Cue ball in rack question

BigDeal52

BigDeal52

Don Pearce
Silver Member
We had a situation in our 14.1 pool league which we were not sure about. The cue ball ended up in the rack. The 15th object ball was in the kitchen but not on the head spot. The rules for this situation said put the cue ball on the head spot. The argument was can you shot directly at the object ball in the kitchen; some said no you have to hit a rail outside of the kitchen and others said you can shoot directly at the 15th. ball. We decided that you could shoot directly at the 15th. ball because since the cue ball was on the spot the center of the cue ball would be exactly on the head string so it (the cue ball) would not be considered in the kitchen. I think we made the correct decision.

What do all of you experts say?

Also is the reasoning we used correct or is there another way to explain this?
 
Well I am not an expert by any means, but I understand the rules to say yes, shot directly at the ball as described.

Really doesn't have anything to do with the cue ball being in the kitchen. If the 15th ball was NOT in the kitchen, then that is where the CB would go with BIH, and then by default you would be shooting out. Since the 15th ball IS in the kitchen the rules state spot the CB on the head spot with no requirement to shoot in any direction.
 
Yes, shooting at the OB in the kitchen in that situation is allowed (but you don't have to).

Here's the relevant portion of the "Special Racking Situations" rules from the WPA (World-Standardized) rules. It explicitly addresses your question:

" ...if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.
In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack."
 
The best way to explain it is this: Under any of the special racking situations, you can always shoot at the 15th ball.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
The best way to explain it is this: Under any of the special racking situations, you can always shoot at the 15th ball. You can always shoot at any ball, in fact.
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Except when the 15th ball is in the kitchen and you leave the CB in the rack resulting a BIH from the kitchen. Then you are not allowed to shoot the ball inside the kitchen, of course. Except shooting in a way that cueball leaves the kitchen first. In a way your right, you can always shoot any ball. Not directly in some cases though.
 
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mjantti said:
Except when the 15th ball is in the kitchen and you leave the CB in the rack resulting a BIH from the kitchen. Then you are not allowed to shoot the ball inside the kitchen, of course. Except shooting in a way that cueball leaves the kitchen first. In a way your right, you can always shoot any ball. Not directly in some cases though.
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Incorrect. You can shoot the 15th ball. The cb is placed on the head spot. If the object ball is on the head spot then the cb is spotted in the middle spot. Either way the ball in or out of the kitchen can be shot at.
 
mjantti said:
Except when the 15th ball is in the kitchen and you leave the CB in the rack resulting a BIH from the kitchen. Then you are not allowed to shoot the ball inside the kitchen, of course. Except shooting in a way that cueball leaves the kitchen first. In a way your right, you can always shoot any ball. Not directly in some cases though.
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Sorry, but this is not correct. You can always shoot at the 15th ball. In fact, if the head spot is a satisfactory place to play that next shot from you might leave the cue ball in the rack intentionally. An example would be to eliminate any risk of a scratch when trying to get the cue ball up table for the shot on the 15th ball.
 
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The rules are designed such that you can ALWAYS have the option to legally shoot at that 15th ball. It does not matter if or how the CB and/or the 15th ball are/is repositioned.
 
mjantti said:
Except when the 15th ball is in the kitchen and you leave the CB in the rack resulting a BIH from the kitchen. Then you are not allowed to shoot the ball inside the kitchen, of course. Except shooting in a way that cueball leaves the kitchen first. In a way your right, you can always shoot any ball. Not directly in some cases though.
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alstl said:
Something was lost in translation from English to Finnish.
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Actually, now that I look at it I think the problem is where mjantti says if the 15th ball in kitchen and the cue ball in rack, this results in BIH in the kitchen. It does not. It results in specific placement of the cue ball either on the head spot, or if that is occupied then on the the center spot. , He's correct that when the CB is BIH in the kitchen you must shoot out of the kitchen but the situation he mentioned does not result in ball in hand. There is no racking situation where the cue ball is in hand in the kitchen and the 15th ball is also in the kitchen.
 
But what do you do if the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is exactly on the head spot, perhaps from having been spotted there at the start of the previous rack?
 
Bob Jewett said:
But what do you do if the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is exactly on the head spot, perhaps from having been spotted there at the start of the previous rack?
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The head spot is on the head string. So ...

According to the WPA rules, "...if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; ..."
 
Bob Jewett said:
But what do you do if the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is exactly on the head spot, perhaps from having been spotted there at the start of the previous rack?
Click to expand...

I agree with AtLarge, cue ball in hand in the kitchen. Because this is the rule when the object ball is not in the kitchen, and the head spot is not in the kitchen, then placing the cue ball on the center spot should not come into play. Center spot placement should only apply in the situation not otherwise covered, when the OB is occupying the head spot (interferes with spotting the CB on the head spot) AND is in the kitchen.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
But what do you do if the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is exactly on the head spot, perhaps from having been spotted there at the start of the previous rack?
Click to expand...

I think the cue ball goes on the center spot.

And if the cue ball ends up directly on the head spot and the 15th ball ends up in the rack, I think the 15th ball goes on the center spot.
 
here's the full WPA rule 4.8 (d):
(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

so there is no ambiguity in the rules for Bob Jewett's question: the spot is on the head string by geometric definition, so the first clause applies. the second clause only applies if the OB is *behind* the head string and blocking the spot.

it's BIH behind the head string.
 
I'm curious if there is a reason as to why the disparity in procedures depending on where the cue ball is when the OB is in the rack.

If both balls are in the rack the OB gets racked on the foot spot and you have BIH behind the line and no break shot. But if only the OB is in the rack you at least have the OB out from the rack on either the head spot or center spot with the possibility of some sort of break shot.

I guess the moral is don't leave both balls in the rack (unless you are planning on playing safe on the next shot).
 
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In that situation where the last ball and cue ball are both in the rack if the last ball went on the head spot and cue ball was ball in hand in the kitchen that would certainly change the game a lot. Folks would be setting up for that scenario all of the time. You would be spending a lot of time perfecting that break shot because you could, if you are a good player, set yourself up for that shot evertime. Imagine how differently the game would be played.
 
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