Cte

[Celtic]

Look at the diagram. I believe this is what you are talking about, making the one and the 3. I gave most of it away here, if you want the full explanation, go buy the DVD.

Sounds like a scientologist trying to get another person to pay for "auditing"...

The reason this particular topic gets so much flack from some people is the almost religious zeal which it's proponents attribute to CTE.

I watched the JB videos on youtube trying to explain CTE, it is a convoluted mess of a system. The shots JB was setting up were trivial shots to aim in the first place, set up some blind pocket, table length backcuts with at least 3 feet between each of the object ball, cueball, and pocket. I played a guy in Vegas a couple years ago that was using a system like this and he made the simple shots and the system fell to peices on the more difficult pots, especially when he needed to suddenly put siding on the cueball in order to play shape or get a breakout. He lost.

At the end of the day you have a contact point on the object ball, you know that place where you would use a cue to shoot a object ball straight into the pocket? Ya thats the place that the cueball needs to strike that object ball for the most part. But WAIT, are the balls dirty and the cut is thin? It will likely drag abit so you will actually need to aim to overcut the ball a slight bit. Need to put some left hand siding on the ball and hit it hard? Where do you aim? Well that depends, cue deflection varies, how does the system take this into account? What, JB's video only does easy shots with no siding? Hmm, WTF do you do now!!!

Tell me, how does CTE work with 5 different cues with different deflections when I shoot a backcut like this in 8-ball?

CueTable Help

If the 1-ball is the last ball I can shoot this shot with low right hand siding and a medium-soft stroke which spins the cueball to the side rail for shape on the 8, the way 90%+ of top pros would shoot the shot. (The black path)

If you need to get shape on the 7-ball I need to shoot the shot with left hand running english and probably still a touch of draw to avoid going near the 8-ball in the jaws of the pocket, and a firmer stroke. (the yellow path)

The cue will react very differently on these two shots and the aim on these two shots is not the same for any cue, predator included.

How does CTE adjust for the deflection? How does CTE adjust for a Meucci vs a Predator vs a Schon vs a Southwest when I start using the left hand or right hand siding? All of those cues react differently when you start juicing up the ball. It was these shots I saw the guy collapse on, it was these shots that lost him the set because his system had no clue how to deal with the different spins, speeds you have to hit the cueball, and a tougher pot.

You have to hit the object ball in the same place on either shot, but the path the cueball takes to the object ball is not the same because the siding will impart squirt and the spin will cause some swerve, and different cues will cause different amounts of each. Your aiming line for each shot is different for the two shots despite the cueball and object ball being in the same positions and it is different on the same shot for different cues.

I talked to John Horsefal one time about this after Paul Potier taught me some stuff. Paul basically showed how to aim straight with no juice, and then pivot the stroking arm to impart the juice while keeping the bridge hand where it was. This works to a degree on medium stroked shots with a cue with a particual amount of deflection. But what John asked is "What if you shoot the shot harder?" "What if you shoot the shot softer?" "What if you put more siding on the ball by going farther to the edge of the cueball?" "What if you put less?".

This ALL plays a part in the aiming. If you shoot softer you are going to get less squirt on the cueball and more swerve, if you shoot harder you will get more squirt and the cueball will swerve less. The same shot with the same siding requires different aim based on the speed you hit the cueball. If you put less siding on the ball you will get less squirt. If you are using a meucii vs a predator the aim is different, if you are using a Southwest it is different again.

Aiming systems are a great beginners training tool but when you get into more advanced shots in pool they all falter and you get into situations like this shot and the variety it has based on the shape you are playing or the cue you are playing with. There are countless shots where you need to control the cueball after the contact to break out a cluster or simply play shape and that alters the aiming path if you are putting siding on the ball.

CTE might work for all cues, with no side spin at all, but who cares? You are going to need to be able to aim shots with siding and do alot of stuff with the cueball if you want to get above a very basic level of pool playing ability. In rotation pool and even 8-ball you are going to need to do shots like the above alot, and CTE does not deal with this stuff at all.

No pro is getting up to this shot and going "OK, pink line, got my center, put the cue over the toe, a little pivot, and load up with left hand english and put alot of bottoms on the shot and... Woah... I missed that by a diamond, WTF?!". When they actually need to make a real shot like the above they are adjusting for a huge number of things that CTE does not even touch.

 

[LAMas]

"Aiming systems are a great beginners training tool"
These threads are for beginners...understood...why beginners need teachers.:thumbup:

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[Neil]

................

 

[swest]

Again with just the hating. Why can't YOU consider the possibility that YOU aren't man enough to admit when you have been shown NUMEROUS times on here that you are wrong about most of CTE?? At this point, you would be much better off not saying anything about it than to keep on showing your "character".

I can't keep quiet. That is just plain BS.

 

[swest]

I've watched these threads time and time again, thinking that we might get down to some critical piece of information that has been missing that explains things, but they always seem to get to the same point: someone comes up with a question that hinges on some fundamental question of self-consistency, or repeatability, and then it all just breaks down, with the proponents reverting to, "I don't know why it works, but it does. Just try it."

ugghh....

 

[quadrary]

aiming systems in general

I honestly believe there is no be all and end all of aiming systems but far more shots are missed from poor execution than improper aim. If you want to get better its in the stroke not the aiming system. I usually know i missed a shot before my tip even touches the cue ball.

 

[AtLarge]

... someone comes up with a question that hinges on some fundamental question of self-consistency, or repeatability, and then it all just breaks down, with the proponents reverting to, "I don't know why it works, but it does. Just try it."

ugghh....

Thanks for noticing that.

 

[JB Cases]

I've watched these threads time and time again, thinking that we might get down to some critical piece of information that has been missing that explains things, but they always seem to get to the same point: someone comes up with a question that hinges on some fundamental question of self-consistency, or repeatability, and then it all just breaks down, with the proponents reverting to, "I don't know why it works, but it does. Just try it."

ugghh....

No, we know why it works but your side won't accept the explanations. you won't accept our word that we are making more balls, you won't accept our videos of us making shots, you wont' accept the testimonials of professionals who attribute better playing to CTE.

At some point you have to simply take it to the table and try it for yourself. Isn't that how it works for GB? Even if I explain GB perfectly you still have to take it to the table and figure it out for yourself.

 

[JB Cases]

Sounds like a scientologist trying to get another person to pay for "auditing"...

The reason this particular topic gets so much flack from some people is the almost religious zeal which it's proponents attribute to CTE.

I watched the JB videos on youtube trying to explain CTE, it is a convoluted mess of a system. The shots JB was setting up were trivial shots to aim in the first place, set up some blind pocket, table length backcuts with at least 3 feet between each of the object ball, cueball, and pocket. I played a guy in Vegas a couple years ago that was using a system like this and he made the simple shots and the system fell to peices on the more difficult pots, especially when he needed to suddenly put siding on the cueball in order to play shape or get a breakout. He lost.

At the end of the day you have a contact point on the object ball, you know that place where you would use a cue to shoot a object ball straight into the pocket? Ya thats the place that the cueball needs to strike that object ball for the most part. But WAIT, are the balls dirty and the cut is thin? It will likely drag abit so you will actually need to aim to overcut the ball a slight bit. Need to put some left hand siding on the ball and hit it hard? Where do you aim? Well that depends, cue deflection varies, how does the system take this into account? What, JB's video only does easy shots with no siding? Hmm, WTF do you do now!!!

Tell me, how does CTE work with 5 different cues with different deflections when I shoot a backcut like this in 8-ball?

CueTable Help

If the 1-ball is the last ball I can shoot this shot with low right hand siding and a medium-soft stroke which spins the cueball to the side rail for shape on the 8, the way 90%+ of top pros would shoot the shot. (The black path)

If you need to get shape on the 7-ball I need to shoot the shot with left hand running english and probably still a touch of draw to avoid going near the 8-ball in the jaws of the pocket, and a firmer stroke. (the yellow path)

The cue will react very differently on these two shots and the aim on these two shots is not the same for any cue, predator included.

How does CTE adjust for the deflection? How does CTE adjust for a Meucci vs a Predator vs a Schon vs a Southwest when I start using the left hand or right hand siding? All of those cues react differently when you start juicing up the ball. It was these shots I saw the guy collapse on, it was these shots that lost him the set because his system had no clue how to deal with the different spins, speeds you have to hit the cueball, and a tougher pot.

You have to hit the object ball in the same place on either shot, but the path the cueball takes to the object ball is not the same because the siding will impart squirt and the spin will cause some swerve, and different cues will cause different amounts of each. Your aiming line for each shot is different for the two shots despite the cueball and object ball being in the same positions and it is different on the same shot for different cues.

I talked to John Horsefal one time about this after Paul Potier taught me some stuff. Paul basically showed how to aim straight with no juice, and then pivot the stroking arm to impart the juice while keeping the bridge hand where it was. This works to a degree on medium stroked shots with a cue with a particual amount of deflection. But what John asked is "What if you shoot the shot harder?" "What if you shoot the shot softer?" "What if you put more siding on the ball by going farther to the edge of the cueball?" "What if you put less?".

This ALL plays a part in the aiming. If you shoot softer you are going to get less squirt on the cueball and more swerve, if you shoot harder you will get more squirt and the cueball will swerve less. The same shot with the same siding requires different aim based on the speed you hit the cueball. If you put less siding on the ball you will get less squirt. If you are using a meucii vs a predator the aim is different, if you are using a Southwest it is different again.

Aiming systems are a great beginners training tool but when you get into more advanced shots in pool they all falter and you get into situations like this shot and the variety it has based on the shape you are playing or the cue you are playing with. There are countless shots where you need to control the cueball after the contact to break out a cluster or simply play shape and that alters the aiming path if you are putting siding on the ball.

CTE might work for all cues, with no side spin at all, but who cares? You are going to need to be able to aim shots with siding and do alot of stuff with the cueball if you want to get above a very basic level of pool playing ability. In rotation pool and even 8-ball you are going to need to do shots like the above alot, and CTE does not deal with this stuff at all.

No pro is getting up to this shot and going "OK, pink line, got my center, put the cue over the toe, a little pivot, and load up with left hand english and put alot of bottoms on the shot and... Woah... I missed that by a diamond, WTF?!". When they actually need to make a real shot like the above they are adjusting for a huge number of things that CTE does not even touch.

The shots I do are easy because the serve to show the aiming method easiest. I have video of me making tough shots with side spin using CTE.

On top of that I gamble using it. CTE + Backhand English handles every shot on the table.

If you think that there is a shot that cannot be made using CTE then post it. Your shots above are all easily made using CTE.

Here is a thread I started on www.cuetable.com to showand save shots I make using CTE. These are all shots which came up in game situations, many of them when playing for money. http://pool.bz/billiard-discussions/13429-shots-i-make-using-cte.html

I have a 30 minute video of me making some tough shots using CTE plus side spin. On top of that I have a video called JSP test which shows me making tough shots using CTE.

I don't know how you can possibly say that "CTE" doesn't handle the shots you describe. CTE is a way to get to the shot line. Once there you have a line to the object ball that will send the object ball to the pocket. The addition of side spin, cheating the pocket, and anything beyond a pure center ball hit is SECONDARY to finding the shot line. Any player who is any good knows HOW to do all these things. I know how to do them and would be HAPPY to take you or anyone else who claims CTE doesn't or can't work on in a live video challenge to prove it. We can play horse for $100 a letter and see who is more successful on a per shot basis. (anyone who is even in skill with me that is - I am not suggesting that I am better than John Schmidt because of CTE)

I am able to show people CTE in minutes on video chat. It's only convoluted when people like you mischaracterize it as such.

It's easy, find the CTE line, put your bridge hand down on the CTE line, swivel your ass to center ball, shoot.

You can easily reverse engineer CTE from a known ghost ball position/line. You people are making it out to be way more complicated than it is. It's not complicated, it's just a different way to aim than is taught in books. GB is super easy to teach BECAUSE it's easy to diagram. It's not as easy to diagram CTE but it's super easy to demonstrate and any player with an average amount of skill will get it fairly quickly IF they are open to it.

When I first met Hal I was NOT open to it and thought he was a crazy old guy with mental issues. I wanted to get away from him as quickly as possible and go find some action. But there was no action and courtesy demanded that I stay and pretend to listen. Once I did that and started actually listening for real and trying what he was DEMONSTRATING I was able to start making balls from everywhere. If you have never had that experience then you can't possibly know what it feels like.

You can't in your wildest dreams imagine what it feels like to have GB thrown out the window and be making balls using some unconventional method that you have never heard of and which feels completely alien.

But that's how it was. And now, years later through all this arguing I personally am convinced that I know HOW it works and more importantly I am able to teach it through demonstration the way Hal taught me.

So whenever you are ready to do the video challenge I am ready. I have a camera mounted above my table and sometimes enough bandwidth to do a decent presentation.

Meanwhile you can look up Colin Colesno's pocketing test. Dave Segal had the highest score on that test. Take it and see how you do in comparison.

 

[Celtic]

Just curious what your point was in typing all that. Either you have never read any of the CTE threads, or you are just hating. The answer to ALL of that has been stated MANY times in the various threads. And, the answer given for CTE holds true for ANY way you want to aim. But, you already knew that, didn't you?? So, that leaves just the one thing, you just wanted to come along and crap on the thread.

That answered absolutely nothing. I welcome you to attempt to answer how the system adjusts for varying amounts of squirt on different cues, the varying amount of siding, the varying squirt caused by varying stroke speeds. I am not going to go back and read 500+ posts of cheerleading crap trying to sift through and find an answer to the questions. I will tell you flat out that the videos JB posted on Youtube describe a system that can do absolutely nothing like what I mentioned.

And your rage over people who post reasonable questions like this is laughable Neil, take a pill and relax, it is only an aiming system, I am not telling you your god does not exist and that you are the distant ancestor of a monkey.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I welcome you to attempt to answer how the system adjusts for varying amounts of squirt on different cues, the varying amount of siding, the varying squirt caused by varying stroke speeds.

No aiming method deals automatically with sidespin, so it's not a "flaw" of CTE.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

That answered absolutely nothing. I welcome you to attempt to answer how the system adjusts for varying amounts of squirt on different cues, the varying amount of siding, the varying squirt caused by varying stroke speeds. I am not going to go back and read 500+ posts of cheerleading crap trying to sift through and find an answer to the questions. I will tell you flat out that the videos JB posted on Youtube describe a system that can do absolutely nothing like what I mentioned.

And your rage over people who post reasonable questions like this is laughable Neil, take a pill and relax, it is only an aiming system, I am not telling you your god does not exist and that you are the distant ancestor of a monkey.

The "system" doesn't adjust, the player does. Which is why I can and do pick up any of my ten or so cues and play equally well (or bad depending on your perspective) with each of them. I have LD shafts, normal shafts, butt heavy cues, forward balanced ones, etc....

If you want to bet enough then we can set up a live video demonstration and I will make any shot you propose with any cue I have.

 

[Celtic]

If you think that there is a shot that cannot be made using CTE then post it. Your shots above are all easily made using CTE.

Almost every single shot you shoot in this video is an easier version of the shot I showed and you miss more time then make it. You blame the stroke but honestly the minute you are putting english on a blind pocket shot your video itself proves how innefective this aiming system is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhla1mQd9LU

I mean, the minute you get into cut shots with juice you are as often as not missing by half a diamond, you almost missed the whole bloody object ball on one of the shots due to the ineffectiveness of backhand english, which is basically what Paul Potier was showing people and which John Horsefall debunked with common sense. Backhand english in no way adjusts for the speed with which you hit a shot or the length of the shot. You cannot aim the same on a slow cut shot with alot of siding and a fast shot with alot of the exact same siding, those shots actually take different aim to make each one and CTE with backhand english fails in that regard because it will give you the same aim line. That is why you miss so many shots in that video, it is not the stroke, it is the failing of the system.

 

[Celtic]

No aiming method deals automatically with sidespin, so it's not a "flaw" of CTE.

pj
chgo

And the difficulty of pool is aiming shots WITH sidespin more then anything else. Who cares if a system works on shots with no sidespin? You are not going to win many matches playing with no side spin in either 8-ball or rotation pool. If the system falls to pieces and does not work the instant you put sidespin on the cueball it is pointless.

 

[Celtic]

If you want to bet enough then we can set up a live video demonstration and I will make any shot you propose with any cue I have.

Whats the point? I just watched you miss shots easier then the ones I proposed and shots that require less sidespin without altering the speed of the shots. The video was posted a month ago. And the shots you missed were the EXACT type of backcut shots with siding that I mentioned. Rest assured I knew exactly what I was talking about and that video did not surprise me at all.

Stick to what you are good at, you make the best pool cue cases in the world IMO. Your instruction on pool and systems you propose are not going to be effective on getting a player anywhere close to truly good.

 

[JB Cases]

Whats the point? I just watched you miss shots easier then the ones I proposed and shots that require less sidespin without altering the speed of the shots. The video was posted a month ago. And the shots you missed were the EXACT type of backcut shots with siding that I mentioned. Rest assured I knew exactly what I was talking about and that video did not surprise me at all.

Stick to what you are good at, you make the best pool cue cases in the world IMO. Your instruction on pool and systems you propose are not going to be effective on getting a player anywhere close to truly good.

Then take the easy money. I do these videos at lunch time and am usually rushing them to get done before everyone comes back to work.

If you think that CTE doesn't work then let's do the video competition for $100 a shot. You should beat me easily.

Let's do this on Ustream so everyone can see it. We can play horse for $100 a shot. You set up the shots and do them your way and then I will do the same shot using CTE. We can play this any way you want, with a piece of paper to land on if getting the cue ball to a certain spot is part of the shot.

You can think what ever you want to think but the fact is that CTE works. You can look at my videos and pick out the misses and think that this proves your point. But when I make the shots you dismiss it.

You set up the shots and you do them first and if I don't duplicate them then you get $100 if you miss and I make it then I get $100. We can do this all day long. I highly doubt you want any part of me if I get to set up the shots. You haven't even seen the barest fraction of how good this system really is for shotmaking.

For pure shot making with no side spin it's the nuts. With side spin it's like any other shot and subject to a lot of variables. But for me it's still the nuts.

So man up and bet some. You think you already have me clocked based on my videos so you ought to be stealing.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

No aiming method deals automatically with sidespin, so it's not a "flaw" of CTE.

pj
chgo

For some reason, all of your posts seem entertaining with your new avatar. Now, if someone posts something stupid and you correct them sentence by sentence, I'm gonna laugh my ass off while looking at your picture.

 

[JB Cases]

And the difficulty of pool is aiming shots WITH sidespin more then anything else. Who cares if a system works on shots with no sidespin? You are not going to win many matches playing with no side spin in either 8-ball or rotation pool. If the system falls to pieces and does not work the instant you put sidespin on the cueball it is pointless.

It doesn't fall to pieces. Bet something on your assertions. I am willing to bet on mine.

Let's make it hurt if we are wrong. I guarantee you if I lose money betting on CTE then I won't say another word about it on these forums.

But I gamble and bet enough to make it hurt if I lose and when I play I only use CTE to aim with. So I am pretty sure I won't lose if we do some shot challenges. So come get the easy money and put your assertions on the table.

 

[CJFinkle]

ok, I'll bite and throw in my 2c.

There is no "catch all" solution to being a champion or playing national level caliber. I do watch all of these "teaching" DVDs, however, people who expect to watch them and all of a sudden start winning because they found this "magic golden egg of knowledge" will be surely disappointed.

I watch these aiming systems, fundamentals, drills, matches, and instructional DVDs with ONE thing in mind. It is for the knowledge ONLY. To hear what others think, to understand what they understand about the game. I know 100% I will have to disect what I learn, figure out what I can apply to my game to improve it.

I will never ever learn something with an expectation that it will somehow launch me immediately to new levels.

JMHO
Carl

I agree with what Carl is saying to a tee. You can watch any DVD you want, buy any systems out there, but there is no cure to becoming some magical player... in any sport for that matter. I played basketball for years and into college, watched dozens of videos on how do this or that better, but in the end, it all came down to practicing as much as possible, learning as much as possible and hen applying as much of that to yourself as you can. Otherwise, we would all be champions in our given sport! Which would then mean, we would ALL be mediocre!

-CJ