Cue Energy Transfer

[HawaiianEye]

Didn't you just say that no namby pamby science can change your manly mind?

Prove yourself right - and not just by saying so.

pj
chgo

I'm saying that we have "nothing" that PROVES your point, other than your word.

I believe in science, but I don't believe in what you say just because you promote yourself as a pool scientist.

Do some testing and come back with some equations and stuff, like real scientists do. Or build a R2D2 robot that does the testing.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm saying that we have "nothing" that PROVES your point, other than your word.

What you said is no "scientist" can change your made-up mind. My point is that's dumb. Do you need proof of that?

pj
chgo

P.S. I didn't say anything about your claim.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It's mostly negligible. Energy transfer will be lost dependent to the weakest link in the equation. In this case, the skin of your hand. ...

No. The soft skin of the hand effectively disconnects the hand and arm from the impact during the millisecond or so of tip-ball contact.

What determines the percent of maximum possible energy transferred to the cue ball is the energy loss in the tip, ferrule, shaft, .... with the parts that are closer to the ball being generally more important.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Right on! Puny facts are no match for a real man’s beliefs.



pj

chgo

"Facts" give way to a real man's observations incessantly over human history. I believe they call this "science". Lots of "facts" aren't facts anymore.

KMRUNOUT


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[KMRUNOUT]

It's mostly negligible. Energy transfer will be lost dependent to the weakest link in the equation. In this case, the skin of your hand. Said 'material' acts as a giant pillow (of blood, ligaments, bone, water etc.) ultimately absorbing a portion of the impact. To think a shaft material would overcome the biggest energy transfer sucking variable sounds silly to me.

All marketing b.s. At least that's what my unscientifically tested opinion says.

I recommend giving the topic more thought. Contact with the cueball begins and ends before any "absorption" can take place with the hand.

You're conclusion contains the reason why you're not in a position to draw your conclusion.

KMRUNOUT


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[WinnerBreaks]

I'd propose only part of your rebuttal is that of truth. I agree in that the transfer of energy begins before any energy transfer is lost in the hand/grip. However, I disagree in that all energy transfer has concluded before said transfer was absorbed/impacted by the hand.

When CB is struck by the cue, the cue's velocity is impacted. This 'deferral' if you will is lost energy and absorbed by the hand, CB, and enter a new variable heat (via friction upon impact of the tip to CB). The cue is simply the medium transferring the energy from the hand to CB. Again, there will be lost energy in the form of A) Heat B) Motion of CB and C) Vibration that the cue'er can feel in his/her hand.

Now. How much energy is lost via the tip versus hand versus heat; that I do not know. And neither do you but that was not my argument.

I simply stated that a carbon fiber shaft will only transfer a negligible (if any) addition of energy due large in part to the weakest variable in the equation. Your hand. Yes, the vibration felt in the cue upon impact with CB is energy but is that the result of cue material, the grip, or a combination of the two?

I'd propose the latter.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Right on! Puny facts are no match for a real man’s beliefs.

pj
chgo

Blah blah blah, yacketdy schmacketdy.

I had a lesson with Mike Sigel a few days ago and he commented multiple times how I was gettting tons more action with my Revo than he was expecting by the stroke I was putting on the ball.

He was completely unfamiliar with the new carbon fiber shafts, or even that they were a thing at all, so his evaluation was purely based on his knowledge of stroke mechanics and expected movement based on same. And let me tell you. After the lesson, I came to realize why he was the absolutely dominant player he was, and especially jn straight pool. He knows all the strokes, and how to walk the thin line consistently between punch and smooth stroking.

I am a high enough player to watch Chris Melling play and to see he is just getting more movement with the cue ball with his Revo, allowing him to hit everything just a little softer, opening up the pockets.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'd propose only part of your rebuttal ...

If you are going to respond to a post, you need to indicate somehow which post you are responding to. I suggest you use the "quote" button when responding and delete the parts of the post that are not interesting, as I have done with yours.

As another stated above, you need to think more on this matter to try to move past your misconceptions. You also need to review what has been written and the high speed videos and analysis of the subject. Well, you don't need to, but you will be able to contribute more positively to the discussion if you equip yourself with knowledge rather than phantoms of notions.

 

[j2pac]

I know my Becue will "do more with less" and no pool scientist is going to convince me otherwise.

Every single person who has picked up my cue and hit a few balls with it will say the same thing, even though the cue may not be their "cup of tea".

I was breaking with it last night and the guy I was playing said, "that cue gets a lot of power". I was using my playing cue and doing better than he was with his fancy break cue and I wasn't going "all out". I'm kind of afraid of hitting as hard as I can with this 12mm shaft and no ferrule.

Like the saying in Bull Durham goes..."If the kid thinks he's pitching better because he's wearing women's underwear, then he's pitching better because he's wearing women's underwear." :grin-square:

 

[Andrew Manning]

However, I disagree in that all energy transfer has concluded before said transfer was absorbed/impacted by the hand.

The energy travels along the cue at the speed of sound in wood. The time, at this velocity, taken for the shockwave to travel from tip to grip hand and back to tip (approximately 8 to 9 feet) is longer than the tip-CB contact lasts. So the energy transfer has definitely concluded by the time the grip hand has time to affect anything, since the CB is already gone.

 

[garczar]

Blah blah blah, yacketdy schmacketdy.

I had a lesson with Mike Sigel a few days ago and he commented multiple times how I was gettting tons more action with my Revo than he was expecting by the stroke I was putting on the ball.

He was completely unfamiliar with the new carbon fiber shafts, or even that they were a thing at all, so his evaluation was purely based on his knowledge of stroke mechanics and expected movement based on same. And let me tell you. After the lesson, I came to realize why he was the absolutely dominant player he was, and especially jn straight pool. He knows all the strokes, and how to walk the thin line consistently between punch and smooth stroking.

I am a high enough player to watch Chris Melling play and to see he is just getting more movement with the cue ball with his Revo, allowing him to hit everything just a little softer, opening up the pockets.

Couldn't agree more. The first few shots i took with one had me kinda shaking my head at what was happening. A friend and good 1p player WON'T use one for the same reason. He said the 'little' shots came off too hot for his liking. No engineer but i know what i saw/felt.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Blah blah blah, yacketdy schmacketdy.

I had a lesson with Mike Sigel a few days ago and he commented multiple times how I was gettting tons more action with my Revo than he was expecting by the stroke I was putting on the ball.

He was completely unfamiliar with the new carbon fiber shafts, or even that they were a thing at all, so his evaluation was purely based on his knowledge of stroke mechanics and expected movement based on same. And let me tell you. After the lesson, I came to realize why he was the absolutely dominant player he was, and especially jn straight pool. He knows all the strokes, and how to walk the thin line consistently between punch and smooth stroking.

I am a high enough player to watch Chris Melling play and to see he is just getting more movement with the cue ball with his Revo, allowing him to hit everything just a little softer, opening up the pockets.

That's nice - I might even believe it. But I won't based on somebody's (even Sigel's) off-the-cuff "observation". Isn't he the guy who thought throw doesn't exist?

pj
chgo

 

[garczar]

That's nice - I might even believe it. But I won't based on somebody's (even Sigel's) off-the-cuff "observation". Isn't he the guy who thought throw doesn't exist?

pj
chgo

PJ, just curious but have you tried one yet? If so what's your take on this?

 

[Cornerman]

Blah blah blah, yacketdy schmacketdy.

I had a lesson with Mike Sigel a few days ago and he commented multiple times how I was gettting tons more action with my Revo than he was expecting by the stroke I was putting on the ball.

He was completely unfamiliar with the new carbon fiber shafts, or even that they were a thing at all,

LOL! I saw him a couple months ago at the International 9-ball. He was talking up a storm, and he was trying to tell us all this new secret about the best rack in the world. The best rack in the world.!! It’s called though… Magical Rack!

Thanks, Mike!

Freddie <~~~ knows it’s a thing

 

[Patrick Johnson]

PJ, just curious but have you tried one yet? If so what's your take on this?

Yes, I've hit some balls with a few of them - not enough to notice a change in power transfer. I was really only interested in how it felt and how much squirt it produced. I liked it (not quite as much as my own cue).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"Facts" give way to a real man's observations incessantly over human history. I believe they call this "science". Lots of "facts" aren't facts anymore.

Only because they were scientifically disproven, most likely by scientists. No unproven impression (even from a real man) has ever "changed a fact".

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

sound in wood

The energy travels along the cue at the speed of sound in wood. The time, at this velocity, taken for the shockwave to travel from tip to grip hand and back to tip (approximately 8 to 9 feet) is longer than the tip-CB contact lasts. So the energy transfer has definitely concluded by the time the grip hand has time to affect anything, since the CB is already gone.

Your post and several others along with some information from long ago made me curious so I took a quick look. The speed of sound in wood can be as fast as 17,000fps which would be around seventeen feet while the tip is in contact with the cue ball going with the commonly used contact time of .001 seconds.

It seems that any impact of the grip would start to come into play while the tip is in contact with the cue ball. If that impact would have any significance is another question but apparently the grip can't be ignored due to time and distance. How far does the tip move while in contact with the cue ball? How much does the grip flex or slip during that time?

Perhaps it is time to market an atlatl type device for the grip hand! "Earl, Hey Earl, I need to talk to you a minute."

Hu

 

[Andrew Manning]

The speed of sound in wood can be as fast as 17,000fps which would be around seventeen feet while the tip is in contact with the cue ball going with the commonly used contact time of .001 seconds.

Hmm, I had a feeling I should have looked that up before posting. I was posting that fact from memory of long-ago discussions on here, and I must have mis-remembered them.

It's not the speed of sound, then, that rules out the grip hand playing a role in the energy transfer, but instead the flexibility of the flesh.

 

[MattPoland]

I am a high enough player to watch Chris Melling play and to see he is just getting more movement with the cue ball with his Revo, allowing him to hit everything just a little softer, opening up the pockets.

That statement intrigues me. People tend to say pockets open up if the ball is traveling slower. Are you saying that the improved energy transfer from a CF shaft increases the spin imparted on the ball without proportionally increasing the velocity of the cueball?


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[Bob Jewett]

...
It seems that any impact of the grip would start to come into play while the tip is in contact with the cue ball. ...

The spring constant of hand-to-cue is roughly 100 times smaller than the tip-to-ball spring constant. See the June article in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999.pdf

That means that the grip could have a very small influence on the hit. A very firm grip might possibly make the cue stick play about 1% heavier. It is easier to put in a five-gram weight and use your normal grip if that's what you want to accomplish.

Some people believe that if they change their grip during tip-ball contact they can affect the shot. It would be interesting to see someone with timing that precise.