Cue ball and object ball touching (frozen) rule change?

Bob Jewett said:
Well, OK, but if it shouldn't be allowed, there needs to be a specific rule.
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I agree, there should be a specific rule. This, IMO is one of the biggest problems for pocket billiards in general, no consistency in the rules.

Bob Jewett said:
Suppose you are playing nine ball and after the break the cue ball is frozen to the one ball. What should happen? Then consider similar situations in 14.1, one pocket and eight ball. If it is a foul to shoot into a frozen ball, does the nine ball player above have to kick at the one ball? Does something spot? Ball in hand anywhere? Like snooker, where you get credit for shooting away?

Let me play Devil's advocate: There is no rule at pool that will work if shooting into a frozen ball is changed to a foul. Prove me wrong by proposing a rule that will work. I say you can't.
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Besides pushing out (after the 9B break), the shooter can make legal contact by shooting sideways or off angle, rather than straight away. Just because a player CAN shoot it straight away into a pocket, why should they be allowed to do so? It should probably be declared by the non-shooter, like it is when frozen to the rail. No kicking, nor spotting and no ball in hand are necessary. And, the rule should apply to 14.1, Onepocket, and all other pocket billiard games.

The rule should state it is a foul to shoot directly through the contact point of a frozen CB and OB. A legal hit requires the shooting player to contact the CB at an angle greater than, say 15 or 30 degrees, to the tangent line. Or something similar.

I realize this maybe unfair, and as the incoming player it sucks, but many situations are unfair.

Rick
 
Cue ball in hand?

Not to hijack the thread, but this has implications on the rule. In nine ball, if the cue ball is in hand---can you place the cue ball so that it is frozen to the object ball?
 
crosseyedjoe said:
How does shooting in an angle make the shot legal if shooting straight on is illegal?
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The original question (surmised from the first post) was, can or should a player be allowed to shoot into and through a frozen CB:OB with a level stroke, presumably in line with a pocket. IMO no.

What is the requirement when the balls are nearly touching? I would make that the same requirement when the balls are frozen. That’s all, nothing more or less.

Rick
 
crosseyedjoe said:
How does shooting in an angle make the shot legal if shooting straight on is illegal?
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Only by misguided fiat. Some leagues have a rule for when the cue ball is close to an object ball that you have to shoot either with a 45-degree cut or a 45-degree elevation. (Since I don't have a printed copy of such a rule set, I'm not sure what they say exactly.)

In fact, using an angle does not necessarily change what happens on a shot from the physics perspective. Sometimes on a non-frozen but close shot, using an angle may get you out of the double hit. On a frozen ball, I think there is no significant difference.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Not to hijack the thread, but this has implications on the rule. In nine ball, if the cue ball is in hand---can you place the cue ball so that it is frozen to the object ball?
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Touching an object ball with the cue ball while it is in hand is a foul. Under "cue ball fouls only" it is a cue ball foul. (And I wouldn't describe it as hijacking the thread, just as long as you don't start talking about smoking, abortion or Hitler.)
 
I think the rule should be changed like this.

If CB and OB are frozen together:

Normal level stroke can be used only if you're playing a cut shot on a frozen ball at 30 degrees plus.
The only way to legally execute a straight on shot or a very slight angle cut would be to elevate the cue at 90 degrees and shoot down at the CB (properly executed will draw the CB backwards avoiding the double hit). If the CB follows OB in a straight line, or even stays at the same place, then it's foul.

So, basically the the shooter is permitted to shoot with a level stroke as long as CB does not follow OB directly or at a slight angle.

Edit:
Under present rules, what happens if there are several balls frozen together with the CB. Can I still slam at the ball hoping for a slop shot?
 
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predator said:
Under present rules, what happens if there are several balls frozen together with the CB. Can I still slam at the ball hoping for a slop shot?
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I have wondered about this too. See this post for some WEI diagrams. :D

I would assume (although I don't know) that the answer is that you are allowed to do so, as long as there's not a close, unfrozen, ball that creates some kind of double-hit.

Also, I suppose the tip contact time in the shot could not be significantly longer than with a normal shot, or however the wording of that rule goes. I would imagine that the more balls that are frozen, the longer the tip-contact time could potentially be.

The tip contact time from a stroke through one frozen ball is evidently not significantly longer than with a normal shot. However, could it be long enough to be considered a foul if you were shooting through say, all 15 balls frozen to the cueball in a straight line?
 
Cuebacca said:
I have wondered about this too. See this post for some WEI diagrams. :D

I would assume (although I don't know) that the answer is that you are allowed to do so, as long as there's not a close, unfrozen, ball that creates some kind of double-hit.

Also, I suppose the tip contact time in the shot could not be significantly longer than with a normal shot, or however the wording of that rule goes. I would imagine that the more balls that are frozen, the longer the tip-contact time could potentially be.

The tip contact time from a stroke through one frozen ball is evidently not significantly longer than with a normal shot. However, could it be long enough to be considered a foul if you were shooting through say, all 15 balls frozen to the cueball in a straight line?
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I think the proposed revision of the rules does not address this directly. In any case, the intent of the prolonged contact rule was to block push shots as described in http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html as item number 5. It is not intended to address the frozen ball situation in which the player is using a normal stroke and the contact time is somewhat longer due to the added weight behind the cue ball.
 
predator said:
... If CB and OB are frozen together:

Normal level stroke can be used only if you're playing a cut shot on a frozen ball at 30 degrees plus....
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There are two problems with this. Practically, the average referee cannot tell the difference between 27 and 33 degrees. Philosophically, the nature of the shot does not change drastically at any particular angle. In fact, the "two times fuller" system depends on a gradual change of the shot with a gradual change of the angle.
 
I like being able to shoot through a frozen balls because I am proficient in throwing these balls different amounts. If the rule is the same for everyone I see no problem. What is really a problem is when the balls are half an inch apart and it's league night and a 3 is shooting it. I tried for 20 minutes to teach a knowitall girl what a double hit was and she never got it.
 
I'm getting the impression that when Bob Jewitt talks, people listen. This must be the Bob Jewitt that Robert Byrne always spoke of in his books!
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Not to hijack the thread, but this has implications on the rule. In nine ball, if the cue ball is in hand---can you place the cue ball so that it is frozen to the object ball?
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I don't think so. When you touch the object ball with the cue ball in hand, you have committed a foul I believe.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Exactly what is a 'normal stroke'? is a Masse a normal stroke? doesn't the cue tip spend more than the average hit time on the cue ball?
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tom,
I am glad u raised this issue.
I asked this question many years ago.In Masse` shots Cue Tip has a SUSTAINED contact with object ball.Sustained contact makes it a push and a push is illegal.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
... Exactly what is a 'normal stroke'? is a Masse a normal stroke? doesn't the cue tip spend more than the average hit time on the cue ball? ..
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Yes, the tip is in contact with the cue ball longer on a masse shot than on a horizontal shot. But masse shots are considered a normal part of the game. You can also increase the tip-on-ball time by using a softer tip, but that is not forbidden by the "push shot" rule either.

The push shot, as intended to be covered in the present pool rules, is a very specific kind of cheat that most players have never seen. It involves a very special stroke and a tremendous increase in the tip-to-ball contact time. The stroke is not a free-swinging hit-the-ball-at-the-peak kind of stroke. It is a creep-up-to-the-ball motion that does not accelerate until the tip is on or within millimeters of the ball.

Shooting a masse shot or into a frozen ball or with a soft tip or with a still-accelerating stroke or with a heavy cue stick also increase contact time, but it was not the intent of the rule to forbid those practices.
 
Bob Jewett said:
... Should the rule at pool be changed? If so, what should it be changed to? Is there a single rule that will work for 14.1, nine ball, eight ball and one pocket?
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One of the suggestions above was to require some angle (elevation or cut) on the shot. Does anyone have a written rule set that includes such a rule? VNEA?
 
In principle, if a straight on stroke is illegal, an angle is also illegal regardless of how small the "assumed" illegal effect(push) is.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, OK, but if it shouldn't be allowed, there needs to be a specific rule. Suppose you are playing nine ball and after the break the cue ball is frozen to the one ball. What should happen? Then consider similar situations in 14.1, one pocket and eight ball. If it is a foul to shoot into a frozen ball, does the nine ball player above have to kick at the one ball? Does something spot? Ball in hand anywhere? Like snooker, where you get credit for shooting away?

Let me play Devil's advocate: There is no rule at pool that will work if shooting into a frozen ball is changed to a foul. Prove me wrong by proposing a rule that will work. I say you can't.
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When the Cue Ball is in immediate proximity or frozen to the object ball, care must be taken not to make a double hit or push through the Cue Ball. If it is the determination of the referee that such a double hit or push shot has occured a foul will be called.
 
jay helfert said:
When the Cue Ball is in immediate proximity or frozen to the object ball, care must be taken not to make a double hit or push through the Cue Ball. If it is the determination of the referee that such a double hit or push shot has occured a foul will be called.
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Better wording would be simply:

It is a foul to play a push shot or a double hit.

But that is more or less the same as the present rule, since it is a foul to play a push shot and it is a foul to play a double hit. The current rule is more verbose than the above, however, since it tries to define both of those situations.

Maybe you want to redefine "push shot" in which case you need to add a definition. As I've stated before, your use of the term is different from the present rule book.

Your rule doesn't give any hint as to what's permitted or required when the cue ball freezes to the lowest object ball at nine ball.
 
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