CTE testimonial

[dr_dave]

Colin

It's great to have you back. Where the heck have you been?

This is the kind of post that can help create mutual understanding and clarity. Good job!

Regards,
Dave

Spidey,

The shot circle arc, if I've understood it correctly, would appear to provide an adjustment mechanism for dealing with required pivot adjustments over various CB to OB distances (a longstanding a point of debate).

It alone still can't explain how we arrive at a 3/4 ball vs a 7/8 ball contact from the same position, but let's leave that aside for now. The Shot Circle concept, in regards to how it affects the pivot or turn, is interesting.

In my diagram below, adapted from yours, does my marking of the effective pivot point at the shot circle arc, coincide with your understanding?

Your statement of "Once you're set in your bridge, the cue is turned along the shot circle arc, in relation to the OB" is a little unclear to me.

 

[dr_dave]

... that is what I think many find infuriating about CTE and its proponents: the claims that it works and has scientific validity, while being unable and/or unwilling to share and explain.
...
Without someone from the CTE side giving up a coherent explanation, this isn't going anywhere. But by the same token, if you're not willing to share and explain, you should stop with the claims and taunts, IMO.

Excellent job summarizing the frustrations many of us have felt over the years!

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

When executing a true pivot from the bridge (the bridge circle), it's possible to miss the OB completely.

Agreed.

The pivot point on nearly every shot will be behind the bridge, but never so far back that you have to move your bridge-- ever. Let me repeat that - "EVER."

This is where I get confused. Do you mean you don't change your bridge length, or do you mean your bridge hand doesn't shift or deform at all during the "pivot?" If the bridge hand remains rigid during the pivot, the cue will pivot about a point on the bridge hand (i.e., a "true pivot"), ... right? Maybe the bridge hand doesn't need to "move," but it must shift the cue slightly during the pivot to create a different ("non true") pivot point ... right?

When the distance of the CB to OB is shorter than your bridge length, you must shorten your bridge for real tight quarters shots.

That makes sense.

Thank you for sharing and explaining more. I appreciate it. I also hope you will be willing to help with the few remaining questions. It seems like we are closer to "being on the same page" than we have ever been.

Thank you very much,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Excellent description! I hope CTE proponents will think this is a fair and reasonable explanation. If they do, I think you might have helped us take a small but significant step towards world peace!

Again, it's great to have you back. I hope you stay for good this time.

Regards,
Dave

Any cue that moves or turns from one position to another can be described as having been pivoted at some distinct point. On CTE shots this pivot point must be behind the CB and usually it is behind the bridge hand so the shape of an arc, projected to the front of the shot circle would always be flatter than the actual shot circle arc.

Hence, it seems more like the shot circle is an approximate visualization method, like, as you've said, scraping your tip along a distant window. This is fine, but it's not very quantifiable or systematic, other than it would seem to indicate that you can intuitively sense the nature of the turn and that the turn pivots noticeably closer to the CB with closer distance shots.

Regarding edges of the OB, technically there is only one edge each side that is on the CTE line, but I understand that one's perception of variations in this edge change if one sights the various angled shots from different positions relative to the CTE line.

Anyway, the more you can explain your method of visualizing the shot mechanism the more I think it helps people to get an idea of how to implement it better, even if it doesn't provide the slide-rule type accuracy or geometrical perfection we might like to see.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin

It's great to have you back. Where the heck have you been?

Regards,
Dave

Hi Dave,
Can't say I'm back with any degree of regularity at this time. Been a bit busy with work and such, including some work as a cameraman which has been rewarding. Also a couple of trips to China and the Philippines kept me entertained.

I try to get in for a peek every now and then, but you know what it's like once you get hooked into a couple of discussions, you kind of get stuck reading the forums all day.

Have moved my table a couple of times recently but still lacking the time and convenience to produce some of the projects we've discussed.

Cheers to all,
Colin

 

[SpiderWebComm]

At one time in my life I had a top secret crypto eyes only destroy after reading cleared up to and including ridiculous security clearance. In fact, for a couple years at the Pentagon, I was the USAF spokesmodel for Project Blue Book (you know, the one about UFOs and little grey-skinned big-eyed men from Roswell we kept on ice at Wright-Patterson AFB... oh, wait a minute. Strike all that :-o

And in all my time, answering questions from Wolf Blitzer, and Byrant Gumbel, and Katie Curic, and Mike Wallace, and Sam Donaldson, and the rest of the Washington, DC press corps, I never once said, "You won't believe what I know, but can't tell you, but believe me it's amazing."

IOW, if it was classified, I'd just say, "Sorry. That's classified and I can't speak to that."

End of story.

Lou Figueroa
but one time
at Area 51...

Point taken. The reason why is because others perpetuate bad info - so I feel like a lone voice trying to let other readers know it's not bad information. I fight a losing fight because my hands are behind my back, but I don't care.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Colin/Dave:

Your bridge is always pretty rigid. If you don't have a rigid bridge, imo, you're going to miss a lot of shots with any shooting style.

There is SLIGHT lateral movement of the cue within a rigid bridge - the base or placement of your cue never moves. This movement is extremely small and does not "DEFORM" the bridge. I really hate the word deform because it sounds like the elephant man's bridge or something. No one on this board can tell the difference from my normal bridge or post-pivot bridge -- and my bridge, imo, is very rigid and tight.

From a rigid bridge, you simply "pivot" to the OB vertical plane / shot arc. You're not rotating the cue - you're turning the cue.

Another little tidbit--- with CTE there is something called a "bridgehand spot." The bridgehand spot is the proper bridge placement for the system. For 90%+ of all shots, this is a constant unless you get close-up. Therefore, the shot circle diagram is only a tool to help people understand how to pivot and to not rotate from your bridge - it's not an exact diagram for every shot- - only a huge majority. That's what the BHS is... "BRIDGEHAND SPOT." That's not covered in the diagram.

Simply put... you're not rotating the cue in your bridge - you're turning the cue. From a rigid bridge, I can produce a NUMBER of aiming solutions from a pivot. The meaty part of your fingers might squish differently - but you're not deforming your bridge or moving the base. You never wanna move your bridge when you're down. If you have to move your bridge, your BHS was completely wrong to begin with. Once again, it's not my info to post. Unfortunately, the guy who clued me in on this is perma-banned from here.

Hope that helps.

 

[The Saw]

These types of threads about aiming make my head hurt.....

Different strokes for different folks... Literally.

 

[dr_dave]

... others perpetuate bad info - so I feel like a lone voice trying to let other readers know it's not bad information.

Spidey,

Do you think the description below from Colin is "bad information?" I honestly want your opinion on the matter, because I think it is a reasonable explanation, and it seems like you might also consider it reasonable ... but I don't know.

Thanks,
Dave

quoted fromColin Colenso:

Any cue that moves or turns from one position to another can be described as having been pivoted at some distinct point. On CTE shots this pivot point must be behind the CB and usually it is behind the bridge hand so the shape of an arc, projected to the front of the shot circle would always be flatter than the actual shot circle arc.

Hence, it seems more like the shot circle is an approximate visualization method, like, as you've said, scraping your tip along a distant window. This is fine, but it's not very quantifiable or systematic, other than it would seem to indicate that you can intuitively sense the nature of the turn and that the turn pivots noticeably closer to the CB with closer distance shots.

Regarding edges of the OB, technically there is only one edge each side that is on the CTE line, but I understand that one's perception of variations in this edge change if one sights the various angled shots from different positions relative to the CTE line.

Anyway, the more you can explain your method of visualizing the shot mechanism the more I think it helps people to get an idea of how to implement it better, even if it doesn't provide the slide-rule type accuracy or geometrical perfection we might like to see.​

 

[dr_dave]

There is SLIGHT lateral movement of the cue within a rigid bridge

Thank you for clarifying this. The cue is moved laterally by the bridge hand during the "pivot" to create the longer effective "pivot length." The bridge can be relatively "rigid" during the pivot, and the bridge should be very rigid during the shot, but the cue must be shifted laterally a "slight" amount with the bridge hand during the "pivot." And the amount of the lateral shift must increase for longer shots. I think this is a very important clarification. Thank you for making this more clear.

you're not rotating the cue in your bridge - you're turning the cue.

This makes perfect sense.

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[kryptonite9]

If pool is this difficult I would have quit years ago. Good luck with the scientific debate. I will be putting table time in to increase my performance.

Spidey, Matt Krah even says things like this is not a CTE shot so I don't know how you can speak on his behalf. He was also a great player before he even knew CTE.

I think I am pretty smart and this discussion confuses me. How could this system be taught to anyone who does not have a college degree? To me systems must be simple to have value. Even if CTE is correct implementation seems pretty tough to me.

Good luck to both of you in the fight. I say if it works for you then good for you. The two of you are good for the game, this seems to be alot of wasted effort that could go elsewhere.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spidey, Matt Krah even says things like this is not a CTE shot so I don't know how you can speak on his behalf. He was also a great player before he even knew CTE.

Things like what? Not sure what you mean. Be more specific, please. I do not speak on his behalf ever.... or anyone's behalf.

 

[woody_968]

Thank you for clarifying this. The cue is moved laterally by the bridge hand during the "pivot" to create the longer effective "pivot length." The bridge can be relatively "rigid" during the pivot, and the bridge should be very rigid during the shot, but the cue must be shifted laterally a "slight" amount with the bridge hand during the "pivot." And the amount of the lateral shift must increase for longer shots. I think this is a very important clarification. Thank you for making this more clear.

This makes perfect sense.

Thanks again,
Dave

One of us misunderstood what he meant by his post. I didnt take him as saying the bridge hand moved. In fact, I think his words were you dont ever want to move the base or something to that effect.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

One of us misunderstood what he meant by his post. I didnt take him as saying the bridge hand moved. In fact, I think his words were you dont ever want to move the base or something to that effect.

Correct.

The lateral shift is so slight--- you prob couldn't see it if your nose were against my bridge. The is definitely lateral movement, although it's slight. Your bridge never moves. Skin shifting and bridge moving are two totally different things. Never move the bridge when it's set on the table.

 

[woody_968]

Fair enough. But the skin that shifting, is it against the cue or the cloth?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Fair enough. But the skin that shifting, is it against the cue or the cloth?

cue...........inside the loop or triangle.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spidey,

Do you think the description below from Colin is "bad information?" I honestly want your opinion on the matter, because I think it is a reasonable explanation, and it seems like you might also consider it reasonable ... but I don't know.

Thanks,
Dave

quoted fromColin Colenso:

Any cue that moves or turns from one position to another can be described as having been pivoted at some distinct point. On CTE shots this pivot point must be behind the CB and usually it is behind the bridge hand so the shape of an arc, projected to the front of the shot circle would always be flatter than the actual shot circle arc.

Hence, it seems more like the shot circle is an approximate visualization method, like, as you've said, scraping your tip along a distant window. This is fine, but it's not very quantifiable or systematic, other than it would seem to indicate that you can intuitively sense the nature of the turn and that the turn pivots noticeably closer to the CB with closer distance shots.

Regarding edges of the OB, technically there is only one edge each side that is on the CTE line, but I understand that one's perception of variations in this edge change if one sights the various angled shots from different positions relative to the CTE line.

Anyway, the more you can explain your method of visualizing the shot mechanism the more I think it helps people to get an idea of how to implement it better, even if it doesn't provide the slide-rule type accuracy or geometrical perfection we might like to see.​

As I mentioned, you're turning the cue from the bridge. The pivot point is actually unknown. You're turning the cue around that arc. I don't think it's flatter or vice-versa--- nor does it have to be. You turn the cue however it needs to be turned based on the distance of the OB.

To me, I can't see how that's feel unless someone has the absolute worst depth perception known to mankind. You turn to the OB from an offset position. You don't rotate to the center of the CB from an offset position (with no bearing on the OB). If you did that, you'd have to get lucky to make the ball.

I think the breakdown for everyone here (the science guys as you're branded) is that your bridge is not a nail through the cue. The cue never rotates from the bridge (a true circle rotation). Unless your hand is made of wood or plastic or a metal hook-- it's dynamic. You can "turn" (I HATE THE WORD PIVOT--- That's what's confusing everyone, I think) the cue to a lot of arcs from a fixed bridge point. Your bridgehand spot must be accurate - or you're forced to move. That's on the shooter to develop that--- it's not a limitation of the system -- it's simple geometry.

Not to piss in the punch, but once your bridgehand spot placement is developed...you never even need to pivot. That's why Stan and some others say the pivot is "over-rated." It's simply a means to an end--- and once you master the means, you just skip to the end. So, that shot circle diagram is something I put together to help people master the means.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks.

It sounds like the key to CTE is the variable pivot-length "turn." "Turning" just the right amount is what brings your cue into the necessary line to make the shot (i.e., through the ghost-ball center).

Makes sense to me.

Dave

As I mentioned, you're turning the cue from the bridge. The pivot point is actually unknown. You're turning the cue around that arc. I don't think it's flatter or vice-versa--- nor does it have to be. You turn the cue however it needs to be turned based on the distance of the OB.

To me, I can't see how that's feel unless someone has the absolute worst depth perception known to mankind. You turn to the OB from an offset position. You don't rotate to the center of the CB from an offset position (with no bearing on the OB). If you did that, you'd have to get lucky to make the ball.

I think the breakdown for everyone here (the science guys as you're branded) is that your bridge is not a nail through the cue. The cue never rotates from the bridge (a true circle rotation). Unless your hand is made of wood or plastic or a metal hook-- it's dynamic. You can "turn" (I HATE THE WORD PIVOT--- That's what's confusing everyone, I think) the cue to a lot of arcs from a fixed bridge point. Your bridgehand spot must be accurate - or you're forced to move. That's on the shooter to develop that--- it's not a limitation of the system -- it's simple geometry.

 

[woody_968]

I know this has been one of the areas that I havent understood. To say that it moves in your bridge hand, even just a little, to me means the bridge was too loose. I have messed with it some, and for me to get the cue to turn anywhere but at my bridge takes a pretty good amount of pressure from my back hand. And I know I cant be doing that right as there is know way you would be playing with that much tension in your grip hand.

 

[8pack]

Cte

Dr Dave i think theres alot of good people on this forum that are very helpful.
And after reading some post on this cte stuff it seems people know stuff about cte and dont care to help but like to lead you along .
I think if you no something about something and you dont want to help
dont post at all.You would get rid of alot of bs from people.
If i could i would go see Stan and learn the system correctly but i cant do to other reasons.If you ever go see Stan to get lessons on cte i would pay for half your lesson maybe all but you have to clue me in on the secret so i dont have to read anymore cte post on this forum.......