making your own DVD that was nothing more than a copy of Stan's. That might be seen as copyright infringement.

But I never heard of published IDEAS being protected--unless those ideas are handed over in private, and non-disclosure, or "privacy" agreements are signed, perhaps.
 
JoeyA said:
If anyone after viewing Stan's video, shares the secrets of CTE/Pro One that Stan Shuffett has defined and refined, they are little more than a common thief in my opinion.
Click to expand...

This really disappoints me Joey.
 
JB Cases said:
Joey,

Once the material is out there then people are free to review it and reveal as much of it as they like without profiting from it.

That's called "Fair Use" and is covered under copyright law. What a person is not allowed to do is to copy the video and redistribute it.

A person can make a written transcript of the entire spoken dialog and post it here and that is neither illegal nor immoral.

Stan will recoup his money and probably make a profit. I, for one, will be recommending highly that Sterling put his video front and center in front of MILLIONS of buyers, most of whom haven't even heard of AZB. And I am sure the video will be picked up by many more distributors as well.

I will also be posting it on my blog and encouraging others to do the same. The video will be bought by plenty of people.

But if GetMeThere wants to dissect it thoroughly then let him. Don't be afraid of that. If he is fair then he will take it to the table and give it a real scientific examination and be able to say where it fails him at what point, if in fact it does. If he isn't fair then that will also be apparent in the review.

Look, the only way to get CTE and like systems out of the closet is to have this kind of light shed on them.

You know as well as I do that they are HUGELY useful and for some people truly monumental game changers. But Pat and GMT and others are right when they say they want to know HOW to use it. It's not enough in a world where GB is on every corner being given away like free beer to shout out to the world that we have a great new way to look at aiming but we won't tell you HOW it's done.

Apparently this video is being done with Hal's consent. I know from speaking with Hal that he has wanted to do a video for a long time. I spoke with Dave Segal about it about a year or so ago. So if Hal can't do it then it seems like Stan is the next best choice.

It's like open source software. Once it's out there people can dissect it, rip it apart, rebuild it and so on. But the average users just USE it and when they get stuck they go to experts. And the expert in this case is Stan.

Don't sweat it. I guarantee you the net result from Stan's video will be a huge positive impact on pool after a few years. Pat Johnson will rip it to shreds - but let me tell you - a young Chinese girl got in five minutes what Pat was unwilling to even try in 30 minutes and that with a huge language barrier between us. So what will the impact be when the information is presented clearly from an expert?

I predict that the amount of positive testimonials will drown out the haters easily.

Now if I get surprised and Pat comes back and has actually TRIED the method Stan teaches then that will be awesome. But Pat has stated emphatically in the past that he has no need to try something he believes won't work.

So if they want to dissect it and publish the dialog verbatim then great. Because that gives us all some written instructions to talk about and saves us the work.

In my opinion that is. I am certain that any "argument" over the video content will only serve to sell more videos.
Click to expand...

Good points, John. The dvd will open the discussions on this forum and put a lot of needless arguing to rest. Players from the PI to Chile will be talking about Cte. :thud: We can actually discuss things and probably generate an interest in pivot systems without selling the farm. Good luck, Stan!

Next guy we have to get going is Ron V for his dvd. lol He's a wealth of information besides pivot systems.

Best,
Mike

Hope Petey comes back soon!
 
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mikepage said:
This really disappoints me Joey.
Click to expand...

Why would this disappoint you Mike? Because I want to see a good man who worked hard to develop and define a marketable product to profit from his work or at least make his money back on an expensive video that he created.

Do you want to see this opportunity stripped from his hands? If so, this REALLY disappoints me.

You've had a good career in your chosen profession and are enjoying the fruits of your labor in a new business enterprise and I am thrilled for you and your success and if someone attempted to steal and copy your signature design pub and pool room I would be the first one to condemn the thief.

Why don't you tell me how you can justify having this man's work flaunted before the public before he even has a chance to make his money back on the cost of the video, LET ALONE MAKE A PROFIT?
 
JB Cases said:
Joey,

Once the material is out there then people are free to review it and reveal as much of it as they like without profiting from it.

That's called "Fair Use" and is covered under copyright law. What a person is not allowed to do is to copy the video and redistribute it.

A person can make a written transcript of the entire spoken dialog and post it here and that is neither illegal nor immoral.

Stan will recoup his money and probably make a profit. I, for one, will be recommending highly that Sterling put his video front and center in front of MILLIONS of buyers, most of whom haven't even heard of AZB. And I am sure the video will be picked up by many more distributors as well.

I will also be posting it on my blog and encouraging others to do the same. The video will be bought by plenty of people.

But if GetMeThere wants to dissect it thoroughly then let him. Don't be afraid of that. If he is fair then he will take it to the table and give it a real scientific examination and be able to say where it fails him at what point, if in fact it does. If he isn't fair then that will also be apparent in the review.

Look, the only way to get CTE and like systems out of the closet is to have this kind of light shed on them.

You know as well as I do that they are HUGELY useful and for some people truly monumental game changers. But Pat and GMT and others are right when they say they want to know HOW to use it. It's not enough in a world where GB is on every corner being given away like free beer to shout out to the world that we have a great new way to look at aiming but we won't tell you HOW it's done.

Apparently this video is being done with Hal's consent. I know from speaking with Hal that he has wanted to do a video for a long time. I spoke with Dave Segal about it about a year or so ago. So if Hal can't do it then it seems like Stan is the next best choice.

It's like open source software. Once it's out there people can dissect it, rip it apart, rebuild it and so on. But the average users just USE it and when they get stuck they go to experts. And the expert in this case is Stan.

Don't sweat it. I guarantee you the net result from Stan's video will be a huge positive impact on pool after a few years. Pat Johnson will rip it to shreds - but let me tell you - a young Chinese girl got in five minutes what Pat was unwilling to even try in 30 minutes and that with a huge language barrier between us. So what will the impact be when the information is presented clearly from an expert?

I predict that the amount of positive testimonials will drown out the haters easily.

Now if I get surprised and Pat comes back and has actually TRIED the method Stan teaches then that will be awesome. But Pat has stated emphatically in the past that he has no need to try something he believes won't work.

So if they want to dissect it and publish the dialog verbatim then great. Because that gives us all some written instructions to talk about and saves us the work.

In my opinion that is. I am certain that any "argument" over the video content will only serve to sell more videos.
Click to expand...

John,
I know that "legally" anyone has the right to do all of the things you mentioned above.

That still doesn't make it right.
JoeyA
 
Mikjary said:
Good points, John. The dvd will open the discussions on this forum and put a lot of needless arguing to rest. Players from the PI to Chile will be talking about Cte. :thud: We can actually discuss things and probably generate an interest in pivot systems without selling the farm. Good luck, Stan!

Next guy we have to get going is Ron V for his dvd. lol He's a wealth of information besides pivot systems.

Best,
Mike

Hope Petey comes back soon!
Click to expand...

RonV had better keep his expenses down and make sure he creates a DVD with a Flip Camcorder in his pool room and does his own editing because this crew isn't interested in letting anyone recoup their investment and simply want to have the HONOR & GLORY of "DISCUSSING" & "SHARING" his information with any and all FOR FREE.

Hopefully RonV didn't work as hard on his aiming system as Stan has or my advice to him is to abandon any hopes of creating a professional video. Well, maybe if Ron's wealthy it won't make a difference whether he recoups his investment.

This crew has my stomach churning. It's the first time in all these years I have ever had a single thought of leaving the forum. Don't worry, I won't but the thought did enter my mind.

I'm sick of all this. It really sucks.
 
I just wanna know one thing, Joey: Were you in all your school plays as a kid?
 
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JoeyA said:
John,
I know that "legally" anyone has the right to do all of the things you mentioned above.

That still doesn't make it right.
JoeyA
Click to expand...

Honestly though it's not immoral to discuss the information either. Hal always wanted it out there he just didn't want it out there in the wrong way.

I talked to Hal about this as far back as 2003.

Do you honestly think that EVEN IF someone were to post up a word for word transcription that people would be "getting" CTE/Pro One easily without seeing the actions tied to the words? I mean Spidey practically gives it all away and people still don't "get it". Others have posted clues that people don't get. The sad part is that the people who should be getting it easier than others either don't or they ignore the clues.

You yourself say that without the lesson in person it would have been difficult for you to absorb the DVD's information. And I don't think that this will be much different for most others.

The whole way Hal teaches to aim goes so far against the grain that it might as well be from Mars.

Most of us grew up on Byrne and similar authors who teach Ghost Ball and the Hit a Million Balls Method. So CTE/Pro One is tough to get even when you have someone helping you if Ghost Ball is ingrained in your blood.

Unless you have a very open mind and are willing to step outside the GB paradigm.

So I see the glass half-full here IF anyone were to describe the method verbatim from the DVD. I think that it will create hunger for more in teh form of getting the DVD and eventually if needed, lessons.

I devoured Byrne. All the books and tapes. But I still paid for lessons to get clarity on the things I wasn't able to master through the book.

Thomas Jefferson said that the sharing of ideas is the basis of humanity. He said allow me to light my candle at yours and we both have light.

On this point I think you are predicting something awful when in fact it's the best thing that can happen.

Or to put it another way, you have seen teh DVD and you know it's going to help tremendously. The critics of CTE can only either STAY critical after the DVD comes out or they can change their minds and embrace it IF if does happen to answer their questions. In any event their reach is limited. If their questions aren't answered to their satisfaction then CTE is in no worse position for it. No big deal.

For me I am finally looking forward to something concrete that I can pass on to others and standardizing the way I use CTE.

If someone is on the fence because of a bad review then one of us will jump up and offer to send them a DVD with a money back guarantee.

You know as well as I do that this information is super strong so very few people will be sending it back. For the few that do, it's no issue.

So really don't sweat it. I understand your concern but it's a non-issue.

It's time for CTE to come into it's own and to do that you have to allow it to be ripped up an examined from every angle.

If someone were to perform an autopsy on one of my cases I would be happy. You know why? I would show the world how much care I put into the product. Sure some of my competitors and some newbie case makers would get to see the guts without having to buy one but the real winner would be me because the world would see that we don't jack around when it comes to cases.

I feel the same way about Stan here. No fear to lay it all out and let CTE stand on it's own.
 
I don't know whether it's morally right or wrong to divulge what's in the video or what I learn when I go see Stan for lessons. I tend to side with JoeyA but I also see the other side where it's one's right to discuss anything they want.

I do know that I won't be saying squat about details of anything I learn from Stan or the DVD I get when I got see him. I don't feel qualified to discuss the details and I don't want to pass on incorrect information and screw up the student and give a false impression of what Stan has discovered and is teaching.

I need to leave it to Stan describe his methods.

Of course there will be "experts" on azb who believe they are capable of properly dissecting every word Stan, Hal, RonV, Dr Dave and other teachers have said and I'm sure they will do exactly that.... that's what they do and their ego's dictate that they must do exactly that. I think I need to be quiet and let new students discover, in Stan's words, what they can from his teachings and not screw it up with my subjective interpretations. If asked I would also be of the opinion that others should just stfu and let Stan teach what he has learned and let him teach it in his words without screwing it up with THEIR subjective interpretations as well as their need to be "right".
 
JoeyA said:
Why would this disappoint you Mike? Because I want to see a good man who worked hard to develop and define a marketable product to profit from his work or at least make his money back on an expensive video that he created.

Do you want to see this opportunity stripped from his hands? If so, this REALLY disappoints me.

You've had a good career in your chosen profession and are enjoying the fruits of your labor in a new business enterprise and I am thrilled for you and your success and if someone attempted to steal and copy your signature design pub and pool room I would be the first one to condemn the thief.

Why don't you tell me how you can justify having this man's work flaunted before the public before he even has a chance to make his money back on the cost of the video, LET ALONE MAKE A PROFIT?
Click to expand...


I'm sure this is the reason you reimburse all those business people who send you "free" pool related stuff. I mean certainly you reject the notion of accepting free product and keeping these hardworking people from recouping their investments and profiting from their hard work, no? (Or is a positive review considered payment enough :-)

Just slightly more seriously, Joey, have you never lent someone a video or DVD? Perhaps a book? I know you and I have had discussions about pool videos. Is any of that stealing?

Lou Figueroa
 
JoeyA said:
RonV had better keep his expenses down and make sure he creates a DVD with a Flip Camcorder in his pool room and does his own editing because this crew isn't interested in letting anyone recoup their investment and simply want to have the HONOR & GLORY of "DISCUSSING" & "SHARING" his information with any and all FOR FREE.

Hopefully RonV didn't work as hard on his aiming system as Stan has or my advice to him is to abandon any hopes of creating a professional video. Well, maybe if Ron's wealthy it won't make a difference whether he recoups his investment.

This crew has my stomach churning. It's the first time in all these years I have ever had a single thought of leaving the forum. Don't worry, I won't but the thought did enter my mind.

I'm sick of all this. It really sucks.
Click to expand...

Hopefully Stan's endeavor will be a success. Hopefully Ron V will put out a dvd! Like John says, the information will be out there, but seeing a dvd is much easier to work with than the written word. I don't think it will be a problem. I know my eyes glaze over when I start to read any instructions. :smile: It's a man thing. Forget directions, too!

Best,
Mike
 
GetMeThere said:
I just wanna know one thing, Joey: Were you in all your school plays as a kid?
Click to expand...

You continue to prod me and others. I am curious as to when the moderators are going to get fed up with your s**t stirring.

You specialize in ad hominem attacks and this is just another case of why your posts aren't the kind that should be in this forum.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
You continue to prod me and others. I am curious as to when the moderators are going to get fed up with your s**t stirring.

You specialize in ad hominem attacks and this is just another case of why your posts aren't the kind that should be in this forum.

JoeyA
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Oh, it's not an attack, Joey. It's a friendly nudge. I think you're getting WAY too dramatic over this stuff. And it seems like you ALWAYS do.

Wouldn't it have been possible (instead of flying off the handle) to try to QUESTION me about WHAT sort of details I might consider putting in a review?

As JB has noted, I COULD (but I CERTAINLY would not) put out a word for word transcript.

I would NEVER do that (in my personal view of ethics I would see that as WRONG).

So, for example, if Stan showed ten different shots at increasing angles, and he showed a formulaic method to change the pivot for each angle. I would write in a review just about what I just said in the previous sentence--plus maybe say something about my opinion of the accuracy of HOW the formula was used, or its basis. BUT I WOULDN'T GIVE THE EXACT FORMULAS word for word. That's not really what somebody would expect from a review, anyhow.

The intention of my review would be, if I think the material is BALONEY, to give enough EVIDENCE to demonstrate why it's baloney; and if I think it contains some good things, to give enough EVIDENCE so people will be convinced about the good things. ALL THAT can be done without giving highly specific detail on each and every aspect of every little thing...
 
lfigueroa said:
I'm sure this is the reason you reimburse all those business people who send you "free" pool related stuff. I mean certainly you reject the notion of accepting free product and keeping these hardworking people from recouping their investments and profiting from their hard work, no? (Or is a positive review considered payment enough :-)

Just slightly more seriously, Joey, have you never lent someone a video or DVD? Perhaps a book? I know you and I have had discussions about pool videos. Is any of that stealing?

Lou Figueroa
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Lou if saying and doing the right thing is reimbursing those business people who send me "free" pool related stuff, then I'll continue to say and do the right thing.

You're pretty good at ad hominem attacks as well. You an GMT seem to be cut from the same cloth.I think they're against forum rules as I recall.

You try to portray your ad hominem attacks as simple humor but I doubt that the moderators will agree if I start making mention of them.

Your constant needling is getting old and I really don't want to get nasty with you but you're making it difficult for me to ignore your mean-spirited comments.

If you don't see the difference between publicly detailing all of Stan's work after the expense he has gone through and lending an individual a book or a dvd then I really can't help you or anyone else who chooses to be a thief.

I guess we just have different moral standards.

If you don't like my posts, ignore them. Get over it and quit stalking me.[/B]
 
GetMeThere said:
Oh, it's not an attack, Joey. It's a friendly nudge. I think you're getting WAY too dramatic over this stuff. And it seems like you ALWAYS do.

Wouldn't it have been possible (instead of flying off the handle) to try to QUESTION me about WHAT sort of details I might consider putting in a review?

As JB has noted, I COULD (but I CERTAINLY would not) put out a word for word transcript.

I would NEVER do that (in my personal view of ethics I would see that as WRONG).

So, for example, if Stan showed ten different shots at increasing angles, and he showed a formulaic method to change the pivot for each angle. I would write in a review just about what I just said in the previous sentence--plus maybe say something about my opinion of the accuracy of HOW the formula was used, or its basis. BUT I WOULDN'T GIVE THE EXACT FORMULAS word for word. That's not really what somebody would expect from a review, anyhow.

The intention of my review would be, if I think the material is BALONEY, to give enough EVIDENCE to demonstrate why it's baloney; and if I think it contains some good things, to give enough EVIDENCE so people will be convinced about the good things. ALL THAT can be done without giving highly specific detail on each and every aspect of every little thing...
Click to expand...

You and Lou are cut from the same cloth. He too has a perverted sense of what humor is supposed to be.

The same goes for you: If you don't like my posts, quit reading them and "quit stalking me".It's getting old and I really don't want to get nasty with you.

Oh yeah, if your moral compass doesn't indicate that you are trying to damage another man's opportunity to make a living, then I can't help you either.

You have to live with yourself.

Please discontinue replying to my posts.
 
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I am curious JoeyA, if the product (DVD) is only as good as being nothing more than an introduction to the aiming method, and you suggest the DVD does tell 'secrets' BUT, begs of having an instructor to really explain the system, fully.

Why are you so worried about someone spreading the word? Wouldn't that just mean that Stan will have more business selling the DVDs and also have more customers learning from him with lessons?

I fail to see the loss Stan would have. In fact, for all the DVDs he sells, it is more like an advertisement for "lessons form Stan". Wonderful idea, have players give him money up front for the DVD that leads to lessons.


BTW, Thanks for the review.
 
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